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d2_racing
Bodhisattva
Joined: 25 Apr 2005
Posts: 13047
Location: Ste-Foy,Canada
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 Posted: Fri Sep 26, 2008 8:55 pm Post subject: |
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| If you have read the message from a former dev, I think that this thing is not on a good start at all. |
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zaccret
n00b
Joined: 07 Dec 2007
Posts: 18
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| Posted: Fri Sep 26, 2008 9:38 pm Post subject: |
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| d2_racing wrote: | | If you have read the message from a former dev, I think that this thing is not on a good start at all. |
As you said, this is a start and this is one dev. I think we should be patient, they've just changed the strategy a few days ago. |
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d2_racing
Bodhisattva
Joined: 25 Apr 2005
Posts: 13047
Location: Ste-Foy,Canada
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| Posted: Fri Sep 26, 2008 10:30 pm Post subject: |
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Maybe, but this dev is not a normal dev. He was the leader of the Releng, so I think that this kind of comment can have some impact here.
I have read the reply from DR and I don't think it will be a walk in the park.... |
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Etal
Veteran
Joined: 15 Jul 2005
Posts: 1931
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| Posted: Fri Sep 26, 2008 11:08 pm Post subject: |
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| d2_racing wrote: | Maybe, but this dev is not a normal dev. He was the leader of the Releng, so I think that this kind of comment can have some impact here.
I have read the reply from DR and I don't think it will be a walk in the park.... |
As far as I understand, he left Gentoo, and now they decided to change the release policy...
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nixnut
Bodhisattva
Joined: 09 Apr 2004
Posts: 10974
Location: the dutch mountains
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| Posted: Sat Sep 27, 2008 8:06 am Post subject: |
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| AM088 wrote: | | As far as I understand, he left Gentoo, and now they decided to change the release policy... |
Don't confuse a temporal order of events as a causal relationship between them. The idea to change how releases are done is not related to wolfo's retirement. He was actually trying to make that change happen.
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Last edited by nixnut on Sat Sep 27, 2008 5:34 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Moonboots
Apprentice
Joined: 02 Dec 2006
Posts: 161
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| Posted: Sat Sep 27, 2008 12:17 pm Post subject: |
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| I find it difficult to read the intentions of DR , friend or foe ? |
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rogerx
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 06 Apr 2004
Posts: 118
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| Posted: Sun Sep 28, 2008 8:40 am Post subject: |
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[quote="dirk_salewski"]There's one thing that caught my attention above all:
| Quote: | ... opment of the installer had to stop - it would just be more a related project than an official one, like e.g. paludis.
The best way to do it would probably be to make a poll about this. If it turns out that the installer is considered not necessary by the majority of the current user base but frequent releases or up-to-date firefox are, then I'd proceed accordingly. Happy users are the best advertisement for the project. So, if the overstretching of resources can be resolved in such a way, I'd second this proposition: https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-700118-highlight-installer.html
Greetings,
Dirk |
I agree. Also think the text ui installer is more then adequate. Too many things have gone wrong with gui based installers in the past 10+ years with other distros. (more time spent with eye-candy, rather then trying to fix more important bugs!)
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http://rogerx.freeshell.org/ |
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arth1
n00b
Joined: 29 Nov 2006
Posts: 24
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| Posted: Sun Sep 28, 2008 2:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Xake wrote: | | cassiol wrote: | for the minimal CD does not get too big maybe two minimal cds: desktop minimal cd and server minimal cd
are only ideias. |
And what should de diffrence between them be? |
What Gentoo sorely lacks is a CD for headless installation on servers. Just try launching an installation CD with the serial hooked up to a term, and see how far you get. It's a shame that you first have to do a minimal install of another distro because the design of the Gentoo CDs makes the assumption that you have a graphics card and directly connected keyboard or mouse, Microsoft Windows style. |
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bastibasti
Guru
Joined: 27 Nov 2006
Posts: 581
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| Posted: Mon Sep 29, 2008 6:23 am Post subject: |
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Hey Guys.
I havent used the Gentoo Install CD for Ages. I usually build my own Live CD and its really easy as I use a script (from linux-live.org) to build the CD. Like that you install a normal Gentoo with all the apps and just build the CD from it. Each directory gives you a module. You could for example updte the kernel by exchanging one module. The system uses AUFS, and like that you dont need to change anything on the install to make it work on the CD. |
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bladewing678
n00b
Joined: 29 Sep 2008
Posts: 2
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| Posted: Mon Sep 29, 2008 2:50 pm Post subject: |
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First of all, I apreciate the idea of weekly builds since I like the funtoo ones.
I have no use of the minimal CD, since I have a customly built CD which starts ssh and sends me a message including the DHCP IP etc.
So, I think the new prioritys are set well, BUT I'd like to be able to use Firefox 3 without switching my whole system to unstable 
Gentoo is the only distri that really fits to me, since it's so customizeable, so go on devs, you are on the right way.
This is my last year of High-School, when I'll go to College I should have enough spare time to support the project (skills in C, C++, C#, python, java, bash and basic)
Till then
bladewing *tumbs up* |
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srunni
Guru
Joined: 26 Dec 2007
Posts: 365
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| Posted: Mon Sep 29, 2008 5:21 pm Post subject: |
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I really don't see the need for a minimal CD. I always use SystemRescueCD installed to a USB flash drive, since it has a GUI, allowing me to browse the docs with Firefox.
What I would like to see is more frequent stage releases. Right now, I use drobbins' stages from funtoo.org, because the official ones are severely outdated. It would be nice to see ``official'' frequent stage releases.
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bastibasti
Guru
Joined: 27 Nov 2006
Posts: 581
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| Posted: Mon Sep 29, 2008 9:32 pm Post subject: |
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I think it makes a whole lotta traffic also on the mirrors. Why not providing a kind of script that installs a fresh stage3 into /mnt/gentoo from scratch? the LiveCD would have a gentoo system containing all build tools like portage tree and emerge etc, an would use ROOT=/mnt/gentoo
like this, you would not need to provide a stage3 and also you would build your own stage with the flags you want. |
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djotaku
n00b
Joined: 30 Sep 2008
Posts: 1
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| Posted: Tue Sep 30, 2008 4:03 am Post subject: |
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I'm curious what this means for Linux Magazines. They usually include distros that have recently released. What will be the release that gets them to put Gentoo on the cover disc and review the latest version. Perhaps for press release purposes there should be an official release at least yearly.
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bastibasti
Guru
Joined: 27 Nov 2006
Posts: 581
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| Posted: Tue Sep 30, 2008 5:58 am Post subject: |
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Yeah lets do a live cd each year with some cool edge-cutting software on it (everyone can see the good performance of gentoo) and an independent installer that will be included. I know it is totally against gentoo's philosophy to provide a binary installed system, but maybe there should also be a bunch of pr-compiled packets like X and DE's for a quick start. later the consumer could recompile.
I would offer my help on building this kinda live cd cause i feel like giving something back to the community...
I think the make.conf should be editable by GUI (cpu detection if non-i686 is wanted etc) but i guess writing some gui would take some time as there is enough time beeing spend on maintaining the portage tree. |
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andip
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 18 Jun 2002
Posts: 116
Location: .no
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| Posted: Tue Sep 30, 2008 10:33 am Post subject: |
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im sorry if i've misunderstood things here, but why the fuck do you wanna focus on what's on the CD's? i mean, who the hell cares? once you've done very basic installing, you do "emerge --sync" before starting updating, and at that point you're totally off the cd's afaik.
imo it would be FAR better use of resources to focus on keeping portage _up to date_! something it's not been in ages. 2 very good examples that i know of would be firefox and kde. both are waaaaaaaaaaaaaay out of date in official portage. never mind what you can get by using overlays and keywords etc.
as you might be able to see, i've been using gentoo for quite a while, and have had few complaints, but this seems like a gross misplacement of effort.. i'm just hoping i've misread something, or missed something else completely, and thus misunderstood this topic. |
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balkira
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 25 Dec 2004
Posts: 116
Location: /local/pub
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| Posted: Tue Sep 30, 2008 2:21 pm Post subject: |
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| andip wrote: | | but why the fuck do you wanna focus on what's on the CD's? |
I think there is a confusion between the purpose of a livecd and the purpose of an installcd (even though we merged them in a single cd). For a livecd we have to focus on the content (X/wm hardware detection). As for an installcd, one has no content (the net installer) and the other one (the offline installer) just has tarballs (or bins whatever).
My point is that the content of a livecd (blingbling compiz kde/gnome/wifi neat kernel modules) appears as a "frontshop" saying "hey if you install me here's what you can get" to all the people willing to try Gentoo: in my opinion, Gentoo has to focus on that at some degree.
| andip wrote: | | i mean, who the hell cares? once you've done very basic installing, you do "emerge --sync" before starting updating, and at that point you're totally off the cd's afaik. |
The newcomers care. They want to see the livecd first before diving into the mechanics (read hassle of change/learning) of adopting Gentoo. For well aware Gentooists, you're right, we do not have the same approach, a --sync is all we need.
| andip wrote: | | imo it would be FAR better use of resources to focus on keeping portage _up to date_! something it's not been in ages. |
Well an update a day is well enough for me, depends on the use.
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baaann
Guru
Joined: 23 Jan 2006
Posts: 558
Location: uk
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| Posted: Tue Sep 30, 2008 4:07 pm Post subject: |
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| How would you present the typical Gentoo experience? Not only does it evolve constantly and therefore not fitting the constraints of a release cycle, but the multitude of install options available mean that to truly represent, a number of liveCD's would be required. If it is to draw new users, then I think that a minimal graphical cd including new media(possibly similar to the google chrome comic) as a means of demonstrating Gentoo's advantages, would be more beneficial |
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onefriedrice
n00b
Joined: 26 Aug 2007
Posts: 57
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| Posted: Tue Sep 30, 2008 7:06 pm Post subject: |
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| bladewing678 wrote: | | So, I think the new prioritys are set well, BUT I'd like to be able to use Firefox 3 without switching my whole system to unstable |
You do know that you can emerge unstable packages on a per-package basis, right? Or are you making a joke that there are so many packages (xulrunner, etc) that you have to switch to unstable, that it's virtually as if your whole system is switched to unstable? I can't tell which because you seem to know what you're talking about, but you also only have one post. Meh, whatever. |
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arth1
n00b
Joined: 29 Nov 2006
Posts: 24
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| Posted: Tue Sep 30, 2008 7:25 pm Post subject: |
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| srunni wrote: | | I really don't see the need for a minimal CD. I always use SystemRescueCD installed to a USB flash drive, since it has a GUI, allowing me to browse the docs with Firefox. |
Chicken-and-egg situation. You can't install from a bootable USB stick until you have installed a system you can produce the bootable USB stick with.
As for using Firefox for reading docs, that's all well and fine on a laptop or workstation, but it won't do you much good if you're connected to a headless server through a tty. |
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srunni
Guru
Joined: 26 Dec 2007
Posts: 365
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| Posted: Tue Sep 30, 2008 7:29 pm Post subject: |
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| arth1 wrote: | | srunni wrote: | | I really don't see the need for a minimal CD. I always use SystemRescueCD installed to a USB flash drive, since it has a GUI, allowing me to browse the docs with Firefox. |
Chicken-and-egg situation. You can't install from a bootable USB stick until you have installed a system you can produce the bootable USB stick with. |
But that's no different from using optical media - you need a working system to burn the optical medium from.
| arth1 wrote: | | As for using Firefox for reading docs, that's all well and fine on a laptop or workstation, but it won't do you much good if you're connected to a headless server through a tty. |
And SystemRescueCD has OpenSSHD available. It's not like it won't work on a headless server. I used SystemRescueCD installed to a USB flash drive to install to a headless server. I just booted up, enabled OpenSSHD, and SSHed in.
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| Patrick Ewing wrote: | | if it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, it’s a duck, right? So if this duck is not giving you the noise that you want, you’ve got to just punch that duck until it returns what you expect. |
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bladewing678
n00b
Joined: 29 Sep 2008
Posts: 2
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| Posted: Tue Sep 30, 2008 7:57 pm Post subject: |
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| onefriedrice wrote: | | bladewing678 wrote: | | So, I think the new prioritys are set well, BUT I'd like to be able to use Firefox 3 without switching my whole system to unstable |
You do know that you can emerge unstable packages on a per-package basis, right? Or are you making a joke that there are so many packages (xulrunner, etc) that you have to switch to unstable, that it's virtually as if your whole system is switched to unstable? I can't tell which because you seem to know what you're talking about, but you also only have one post. Meh, whatever. |
It was a joke, my package.keywords is quite long and even longer on my amd64 machine. |
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onefriedrice
n00b
Joined: 26 Aug 2007
Posts: 57
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| Posted: Wed Oct 01, 2008 4:28 am Post subject: |
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| bladewing678 wrote: | | It was a joke, ... |
Yeah, sometimes those fly right over my head. At least I caught onto the possibility, though. |
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zaccret
n00b
Joined: 07 Dec 2007
Posts: 18
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| Posted: Wed Oct 01, 2008 5:16 pm Post subject: |
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| baaann wrote: | | How would you present the typical Gentoo experience? |
Really good question ! I wonder if it could be possible to let the user easily builds its own LiveCD from a minimal CD (or from a yearly released LiveCD). A user would have to make some of these choices :
- select its architecture (x86, amd64)
- choose CFLAGS or a pre-defined set of CFLAGS (or the CFLAGS could be automated, containing only -march=arch or -march=native)
- choose USE flags or a pre-defined set of USE flags (default-linux, desktop...)
- choose a desktop environment
- choose a pre-defined set of packages.
The kernel would be generated with genkernel.
Then the "LiveCD creator" would generate the LiveCD and burn it.
Maybe this "LiveCD creator" could be based on the installer. |
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ellingsw
n00b
Joined: 31 May 2004
Posts: 40
Location: Kansas, USA
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| Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 4:12 am Post subject: What About the ebuilds in Portage? |
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What about the ebuilds in portage?
I noticed the portage tree is starting to suffer from bit rot. I'm finding more and more packages are outdated and ebuilds for newer versions are not being created. Don't ask me to name them because I'm having problems remembering specifics.
Is Gentoo reaching out to upstream developers and encouraging them to write ebuilds? Better yet, is Gentoo reaching out to upstream developers and encouraging them to use Gentoo for their development systems? I think Gentoo should consider both as this would greatly boost the amount of developers and keep the portage tree updated.
Also, I think Gentoo should reach out to companies using Linux and encourage them to use Gentoo for their development systems and maybe even production. This would also boost the amount of developers working on Gentoo as well and possibly testing of packages with a shortened unstable period. |
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vitae
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 134
Location: Germany
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| Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 6:53 am Post subject: |
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| zaccret wrote: | | baaann wrote: | | How would you present the typical Gentoo experience? |
Really good question ! I wonder if it could be possible to let the user easily builds its own LiveCD from a minimal CD (or from a yearly released LiveCD). A user would have to make some of these choices :
- select its architecture (x86, amd64)
- choose CFLAGS or a pre-defined set of CFLAGS (or the CFLAGS could be automated, containing only -march=arch or -march=native)
- choose USE flags or a pre-defined set of USE flags (default-linux, desktop...)
- choose a desktop environment
- choose a pre-defined set of packages.
The kernel would be generated with genkernel.
Then the "LiveCD creator" would generate the LiveCD and burn it.
Maybe this "LiveCD creator" could be based on the installer. |
Your LiveCD creator == emerge catalyst
adapt one of the *.spec files to your need (useflags, stage, arch) and run catalyst -f your.spec
I tried it this weekend. It is not so difficult |
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