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Wiki translation: Small "database" integrated in Gentoo!
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helecho
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2017 3:40 pm    Post subject: Wiki translation: Small "database" integrated in G Reply with quote

A few months ago, we formed a French-speaking translation team. Currently, we are not very active because our translation activity is not defined yet.
We want to translate the articles of the Wiki into French. Our main challenges are to facilitate the cooperation, coordination between contributors and know how to translate.

I am temporarily the coordinator of the French translation team but I am also busy with my activities. We need some opinions!

The goal is to improve the data exchange related to the translations and provide information. You can perceive this as writing post-it stuck to a wall: short notes that inform people.

In fact, I wish to nicely integrate a glossary of translated words that come from the Wiki articles, in Gentoo. Currently, it seems to me that the Wiki translators can not create a common glossary properly.

I do not know how to do it (like equery m --description <package>; eix --description <package>)? Maybe, we could integrate information about the Wiki articles in our Gentoo OS and link these data together.

Code:
Name: Basic Input/Output System update (BIOS)
Homepage: https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/BIOS_Update
Categories: Core System
Keywords: Firmware, Update,
Resume: A step by step guide to update your BIOS firmware from GNU/Linux.
Translations: English, Spanish, French, ...


Feel free to ask questions!
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helecho
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 28, 2017 10:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is there a framework to build a repository or a database into Gentoo? Should we develop a new application or develop "Portage extensions"?

I ask these questions to facilitate the implementation.

Edit: I guess the answers depend on the implementation, so, we have to know the Package Manager Specification and so on.

I'll start by developing an application and then we will see how we can integrate it. I believe it will be easier for me to develop.

I will distribute the source code in my Github repository.
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krinn
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 28, 2017 3:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The "we translate everything" attitude is dumb when it goes against the primary usage of the document : the doc is there to help, it never help to see a word translate in a doc to just see that word untranslated later on screen !

Some examples?
"useflag", i don't care you want called it "drapeaux", "tirets" or any other form, keep the "useflag" term as-is, because this is "useflag" people will see anywhere on screen, config files...

"chargeur d'amorçage" instead of bootloader, and people will get really stuck seeking any "chargeur d'amorçage" on their screen that logically expose them a "bootloader".
"Grub est un bootloader (chargeur d'amorçage)" is ok, but "Grub est un chargeur d'amorçage." would not help anyone.
If the person is aware what a bootloader is, it might be confusing trying to figure out if really "chargeur d'amorçage" is referring to bootloader or something else, and for persons that don't know what a bootloader is, in no way seeing "chargeur d'amorçage" would explains them what a bootloader is.

portage use packages not "paquets", "bouquets" or anything else, people will see equery and any tools speaking about packages.

I could vomit if i see "i-mel", "i-message", or other stupidity like that :)


So my answer to your question is : you don't need any translation framework to keep any consistency other translated word: just don't translate them, because this is the way that would help anyone later when they see them wrote exactly the same on their screen.
You would need such framework only if running programs are also translate to french, but in this case, the framework would also be of no use because you don't need a framework to keep how to translate something, you will just re-use the exact term use in the program.


edit: i must say i'm a bit surprise you post that in english sub-section, but hey, i would had miss it in the french one :D
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R0b0t1
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 28, 2017 4:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

helecho wrote:
Is there a framework to build a repository or a database into Gentoo? Should we develop a new application or develop "Portage extensions"?

I ask these questions to facilitate the implementation.

Edit: I guess the answers depend on the implementation, so, we have to know the Package Manager Specification and so on.

I'll start by developing an application and then we will see how we can integrate it. I believe it will be easier for me to develop.

I will distribute the source code in my Github repository.

Can you explain what you are trying to do? Do you want to create internationalization files for portage?
If that is the case, you should file a bug on the tracker.

Otherwise I'm afraid it's hard to know what you are talking about.
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helecho
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 28, 2017 5:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

R0b0t1 wrote:
Can you explain what you are trying to do? Do you want to create internationalization files for portage?
If that is the case, you should file a bug on the tracker.

Otherwise I'm afraid it's hard to know what you are talking about.

I do not know how to translate and I do not have a very clear understanding how to achieve the goal! Currently, I do not want to translate Portage or softwares.

krinn wrote:
The "we translate everything" attitude is dumb [...]

I partially agree. Our native language can be used wisely. I express the issue here because I wish to improve the translation in general (mainly the articles that come from the Wiki).

I think the principle is to define an environment that facilitates translation. In other words, I wish to provide useful data (information) to users and that are necessary for translators.

I am aware that my remarks are abstract or confused. In my previous post, I was wondering about the technologies used to display information.
However, I believe it will be easier to create a new application rather than create a Gentoo extension.

Edit: the issue may concern all Wiki translators. To be more explicit, we haven't a shared (common) space on the Wiki to unify our translation work. Thus, the cooperative work is more difficult!
Moreover, we need a tool to manipulate the translated terms, quickly. An article contains many words and imagine that there are conflicts about the terminology between translators!
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R0b0t1
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 28, 2017 6:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

helecho wrote:
R0b0t1 wrote:
Can you explain what you are trying to do? Do you want to create internationalization files for portage?
If that is the case, you should file a bug on the tracker.

Otherwise I'm afraid it's hard to know what you are talking about.

I do not know how to translate and I do not have a very clear understanding how to achieve the goal! Currently, I do not want to translate Portage or softwares.

Seeing as you are trying to coordinate a translation effort I think knowing which materials need translated and how those materials are translated would be important, even if you do not want to personally translate them.

helecho wrote:

krinn wrote:
The "we translate everything" attitude is dumb [...]

I partially agree. Our native language can be used wisely. I express the issue here because I wish to improve the translation in general (mainly the articles that come from the Wiki).

I think the principle is to define an environment that facilitates translation. In other words, I wish to provide useful data (information) to users and that are necessary for translators.

I am aware that my remarks are abstract or confused. In my previous post, I was wondering about the technologies used to display information.
However, I believe it will be easier to create a new application rather than create a Gentoo extension.

Edit: the issue may concern all Wiki translators. To be more explicit, we haven't a shared (common) space on the Wiki to unify our translation work. Thus, the cooperative work is more difficult!
Moreover, we need a tool to manipulate the translated terms, quickly. An article contains many words and imagine that there are conflicts about the terminology between translators!


Alright, I think I understand a bit more. If you need a better way to cooperate than Wiki pages I would strongly recommend IRC, the main benefit being that it is realtime. There exist channels for various languages or you might start a channel for a language's translation effort. If you need something that is searchable some of the discussion is probably suitable for the gentoo-dev mailing list but they would probably prefer participants to use English. If there are enough people involved you could request a separate list.

I still don't understand why you think you should create an application. What would it be displaying? How would it be run? It sounds like you are reinventing "man" or "info." Instead of doing that, or even writing or translating Wiki articles, you may wish to look at the manpages for portage. If they are not yet translated they should be because they are the best reference available for those programs. If the Wiki articles can't cite the man pages in the language they are written in then it increases the burden on people reading those articles, and makes it more likely that end users will resort to typing in "magic" commands.
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helecho
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 28, 2017 6:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

R0b0t1, we translate only the articles of the wiki! Translation is an activity that requires significant personal investment.

I think a real-time communication will not help much.
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helecho
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 28, 2017 6:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

R0b0t1 wrote:
I still don't understand why you think you should create an application. What would it be displaying? How would it be run?

The application should display information, modify data and create an history of changes. Maybe, the application will be connected to a database.

I assume that there are already applications sharing the presumed characteristics of the desired application.

At first, I want to use a simple and effective application to simplify the translation work. Then, we will see what needs to be improved.

Edit: I want to automate the changes and checks and not the translation itself (as the translation memory: the wiki extension has this feature).
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