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morrorless
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 27, 2008 6:42 am    Post subject: Gentoo install sucks Reply with quote

No wonder people don't use Linux. the install process for Gentoo is impossible for a newbie. I have spent 8 hours on an install only to find out when I was done that it wont boot. The install docs are extremly vauge. If the developers want to make Gentoo more mainstream, they need to make the install process more user friendly. I can't spend countless hours trying to figure out what I have set wrong. This is why Microsoft owns the PC market. I'll have to try another distro for my server unless someone can change my mind.
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desultory
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 27, 2008 6:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

morrorless wrote:
I have spent 8 hours on an install only to find out when I was done that it wont boot.
Please be more specific. Exactly how does it fail? Did you use grub or lilo? What installation method did you use? Did you compile a kernel manually or did you use genkernel, or did you use some other means of acquiring a kernel? Did you include all of the necessary modules in the kernel, that is built in to the kernel?
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nemectic
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 27, 2008 7:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hmmm, judging from morrorless' post, he may not even understand what you just asked him. Could start with something a little simpler, like....

When you turn the computer on, and it fails to boot, what error messages are displayed?


Last edited by nemectic on Sat Sep 27, 2008 9:44 am; edited 1 time in total
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GODhack
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 27, 2008 9:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If newbie can read HERE he can install Gento faster than windows XP.
If newbie can not read or he/she is too lazy to read still he can chose other Linux distribution: more newbie-friendly ubuntu.com and install it in ~15-30 minutes with ~6 mouse clicks.
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nemectic
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 27, 2008 9:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Damn, do people have to be so arrogant? And before you start talking about people being able to read, perhaps you should learn to form a sentence properly yourself.

I remember the first time I tried installing gentoo, about 5 years ago, took me about 3 weeks before I finally got it right. I can do it blindfolded now, but that doesn't mean it's simple.

Yes, the documentation is very well done, but there is ambiguity in it, this is necessary because it isn't tailored to a specific setup for a specific machine. This ambiguity can cause problems for people that don't understand the concepts properly.

However, the forums are always here to help when required. And there's a great deal of knowledge & experience easily available through them.... But it doesn't help when people just tell them they're a newbie and can install gentoo quicker than Windows XP if they can read, which isn't necessarily true - These kinds of comments are exactly what drives people that genuinely want to learn about linux back to using Windows.
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NeddySeagoon
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 27, 2008 10:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

morrorless,

morrorless wrote:
This is why Microsoft owns the PC market.
Nope, its because business users took Windows 3.1 (the first usable version) for their children and those children grew up with Windows.

Anyway, thats not the topic here.

Tell us what happens when you boot - exact error messages please. Even the complete absence of an error message is useful information. Its fixable - unlike Windows, you won't need to reinstall
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zAfi
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 27, 2008 12:18 pm    Post subject: Re: Gentoo install sucks Reply with quote

morrorless wrote:
the install process for Gentoo is impossible for a newbie.

Not really, the handbook is very, very good. You only have to follow the step-by-step procedure described there and your done. And that's not that difficult. Of course it's not as simple as clicking on some buttons like other distros or OS have their installation process, but it's all about choice. So go on, get Ubuntu/Debian/SuSe/WhatEverNix and take your post with you. Thank you and have a nice weekend. ;)
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lilith2k7
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 27, 2008 1:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Do not feed the trolls ...
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zyko
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 27, 2008 1:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
the install process for Gentoo is impossible for a newbie.


Probably true.

But this very method of installation, albeit complicated and time-consuming, has a couple of advantages.
If you don't see any reason to do it this way, Gentoo may simply be a bad choice of Linux distros for your specific case. The same design considerations that make the installation complicated also apply to other parts of the user experience in Gentoo.

Gentoo is specificly not a distribution that is geared towards making life simple for unexperienced users. "Spending countless hours" to learn Gentoo is part of its purpose.

Of course, if you want to get into Gentoo, don't be discouraged by some of the posts in this thread. We're here to help.
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notHerbert
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 27, 2008 3:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The first time I stumbled across the Gentoo website, I thought it was a sort of jest, or a gag. As I read further I thought "no way, how can this be!"

So I decided to give it a try, and once I saw the bootstrap building I thought it was one of the coolest things I ever saw.

It took me quite a few tries to "get it right" if there is such a thing, even today I try subtle changes in new installs.

So yes, it is complicated at first, but afterwards it is the easiest GNU/Linux that I know of to maintain.

--There are computers and there is Gentoo.
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pappy_mcfae
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 27, 2008 4:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To the OP, to say that Gentoo sucks without actually saying what problems you're having; what exactly is "sucking", is a really fast way to get discounted and blown off. I personally thought, "screw you", as I read your post.

Then I realized that frustration can make people say things they don't mean.

If you still think that Gentoo installation sucks, then perhaps you need to earn some chops with something that isn't as challenging; like Ubuntu, Slackware, or any of the other myriad binary distros out there. If; however, you are calmed down from your fit, let me tell you a few things.

First, in the grand scheme of things, the Gentoo install process is much more straightforward than any other install. You take a fully prepared file system with all necessary programs and expand in on a hard drive, install a kernel and some support programs, reboot, and you're done.

Secondly, Gentoo is NOT for everyone. It requires patience, perseverance, and a cool head.

Thirdly, it requires the ability and willingness to learn. If you are unwilling or unable to read and learn, be it from the documents (which are superior to any other I've read) or from the forums, then you have no hope of getting Gentoo running.

As for the wherefores and whys of Microsoft, who cares? You can go to "off the wall", and slam Windoze as much as you like, and I'm sure you'll get a willing chorus behind you. It's not going to change their market share, nor is it going to get your one step closer to installing Gentoo.

So, you can waste time griping, or you can work on installing Gentoo. Frankly, I don't care which you do. If you want to install, there are lots of people who are willing to help, even in spite of your attitude. If not, sorry Gentoo isn't for you.

Blessed be!
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chr0n0
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 28, 2008 7:50 pm    Post subject: Re: Gentoo install sucks Reply with quote

morrorless wrote:
No wonder people don't use Linux. the install process for Gentoo is impossible for a newbie. I have spent 8 hours on an install only to find out when I was done that it wont boot.


First off, what kind of install did you attempt? Did you use a LiveCD with a graphical installer or did you try one of the stages? The graphical installer, imo, is not very good. It's much better to use the minimal CD with a stage tarball.

Secondly, if you are new to *nix, Gentoo probably will not be for you. You should cut your teeth with ubuntu or SuSe for a few months first so that you can become familiar with some of the terminology and how Linux works at the core. You should try compiling a kernel, installing some apps from source, etc. Then come back to Gentoo and try it.
Quote:

The install docs are extremly vauge.


I guess we are reading different docs. Gentoo has the most extensive documentation I have seen for any Linux distro (even more than Ubuntu). Moreover, the quality of the documentation is higher than most other distros. If you follow the Gentoo Handbook for your specific architecture, you will be able to get a successful install up and running.

Quote:
If the developers want to make Gentoo more mainstream, they need to make the install process more user friendly. I can't spend countless hours trying to figure out what I have set wrong.


There are trade-offs in everything in life. If you want the most customizable and optimized Linux possible, then you are going to have to read, tinker and tweak. Yes, it is time consuming at first, but after you do it a few times, you will notice that you will be able to install without a hitch. It took me a few tries and numerous hours to get my first Gentoo stage installed and running.

Quote:
This is why Microsoft owns the PC market. I'll have to try another distro for my server unless someone can change my mind.


Yes, M$ peddles their product to computer illiterates. This is no secret. Again it's a trade-off. With M$ you get "point and click" but you also get the most insecure computing platform ever devised along with tons of DRM and hidden services that phone home.
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szczerb
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 28, 2008 9:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Secondly, if you are new to *nix, Gentoo probably will not be for you.

I strongly disagree. Gentoo is my first linux distro and I managed my first install without serious trouble (ok, I did reboot 3 times until I made a correct kernel :lol:). And I still have no idea how to compile and install a program from source - never needed to do it manually.

It's just a matter of patience and eagerness (did I misspell?) to read and learn.
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wesw02
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 28, 2008 10:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

@szczerb

Gentoo was your first distro?! Wow, hats off to you.
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szczerb
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 28, 2008 10:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks, but I don't really see why ;]

Gentoo has the best docs and it has the best/easiest/clearest tools for managing a system (etc-update, rc-update etc. and portage) and it has use flags. So after I spent some time to wrap my brain around it, its almost to smooth ;]

By stating that it's my first distro I mean the first I really used. I tried RH, Mandrake and PLD (oh that one was a pain for a noob....it welcomed me with no xorg.conf (at least I guess so now...), no display manager and the docs where a mess...) before it but I couldn't find myself there....and I tossed each of them not more then 2 hours after installation.
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jordanwb
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 29, 2008 3:17 am    Post subject: Re: Gentoo install sucks Reply with quote

morrorless wrote:
the install process for Gentoo is impossible for a newbie.


What are you talking about?! The first time I tried Gentoo I got everything working except I forgot the drivers for my disk controller.

lilith2k7 wrote:
Do not feed the trolls ...


I'm not sure if he's being troll-ish intentionally.
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d2_racing
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 29, 2008 3:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The first time that I have installed Gentoo, I was crazy :P I read all the manuals that were related with my box : http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/list.xml

After that, I read the handbook 2-3 times and I compiled also my first kernel with my first installation too.

And I was a newbie too from Fedora Core 2...
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platojones
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 29, 2008 3:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Let me just put the OP in perspective here folks...this is the first and only post this guy has ever made. He never came to ask for help. We've seen countless examples of this time and again...understand...he is not asking for help at this point (anyone who posts with a title like that isn't asking for help...they are asking for attention). He is whining because he thinks all of you owe him something, but failed to read his mind and give it to him...he isn't even willing to make the effort to ask for it in a courtious, polite and honest way. He's given up...good! Goodbye...and best of luck with Vista or Ubunto or whatever OS you are off to. It was a meaningless, worthless, drive-by post that was meant as an insult...not a legitimate request for help. How do I know this? He has yet to respond to a single word of advice or encouragement the good people here have left for him. This guy probably has never gotten anything working in his life...and based on his attitude, he never will.
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Cyker
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 29, 2008 11:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well that's a good attitude... :roll:

Moo I say! Moo!!

To be fair, Gentoo's installer does suck, but mainly this is because it doesn't have one :P

This is not a distro for raw newbies and people who want something done 'quick and dirty'; You need to have some levels of hacker/techie to be able to even attempt to understand the documentation - Blindingly following the handbook will not give you a usable system as it glosses over lots of things, expecting you to be competent enough to go and research those parts on your own. This also means you need lots of time - Installing Gentoo is a lot like taking a short course on Linux basics :P


However, we're not here to decide what distro someone should put on their server; That's up to them. We just help people who ask polite directed questions.
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zAfi
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 29, 2008 4:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

@platojones: You're completely right. But it's interesting to read the success storys and/or problems other people had with their first gentoo install.
It took me three installs in two weeks to boot properly into kde and since then...nothing can stop me. stage4 installs, resizing of partitions, dm-crypt, tuxonice...all peanuts on gentoo...
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 29, 2008 6:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Gentoo was your first distro?! Wow, hats off to you.


Gentoo is basically my first (and only) distro. I mean mandrake and redhat were too troublesome to install mythtv on a 2 processor machine in early 2004 because both of these resulted in a lot of rpm hell and incompatible packages. Although gentoo took several evenings to install it everything worked right out of the box. I did a stage 1 install, this was easy for me, however I am a programmer.
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NathanZachary
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2008 4:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Moved from Installing Gentoo to Gentoo Chat as this thread has turned into more of an installation-related discussion.
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 05, 2008 12:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gentoo was my first distro (and yep, I'm still using it now). In fact, I picked it because I liked the idea of control and speed. I was without a computer and wanted a working system asap. Little did I know what I was going to when I chose Gentoo hahahaha :)

Mainly because the 50mb seemed like the fastest download. Well, the 3 day installation process was ... very fun. I didn't even know what the terminal was, what ls, cd, mv, cp, or anything was. I remember checking repeatedly if I typed the right command.

However, I must say I am astounded at how amazingly detailed and simple to follow the installation manual is. It really helped. I think the main reasons people fail to use it is because they think they know better and choose to skip steps, skip reading paragraphs, or simply don't read through the page throughout enough to make sure they haven't missed anything.
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 05, 2008 12:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

awwwww did the poor person have read a few pages ? didn't it quite go to plan? awww didums, couldn't do it so lets slag the distro off. ignorance must be bliss ........
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 05, 2008 2:54 pm    Post subject: Re: Gentoo install sucks Reply with quote

morrorless wrote:
the install process for Gentoo is impossible for a newbie.

<SevenDayLateTroll>welcome to no duh-ville!</SevenDayLateTroll> :lol:
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