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Mafteah Apprentice
Joined: 30 May 2003 Posts: 265 Location: IL
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Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2003 12:27 pm Post subject: Sensors output script for 2.6 kernels |
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This script will print your i2c sensors data from /sys like lm-sensors does,
It configured to mine board (GA-7VTX-P) with it87.
Btw: I patched the kernel to show good CPU temp.
Lm-sensors output on 2.4 kernel:
Code: | # sensors
it87-isa-0290
Adapter: ISA adapter
Algorithm: ISA algorithm
VCore 1: +1.64 V (min = +1.53 V, max = +1.87 V)
VTT: +1.23 V (min = +1.18 V, max = +1.29 V)
+3.3V: +3.26 V (min = +3.13 V, max = +3.45 V)
+5V: +4.94 V (min = +4.50 V, max = +5.48 V)
+12V: +11.76 V (min = +11.36 V, max = +13.80 V)
5VSB: +4.94 V (min = +4.50 V, max = +5.48 V)
Volcano 9:3552 RPM (min = 3000 RPM, div = 2)
MB Temp: +36°C (min = +20°C, max = +60°C)
CPU Temp: +46°C (min = +20°C, max = +60°C)
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My script output on 2.6 kernel:
Code: | # sensors
VCore 1: +1.64 V (min = +1.53, max = +1.87)
VTT: +1.23 V (min = +1.12 V, max = +1.37 V)
+3.3V: +3.26 V (min = +2.96 V, max = +3.60 V)
+5V: +4.93 V (min = +4.50 V, max = +5.47 V)
+12V: +11.76 V (min = +11.36 V, max = +13.80 V)
5VSB: +4.93 V (min = +4.50 V, max = +5.47 V)
Volcano 9: 4821 RPM (min = 3000 RPM, div = 2)
MB Temp: +38.0°C (min = +20°C, max = +60°C)
CPU Temp: +48.0°C (min = +20°C, max = +60°C)
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The code:
Code: | #!/bin/sh
# From /sys num to good num
function s2n
{
if [ $3 ]; then
cut=$3
else
cut=4
fi
if [ $2 ]; then
echo `echo "$2*$1/1000"|bc -l|cut -c1-$cut`
else
echo `echo "$1/1000"|bc -l|cut -c1-$cut`
fi
}
# Get Sensors From /sys
dev="/sys/bus/i2c/devices/1-0290"
temp1=`cat $dev/temp_input1`
temp2=`cat $dev/temp_input2`
fan1=`cat $dev/fan_input1`
in0=`cat $dev/in_input0`
in1=`cat $dev/in_input1`
in2=`cat $dev/in_input2`
in3=`cat $dev/in_input3`
in4=`cat $dev/in_input4`
in7=`cat $dev/in_input7`
temp1max=`cat $dev/temp_max1`
temp2max=`cat $dev/temp_max2`
in0max=`cat $dev/in_max0`
in1max=`cat $dev/in_max1`
in2max=`cat $dev/in_max2`
in3max=`cat $dev/in_max3`
in4max=`cat $dev/in_max4`
in7max=`cat $dev/in_max7`
in0min=`cat $dev/in_min0`
in1min=`cat $dev/in_min1`
in2min=`cat $dev/in_min2`
in3min=`cat $dev/in_min3`
in4min=`cat $dev/in_min4`
in7min=`cat $dev/in_min7`
fan1div=`cat $dev/fan_div1`
fan1min=`cat $dev/fan_min1`
temp1max=`cat $dev/temp_max1`
temp2max=`cat $dev/temp_max2`
temp1min=`cat $dev/temp_min1`
temp2min=`cat $dev/temp_min2`
# Edit Sensors Data
in3edit="((6.8/10)+1)"
in4edit="((30/10)+1)"
in7edit="((6.8/10)+1)"
#Print the Data
echo "VCore 1: +`s2n $in0` V (min = +`s2n $in0min`, max = +`s2n $in0max`)"
echo "VTT: +`s2n $in1` V (min = +`s2n $in1min 1/2` V, max = +`s2n $in1max 1/2` V)"
echo "+3.3V: +`s2n $in2` V (min = +`s2n $in2min 2` V, max = +`s2n $in2max 2` V)"
echo "+5V: +`s2n $in3 $in3edit` V (min = +`s2n $in3min $in3edit` V, max = +`s2n $in3max $in3edit` V)"
echo "+12V: +`s2n $in4 $in4edit 5` V (min = +`s2n $in4min $in4edit 5` V, max = +`s2n $in4max $in4edit 5` V)"
echo "5VSB: +`s2n $in7 $in7edit` V (min = +`s2n $in7min $in7edit` V, max = +`s2n $in7max $in7edit` V)"
echo "Volcano 9: $fan1 RPM (min = $fan1min RPM, div = $fan1div)"
echo "MB Temp: +`s2n $temp1`°C (min = +`s2n $temp1min 1 2`°C, max = +`s2n $temp1max 1 2`°C)"
echo "CPU Temp: +`s2n $temp2`°C (min = +`s2n $temp2min 1 2`°C, max = +`s2n $temp2max 1 2`°C)"
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The patch for the kernel:
Use it if your 2nd temp is wrong.
Code: | --- drivers/i2c/chips/it87.c 2003-08-25 14:25:49.000000000 +0300
+++ drivers/i2c/chips/it87.c 2003-08-25 14:25:32.000000000 +0300
@@ -56,7 +56,7 @@
/* Enable Temp1 as thermal resistor */
/* Enable Temp2 as thermal diode */
/* Enable Temp3 as thermal resistor */
-static int temp_type = 0x2a;
+static int temp_type = 0x38;
/* Many IT87 constants specified below */
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Edit: I need to add here the Alarm thing! _________________ http://www.mafteah.co.il |
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water Guru
Joined: 19 Jun 2002 Posts: 387 Location: Zierikzee, The Netherlands
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Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2003 12:44 pm Post subject: |
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Nice, but some questions:
1) Doesn't Lm-sensors work with a 2.6-kernel?
2) Wich kernel did you patch? (2.6, i guess?)
3) How to patch the patch? (just edit?)
4) How do i know if my 2nd temp is wrong? _________________ Groeten uit Holland
Last edited by water on Mon Aug 25, 2003 12:52 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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smiler.se Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 18 Aug 2003 Posts: 115 Location: Sweden - Europe - Earth
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Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2003 12:49 pm Post subject: |
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water wrote: | Nice, but some questions?
1) Doesn't Lm-sensors work with a 2.6-kernel?
2) Wich kernel did you patch? (2.6, i guess?)
3) How to patch the patch? (just edit?)
4) How do i know if my 2nd temp is wrong? |
1. Not in current state
2.
3. cd /usr/src/linux/ && cat /patch/to/patch | patch -p1
4. Dunno _________________ Christian
Sig out of date. Please upgrade to a newer one. |
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Mafteah Apprentice
Joined: 30 May 2003 Posts: 265 Location: IL
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Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2003 12:56 pm Post subject: |
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1) No, Because the /proc/... is now /sys/
2) 2.6.0-test4-bk2-mm1 but i think its good for all 2.6.0 (need testers)
3) cd /usr/src/linux; patch -p0 < /path/to/patch
4) if you get something like 18 or -10
Btw you can compile it as a module and load it with:
Code: | insmod it87 temp_type = 0x38" |
_________________ http://www.mafteah.co.il |
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water Guru
Joined: 19 Jun 2002 Posts: 387 Location: Zierikzee, The Netherlands
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Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2003 1:02 pm Post subject: |
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As soon as i have some time, i'll give it a try. (with some 2.6.0-test3 kernel)
BTW: i thougth 2.6.0-kernels still have also /proc/..? At least, i don't have seen an error on mounting /proc (wich is still in my fstab) _________________ Groeten uit Holland |
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Mafteah Apprentice
Joined: 30 May 2003 Posts: 265 Location: IL
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Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2003 1:05 pm Post subject: |
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water wrote: | BTW: i thougth 2.6.0-kernels still have also /proc/..? At least, i don't have seen an error on mounting /proc (wich is still in my fstab) |
Yes and No.
They have proc.
but.....
The i2c is in /sys. _________________ http://www.mafteah.co.il |
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AlterEgo Veteran
Joined: 25 Apr 2002 Posts: 1619
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Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2003 1:25 pm Post subject: |
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gkrellm-2.1.16 shows correct readings for me @ kernel 2.6-test4 and test 2; NOT test 3. |
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Mafteah Apprentice
Joined: 30 May 2003 Posts: 265 Location: IL
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Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2003 1:29 pm Post subject: |
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AlterEgo wrote: | gkrellm-2.1.16 shows correct readings for me @ kernel 2.6-test4 and test 2; NOT test 3. |
How ? _________________ http://www.mafteah.co.il |
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AlterEgo Veteran
Joined: 25 Apr 2002 Posts: 1619
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Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2003 1:33 pm Post subject: |
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How?
It just does for me. In the configuration tab, I just select the sensors I want to see. I can see my sensors readings in /sys, and I presume gkrellm reads them from there. |
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Mafteah Apprentice
Joined: 30 May 2003 Posts: 265 Location: IL
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Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2003 1:34 pm Post subject: |
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Not to me
maybe it becaue the lm-sensors installed? _________________ http://www.mafteah.co.il |
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AlterEgo Veteran
Joined: 25 Apr 2002 Posts: 1619
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Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2003 2:59 pm Post subject: |
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I do not have lm-sensors or i2c installed. |
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funkmankey Guru
Joined: 06 Mar 2003 Posts: 304 Location: CH
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Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2003 8:38 pm Post subject: |
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gkrellm2 will not work for everyone in 2.6 (yet) because the sensor namespace that gets put by i2c into sysfs is not consistent for all types of sensors.
I happen to be one of those who can't use gkrellm because of that issue, so this script is very welcome (with a few tweaks, in my particular case...)
sooner or later libsensors will support sysfs, sigh. |
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Apolonius Guru
Joined: 24 Jan 2003 Posts: 325
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Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2003 10:19 pm Post subject: |
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I can get Gkrellm2 working with a 2.6-test4-mm1 without lmsensors. I had to modprobe via686a i2c-isa lm75. Note that I had to use the generic isa bus instead of i2c-viapro.
Relevant part of lsmod:
Code: |
lm75 6788 0
i2c_isa 1792 0
via686a 18568 0
i2c_sensor 2624 2 lm75,via686a
i2c_core 21320 4 lm75,i2c_isa,via686a,i2c_sensor
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lmsensors (sensors, sensors-detect...) don't work because i2c-proc does not exist anymore. |
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Mafteah Apprentice
Joined: 30 May 2003 Posts: 265 Location: IL
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Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2003 6:39 am Post subject: |
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funkmankey wrote: | gkrellm2 will not work for everyone in 2.6 (yet) because the sensor namespace that gets put by i2c into sysfs is not consistent for all types of sensors.
I happen to be one of those who can't use gkrellm because of that issue, so this script is very welcome (with a few tweaks, in my particular case...)
sooner or later libsensors will support sysfs, sigh. |
I think i have it too
What tweaks?? _________________ http://www.mafteah.co.il |
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funkmankey Guru
Joined: 06 Mar 2003 Posts: 304 Location: CH
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Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2003 9:34 pm Post subject: |
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Mafteah wrote: | What tweaks?? |
I also have it87, but on ecs l7s7a2... temp_type is 0x31 in my case. also, cpu and mb temps are reversed, and then just compensating some of the voltage readouts a little bit. nothing special ;-]
thanks for this script! (sez the lazy guy that is me)
now I can see that I'm not getting over 50dC in this hot weather and full load, which is good enough for me! |
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Mafteah Apprentice
Joined: 30 May 2003 Posts: 265 Location: IL
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Posted: Wed Aug 27, 2003 5:31 pm Post subject: |
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I think the value sould be in the .config file
maybe someone send mail and ask from kerlen-devs ? _________________ http://www.mafteah.co.il |
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qubex Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 06 Mar 2003 Posts: 133 Location: Portland
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Posted: Wed Aug 27, 2003 6:42 pm Post subject: |
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Mafteah, couldn't get your code to work.. For some reason it gave me errors every other line - even simple if statements were errors! I am no bash expert so I rewrote it in perl. I hope you don't mind. I changed the formatting a bit back towards the orginial sensors output. Until gkrellm gets fixed, I have this in a transparent eterm window in the corner, updating on a 15 second timer.
Thanks Mafteah!!!!!!!
Code: |
#!/usr/bin/perl
$dev="/sys/bus/i2c/devices/1-0290";
$temp1=(`cat $dev/temp_input1` / 100);
$temp2=(`cat $dev/temp_input2` / 100);
$fan1=`cat $dev/fan_input1`;
$in0=`cat $dev/in_input0`;
$in1=`cat $dev/in_input1`;
$in2=`cat $dev/in_input2`;
$in3=`cat $dev/in_input3`;
$in4=`cat $dev/in_input4`;
$in7=`cat $dev/in_input7`;
$temp1max=`cat $dev/temp_max1`;
$temp2max=`cat $dev/temp_max2`;
$in0max=`cat $dev/in_max0`;
$in1max=`cat $dev/in_max1`;
$in2max=`cat $dev/in_max2`;
$in3max=`cat $dev/in_max3`;
$in4max=`cat $dev/in_max4`;
$in7max=`cat $dev/in_max7`;
$in0min=`cat $dev/in_min0`;
$in1min=`cat $dev/in_min1`;
$in2min=`cat $dev/in_min2`;
$in3min=`cat $dev/in_min3`;
$in4min=`cat $dev/in_min4`;
$in7min=`cat $dev/in_min7`;
$fan1div=`cat $dev/fan_div1`;
$fan1min=`cat $dev/fan_min1`;
chomp $fan1div; #get rid of newlines
chomp $fan1min;
chomp $fan1;
$temp1max=(`cat $dev/temp_max1` / 100);
$temp2max=(`cat $dev/temp_max2` / 100);
$temp1min=(`cat $dev/temp_min1` / 100);
$temp2min=(`cat $dev/temp_min2` / 100);
# Edit Sensors Data
$in3edit=1.68;
$in4edit=4;
$in7edit=1.68;
###############s2n##############
sub s2n {
my @vars = @_;
my $val;
if ( @vars[1] )
{
$val = ( @vars[1]* @vars[0] / 1000 );
}
else
{
$val = ( @vars[0] / 1000 );
}
chomp $val;
return $val;
}
###############MAIN###############
$curr=s2n($in0);
print 'VCore 1: +', s2n($in0) , ' V (min = +', s2n($in0min), ', max = +', s2n($in0max), ")\n";
print 'VTT: +', s2n($in1) , ' V (min = +', s2n($in1min,.5), 'V, max = +', s2n($in1max.5), " V)\n";
printf("+3.3V: +%.2f V (min = +%.2f V, max = +%.2f V)\n", s2n($in2), s2n($in2min), s2n($in2max));
printf("+5V: +%.2f V (min = +%.2f V, max = +%.2f V)\n", s2n($in3, $in3edit), s2n($in3min, $in3edit), s2n($in3max, $in3edit));
printf("+12V: +%.2f V (min = +%.2f V, max = +%.2f V)\n", s2n($in4, $in4edit, 5), s2n($in4min, $in4edit, 5), s2n($in4max, $in4edit, 5));
printf("5VSB: +%.2f V (min = +%.2f V, max = +%.2f V)\n", s2n($in7, $in7edit), s2n($in7min, $in7edit), s2n($in7max, $in7edit));
print "Volcano 9: ", $fan1 , " RPM (min = ", $fan1min , " RPM, div = ", $fan1div , ")\n";
printf("MB Temp: +%.1f C (min = +%.1f C, max = +%.1f C)\n", $temp1, $temp1min, $temp1max);
printf("CPU Temp: +%.1f C (min = +%.1f C, max = +%.1f C)\n", $temp2, $temp2min, $temp2max);
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--
Matt |
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Mafteah Apprentice
Joined: 30 May 2003 Posts: 265 Location: IL
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Posted: Wed Aug 27, 2003 7:32 pm Post subject: |
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qubex wrote: | Mafteah, couldn't get your code to work.. For some reason it gave me errors every other line - even simple if statements were errors! I am no bash expert so I rewrote it in perl. I hope you don't mind. I changed the formatting a bit back towards the orginial sensors output. Until gkrellm gets fixed, I have this in a transparent eterm window in the corner, updating on a 15 second timer.
Thanks Mafteah!!!!!!! |
No Problem
Try to look on the files in /sys/... and see if they are there... and show me the errors _________________ http://www.mafteah.co.il |
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qubex Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 06 Mar 2003 Posts: 133 Location: Portland
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Posted: Wed Aug 27, 2003 8:08 pm Post subject: |
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Code: |
matt@madcat bash $ ./sensors2
cat: /sys/bus/i2c/devices/1-0290/in_input1: No such file or directory
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I don't have this one, but all the rest are present and accounted for.
Code: |
./sensors2: line 7: : command not found
./sensors2: line 8: : command not found
./sensors2: line 9: : command not found
./sensors2: line 10: : command not found
./sensors2: line 11: : command not found
./sensors2: line 13: : command not found
(standard_in) 1: parse error
./sensors2: line 14: : command not found
./sensors2: line 15: : command not found
./sensors2: line 16: : command not found
./sensors2: line 17: : command not found
./sensors2: line 7: : command not found
./sensors2: line 8: : command not found
./sensors2: line 9: : command not found
./sensors2: line 10: : command not found
./sensors2: line 11: : command not found
./sensors2: line 13: : command not found
(standard_in) 1: parse error
./sensors2: line 14: : command not found
./sensors2: line 15: : command not found
./sensors2: line 16: : command not found
./sensors2: line 17: : command not found
./sensors2: line 7: : command not found
./sensors2: line 8: : command not found
./sensors2: line 9: : command not found
./sensors2: line 10: : command not found
./sensors2: line 11: : command not found
./sensors2: line 13: : command not found
(standard_in) 1: parse error
./sensors2: line 14: : command not found
./sensors2: line 15: : command not found
./sensors2: line 16: : command not found
./sensors2: line 17: : command not found
VCore 1: + V (min = +, max = +)
(standard_in) 1: parse error
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OK, so the errors are not every other line, it's ever line.. That happens pretty much every time s2n is called. It's probably something really obvious and stupid, but I cut and pasted your code exactly and I've verified it too (visually.) Then again, I'm not a bash-er..
--
Matt _________________ Yes. |
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funkmankey Guru
Joined: 06 Mar 2003 Posts: 304 Location: CH
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Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2003 4:56 am Post subject: |
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building as modules, don't have to edit anything in the kernel code...
Code: | %grep temp_type /etc/modules.d/aliases
options it87 temp_type=0x31 |
this also makes sense b/c in the 2.4 past, you always had to build i2c as modules anyway since the latest versions were external.
qubex' errors sound more like cut-n-paste got screwed up vs. linebreaks than problems with the script itself. nice perl script tho, got to love that perl motto and all! |
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bibi[M] Apprentice
Joined: 10 Aug 2003 Posts: 153
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Posted: Mon Sep 01, 2003 1:42 pm Post subject: |
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It works!!!!!!
Thank you so much for the script, on my machine reads:
Quote: |
VCore 1: +1.77 V (min = +1.53, max = +1.87)
VTT: +2.62 V (min = +1.12 V, max = +1.37 V)
+3.3V: +3.34 V (min = +2.96 V, max = +3.60 V)
+5V: +4.90 V (min = +4.50 V, max = +5.47 V)
+12V: +12.28 V (min = +11.36 V, max = +13.80 V)
5VSB: +4.90 V (min = +4.50 V, max = +5.47 V)
CPU Fan: 0 RPM (min = 3000 RPM, div = 2)
MB Temp: +39.0°C (min = +20°C, max = +60°C)
CPU Temp: +61.0°C (min = +20°C, max = +60°C)
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I know, cpu temp. is a bit high, i should buy a new fan, or simply change cputemp into cputemp - 20 ;D
joking...
anyway, it is an ecs k7s6a, the correct modules are it87 (temp_type=0x31) and i2c-isa.
The fans infos aren't read, they didn't worked even on 2.4.20+lm_sensors 2.8.0! And the VTT seem to be wrong, D'oh!
BTW, <ot mode on> what about hlt and cpu temp? Shouldn't the temperature be lesser then in the bios, after a long time of idling?
Instead is just, say, ~3° less, i had the same "problem" on winxp, the unique way to see the temp lowering was using programs like "waterfall", they were able to lower the temp of about 10 degrees, though i've used them only for testing, as those programs seem to be _really_ aggressive on halting (audio problems, and the cpu fan noise changes when the cpu's idle... O_o)
Maybe that -3° it's normal with a non-aggressive "hlt" use... just curious... But i'd like to test even aggressive halting on linux.
How they say? "If it works... tweak it till it brokes" ;D _________________ jazz lives!
For the italians: evitate: "ke", "xké", "qlc", "nn"... |
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qubex Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 06 Mar 2003 Posts: 133 Location: Portland
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Posted: Tue Sep 02, 2003 7:12 pm Post subject: |
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Doh - due to my bungling of the forums, my previous post was deleted. At any rate, there are ways to enable aggressive HLT/cpu idle cooling. I've submitted an ebuild for a program called athcool (AMD cpus only!) - here is the link for the ebuild.
https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=23732
It autodetects your chipset/CPU. Some chipsets cause noise corruption, though on mine it works flawlessly with a 10degree+ drop in temp (up to 15degree+ on cool days). Mandatory disclaimer: use at your own risk.
Last edited by qubex on Tue Sep 02, 2003 7:13 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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funkmankey Guru
Joined: 06 Mar 2003 Posts: 304 Location: CH
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Posted: Wed Sep 03, 2003 2:03 am Post subject: |
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good recommendation on athcool, there are some other threads where similar stuff (e.g. direct setpci calls) has helped a lot of ppl.
personally I have found no discernable benefit (again, on SiS746) from athcool or the relevant setpci commands -- it seems like mostly people with VIA boards that will be helped by this...but I still think it's pretty cool to give it a try.
I think it may also not be a question of SiS chips, but that the mobo maker (e.g. corner-cutting ECS, heh) actually in the ACPI part of their BIOS has to support some advanced levels of cpu halt state in addition to the northbridge disconnect, otherwise the NB disconnect has no effect (which seems to be my case...) |
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Mafteah Apprentice
Joined: 30 May 2003 Posts: 265 Location: IL
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Posted: Wed Sep 03, 2003 7:03 am Post subject: |
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qubex wrote: | Doh - due to my bungling of the forums, my previous post was deleted. At any rate, there are ways to enable aggressive HLT/cpu idle cooling. I've submitted an ebuild for a program called athcool (AMD cpus only!) - here is the link for the ebuild.
https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=23732
It autodetects your chipset/CPU. Some chipsets cause noise corruption, though on mine it works flawlessly with a 10degree+ drop in temp (up to 15degree+ on cool days). Mandatory disclaimer: use at your own risk. |
Mine athcool ebuild
is in portage _________________ http://www.mafteah.co.il |
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bibi[M] Apprentice
Joined: 10 Aug 2003 Posts: 153
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Posted: Wed Sep 03, 2003 8:51 am Post subject: |
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With Athcool the cpu temp. went from 58°C to 38°C O__________o Is this a new record? ;D
Thanks for the good hinting, though it seems i can't use that program, heard an mp3, it cracked as hell >.<
:/
Uh, i haven't tryed those bios tweak yet though, i'll try them.
I'll even read that other thread... I'll let you know.
Uh, regarding the FANs sensors a friend of mine (Hellraiser), who also started a similar thread on the italian section of the forum, pointed that on ecs (we both have ecs with sis 7xx) the it87 module is able to scan just a small range of RPMS, from the MIN size to <dunno>.
As I have a 2 low noise fans (fixed at 2.5kRPMs), and he has a thermocontrolled one, Ican't ever see the values, while he sees it only when the rpms go above that min. level, d'oh
We both tryed manually changing MIN e DIV values, but with no luck :/ The min seems fixed at...
cat /sys/bus/i2c/devices/0-0290/fan_min1
2657
So... if anyone has any ideas... tnx =)
Edit: Ok, the DIV value does the trick! I changed it into "4" and now all the rpms form 1.8K to 2.6K on my 2nd fan are correctly "read", no matter the "MIN" value, oh, and of course even the 2.5 of my 1st one is read aswell. But i'm still wondering what those DIV and MIN actually do, and if a DIV of 4 can "read" greater excursions of RPMS... _________________ jazz lives!
For the italians: evitate: "ke", "xké", "qlc", "nn"... |
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