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friesia
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Joined: 23 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2016 9:14 pm    Post subject: Gentoo future and modern packaging Reply with quote

Recently GCC depelopers improved "function multi-versioning" in GCC which allows software to make use of all available CPU instructions without need for compiling with "-march=native -mtune=native".
https://lwn.net/Articles/691666/

Source-based distros will probably lose the advantage of execution speed in future.

There are also projects like Flatpak which allow distribution-independent packaging (not for all installed software, of course, but still). Maybe they will gain popularity. I like the idea perhaps, but it won't fit into Gentoo philosophy.

Gentoo offers flexibility with USE flags, but in other distros it's also possible to build a set of packages from source if the default build doesn't suit you...

I've been a Gentoo user for many years but I'm trying re-consider benefits it currently offers and whether I need them.

I like the simplistic approach you can have in Gentoo (not installing unnecessary deps) and in Arch (overall KISS philosophy). Will probably stay with them for a while.

What do you think will change about building and packaging in upcoming years in Linux ecosystem?
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eccerr0r
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2016 11:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Most build their systems suboptimally anyway, like I do, mainly for compatibility. Probably would be better for me.

However this will give binary bloat? This would require complete routines to be kept around, fine grain instruction selection doesn't work as capabilities branches themselves would waste cpu cycles.

Hopefully there's a way to prune out irrelevant code to reduce object file sizes. The resultant binary will be smaller and thus at least save disk space. Cache resident size is a fallacy as unused code will not be cached anyway. Then again people tend not to care about binary disk space consumption, assuming it's the "cost of doing business" and get that bigger hard drive. Sigh.

The "KISS" philosophy bugs me as perhaps it's simpler for the end user, but it is clearly NOT simpler for the developer to keep so many test cases around to support the end user. So who should it be simpler for? Why should the developer keep on offering OSS if it costs them effort to support options that they do not care for?
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Ant P.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2016 3:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like having a distro that makes its own decisions and lets me make my own. This has nothing to do with execution speed; if I wanted that I'd just upgrade my CPU more than twice a decade and use Windows.

Quote:
Why should the developer keep on offering OSS if it costs them effort to support options that they do not care for?

That's a valid question, and it's their choice to. Nobody can be forced to write FOSS software, just as much as nobody can be forced to use it.
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Naib
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2016 10:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aamazon wrote:
Gentoo offers flexibility with USE flags, but in other distros it's also possible to build a set of packages from source if the default build doesn't suit you...


It really comes down to how much do you want to tweak & how much you want to fight with the base repository dependency tree...
Sure you can build package X,Y,Z on any distro BUT the more you play the more the system fights. Gentoo is a nice balance between a sane structure and one the user can override
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krinn
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2016 11:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just care how gcc authors will implement this, making a code that can execute specific instruction when running is nothing really new, what is new is that it's gcc that will build that specific code part.

I just hope they will think about code size and that this option could be turn off, and that any "running section" will be built as "one running section of that cpu" when the option is off.
If not, i would see it as a regression, you have no real gain, as you can already do yourself running section for specific feature (mmx must be the most common seen in program), but bloating code of a running program for code segment that will never be trigger would be really a regression, specially on embed devices.

It's also arguable about the value added, while it will ease dev works, some feature will gave hard time to choose which one would do the job better.
Look at software raid, it execute specific running section to benchmark what feature will gave the better result, and on two cpu with the same features, depending on cpu and family, results may differ.
Code:
[ 2662.960617] raid6: sse2x1   gen()  3484 MB/s
[ 2662.977603] raid6: sse2x1   xor()  3673 MB/s
[ 2662.994612] raid6: sse2x2   gen()  5652 MB/s
[ 2663.011601] raid6: sse2x2   xor()  5978 MB/s
[ 2663.028613] raid6: sse2x4   gen()  7156 MB/s
[ 2663.045601] raid6: sse2x4   xor()  3837 MB/s
[ 2663.045603] raid6: using algorithm sse2x4 gen() 7156 MB/s
[ 2663.045604] raid6: .... xor() 3837 MB/s, rmw enabled
[ 2663.045606] raid6: using intx1 recovery algorithm
[ 2663.051916] async_tx: api initialized (async)
[ 2663.058743] xor: measuring software checksum speed
[ 2663.068598]    prefetch64-sse: 13312.000 MB/sec
[ 2663.078597]    generic_sse: 12720.000 MB/sec
[ 2663.078599] xor: using function: prefetch64-sse (13312.000 MB/sec)


For your information flatpak didn't invent the wheel, it's a really old concept having multi-binary-target in one package. So when i see "Modern Packaging", i'm seeing again the classic systemd bullshit argument at work, sorry.
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