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yagami
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 15, 2015 11:02 am    Post subject: Why i left gentoo... Reply with quote

Being a Gentoo use since 2002, on all my systems for more than 10 years, I noticed that now i only have Gentoo on one system, and its a system i dont use much.

I could say i left gentoo because of the compile times, the non installer, the "introduce you missing or old package here" or etc...
but none of that is true. NONE.

I left Gentoo for only one reason... Everytime i come here, and i come here often, because i have the "gentoo urge addiction", i just see bickering, fights, insults, arguments, ellitism, incoherent arguments and reasonings, users vs developers, etc.

Could Gentoo be Fun too ? ( cheesy pun ) ? It feels like Gentoo started as the rebels , but are now the Empire ( parlament ) : fights, arguments, multiple parties arguing for themselfs, trying to be "better and more geek than the others".

Damn ... stop it ! Please !
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mv
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 15, 2015 12:06 pm    Post subject: Re: Why i left gentoo... Reply with quote

yagami wrote:
It feels like Gentoo started as the rebels , but are now the Empire ( parlament ) : fights, arguments, multiple parties arguing for themselfs, trying to be "better and more geek than the others"

For me, it feels quite the opposite: Gentoo still is the only distribution which cares about choice.
Of course, there are (and always will be) some people who want to push their only true way to everybody.
However, in gentoo, essentially this manifests only in some default choices which users can override more or less easily (problems where upstream suppresses the choice and where giving choice back would require much manpower left apart - you cannot blame gentoo for this).
To be honest, as long as there is the possibility of choice, I do not care about the outcome of these discussions.
It is natural that in such political discussions there are different opinions about the "correct" defaults and also people who want to take away choice. IMHO, it is a good sign that such opinions can be voiced, and it is an even better sign that nevertheless gentoo remains about choice.
So, summarizing, I cannot follow your argument: If you do not like these discussions, just ignore them! I mean, really: It is the result which counts.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 15, 2015 1:06 pm    Post subject: Re: Why i left gentoo... Reply with quote

yagami wrote:
i just see bickering, fights, insults, arguments, ellitism, incoherent arguments and reasonings, users vs developers, etc.


I see users trying to help each other, with some discussions where there are differences of opinion.
Choice is good and Gentoo still provides it. Where there is choice there will almost certainly be differences of opinion, this only really becomes a problem if it completely stalls progress or people become intolerant to the views of others.
Best of luck with your choice of distro 8)
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 15, 2015 1:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Both sides care about the subject ; if one side doesn't care, the side will just not disagree with the other (except to troll).

When you just see two people fighting, i see two passionate users debating.
Friction doesn't comes from their different point of view, but because they share the same interest.
But you need to be yourself interest in the subject to see that, as if you lack interest on it, you will not understand it.

Quote:
now i only have Gentoo on one system, and its a system i dont use much.

Proving your lack of interest, now any Gentoo debate could only be boring for you.

So it's not forum debate that let you leave Gentoo, it's your lack of interest, and forum debate is not the cause, but a symptom.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 15, 2015 1:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I left Gentoo for only one reason... Everytime i come here, and i come here often, because i have the "gentoo urge addiction", i just see bickering, fights, insults, arguments, ellitism, incoherent arguments and reasonings, users vs developers, etc.

If "logic" will win "fights" are ok.

There will be always newbies with lack of knowledge and experience and there will be veterans with sometimes deadlocked pathways.
Each party gives opposite party feedback, often without common denominator, so good moderators are needed.

starting OT:
self compiling from source is momentously even after a decade of IT "business", so Gentoo is in a good shape and ahead of the IT time.
I presage we will see more structures of self-compile-than-run in the IT universe.
Beginning with ARM (usual drop old structures in current generations) to save space and energy,
AMD/INTEL/x86 need to following, when ARM stepping closer in term of performance per watt.
All these will result in chip diversity, which can not be effective handled by pre-compiled binaries.
Getting rid of unused/obsolete ABI/API is another topic.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 15, 2015 1:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with mv and jonathan both, so won't reiterate what they've already said.

To me though, Gentoo is still a lot of fun, principally because I ignore the developer list nowadays, much like I've always ignored OTW.

To my mind both are where the worst aspects of that "group" are on display.

Also, I have a long killfile, which makes IRC much more pleasant. ;p

If you want to unwind with fellow users, #gentoo-chat is brilliant, imo, if a little wacky at times, and often rambling.

Mainly because it's well-moderated; it's like a live version of the forums, though obviously you get a lot more random nonsense. ;)

As for arguments, as long as there are people, there will be arguments. Hell, most of us can't even agree with ourselves. :-)

Geeks are even worse, because they get so focussed on one thing, and are obsessively pedantic about detail. It's par for the course, and by no means unique to Gentoo. If people around you aren't carrying on like that at least 70% of the time, when it comes to software or hardware, then chances are they're not geeks.

Still, good luck on your journey.

Hope you don't mind me saying, I reckon you'll be back sooner or later; we'll be glad to see you. :-)

Regards,
steveL.
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yagami
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 15, 2015 3:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

krinn wrote:
Both sides care about the subject ; if one side doesn't care, the side will just not disagree with the other (except to troll).

When you just see two people fighting, i see two passionate users debating.
Friction doesn't comes from their different point of view, but because they share the same interest.
But you need to be yourself interest in the subject to see that, as if you lack interest on it, you will not understand it.

Quote:
now i only have Gentoo on one system, and its a system i dont use much.

Proving your lack of interest, now any Gentoo debate could only be boring for you.

So it's not forum debate that let you leave Gentoo, it's your lack of interest, and forum debate is not the cause, but a symptom.


That is an interesting point, but exactly the opposite.

I do care, alot !

To give you an example, even when i am not using Gentoo, i come here to search for ideas or opinioes. I do like the discussions about the issues.
Now, your point is exactly the issue i am talking about: The attitude "everything is good here" and "its your problem , you dont care".

No, I DO CARE ! ( or i would not created the topic ), I am very interested.

Maybe its because i tend to read "hot topics", but the problem is really the trolling and the bad mouth. There are just things i honestly cannot agree, not in terms of opinioes ( not yes or no ) but in terms of conduit or mentality.

I made this topic, and the ending "please", to remind to everyone that either pro or against, user or dev, its still our love for "freedom" ( FREEDOM, not unrolling loops or extreme choice for everthing ).

But like in good true gentoo forums mentality, "our food is good, the clients are wrong" ( i just saw kitchen nightmares! ).

either way ... vote me as "redhat troll" or whatever , the posts are there and the issue about the communities are there. ( wink wink tinderbox ).

Trully, would love for people to get along and be more "empathetic" ( dunno if its correct word ).

If anywant want explicit examples, pvt me.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 15, 2015 3:14 pm    Post subject: Re: Why i left gentoo... Reply with quote

yagami wrote:
I left Gentoo for only one reason... Everytime i come here, and i come here often, because i have the "gentoo urge addiction", i just see bickering, fights, insults, arguments, ellitism, incoherent arguments and reasonings, users vs developers, etc.

I see a fair amount of similar behaviour in other Web forums and in comments on blog posts, so I think it's unfair to single out the Gentoo forums. In any case, the larger the number of reasonable contributors who post, the more reasonable the discussion, which is another reason to stick around and post. Gentoo is still very interesting and challenging.
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genstorm
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 15, 2015 3:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree the atmosphere around certain topics is poisened. However, leaving is not an option, instead I am visiting the forums less often and spending that time on contributions. Much better.
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yagami
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 15, 2015 3:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

steveL wrote:
I agree with mv and jonathan both, so won't reiterate what they've already said.

To me though, Gentoo is still a lot of fun, principally because I ignore the developer list nowadays, much like I've always ignored OTW.

To my mind both are where the worst aspects of that "group" are on display.

Also, I have a long killfile, which makes IRC much more pleasant. ;p

If you want to unwind with fellow users, #gentoo-chat is brilliant, imo, if a little wacky at times, and often rambling.

Mainly because it's well-moderated; it's like a live version of the forums, though obviously you get a lot more random nonsense. ;)

As for arguments, as long as there are people, there will be arguments. Hell, most of us can't even agree with ourselves. :-)

Geeks are even worse, because they get so focussed on one thing, and are obsessively pedantic about detail. It's par for the course, and by no means unique to Gentoo. If people around you aren't carrying on like that at least 70% of the time, when it comes to software or hardware, then chances are they're not geeks.

Still, good luck on your journey.

Hope you don't mind me saying, I reckon you'll be back sooner or later; we'll be glad to see you. :-)

Regards,
steveL.


SteveL, in no way i talked about choice. Choice is good, or for me, what is amazing for gentoo is that even if it doesnt supply choice, it supplies the framework and advance infrastruture to allow choice.

SteveL, although i dont think we ever talked, i almost feel like we are old part of family. I almost every day read posts from you.

and .. although i understand that it may come the wrong way, there are posts in discussions you have, that just make sad.

Its frustrating that most of the time i agree with you or with what user say, but the way of conduit is just horrible.

.... No thank you for the amazing devs, the "PRO CHOICE" but almost kill any user who ask for systemd ( choice, as long as its your choice ? ), freaking attacks to someone who just recomended a new look for wikis? ( WTF ?? ), almost take gentoo devs like they are slaves to users.

Its amazing that i am already labeled as a "lack interest" or "gentoo still has more choice". Read my intro, I didnt mentioned any of that, nor that i found anything better.
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yagami
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 15, 2015 3:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

genstorm wrote:
I agree the atmosphere around certain topics is poisened. However, leaving is not an option, instead I am visiting the forums less often and spending that time on contributions. Much better.


Yeah ... i can understand. At one point i went to Funtoo and had a brilliant time with devs there. Maybe that is the solution...
I cant say that i Gentoo is out of my life, when i read the forums almost every day.
Still, in any issue of linux life, i try to get input and opinions from here, because there are very interesting here.


Last edited by yagami on Sun Feb 15, 2015 3:27 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 15, 2015 3:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You can have a brilliant time with the Gentoo devs as well :D
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 15, 2015 3:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

genstorm wrote:
You can have a brilliant time with the Gentoo devs as well :D


Dunno, in Funtoo i easilly got with angry vincent and drobbins, and i remeber at time they were very nice to accept my patchs for fakeraid systems in the initrd ( dmraid gpt support that redhat decided to drop ( or not create ) ).

Never had that with Gentoo, dunno why.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 15, 2015 3:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have also used Gentoo since 2002. I have always written my own ebuilds when I disagree with developer decisions, and since Paludis came onto the scene I've had a viable choice of package managers.

Best not to take software personally :) This is the way it was back in halcyon days of open source: everything was hackable; if you don't like someone else's code, roll your own.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 15, 2015 3:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

yagami wrote:
the "PRO CHOICE" but almost kill any user who ask for systemd ( choice, as long as its your choice ? ), freaking attacks to someone who just recomended a new look for wikis? ( WTF ?? ), almost take gentoo devs like they are slaves to users.

Its amazing that i am already labeled as a "lack interest" or "gentoo still has more choice". Read my intro, I didnt mentioned any of that, nor that i found anything better.
if you want to use systemd thats fine, just dont remove other peoples choice not to use it ... change the wiki just dont make it much more difficult for people who want to use links to access it ... choice is good and gentoo still provides it != all other distros provide less choice.

... like I said in the previous post I see users trying to help each other, with some discussions where there are differences of opinion
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 15, 2015 4:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

yagami wrote:
SteveL, in no way i talked about choice. Choice is good, or for me, what is amazing for gentoo is that even if it doesnt supply choice, it supplies the framework and advance infrastruture to allow choice.

Er, nor did I. I only spoke of how Gentoo can be fun, if you just treat it as a community. As in real-life you meet people you don't get on with, so avoid them where you can, and remain civil where you cannot.

That's what I love about /ignore which makes IRC much nicer than real-life. ;-)
Quote:
SteveL, although i dont think we ever talked, i almost feel like we are old part of family. I almost every day read posts from you.

Indeed; that's why I felt to post on your leaving thread, and say I look forward to your return.
Quote:
and .. although i understand that it may come the wrong way, there are posts in discussions you have, that just make sad.

That's okay; if everyone were the same we'd get bored of each other. I'm not you: I don't expect nor seek your approval for how I conduct myself.
Quote:
Its frustrating that most of the time i agree with you or with what user say, but the way of conduit is just horrible.

.... No thank you for the amazing devs,

I've thanked lots of developers on many occasions, and indeed had 3 or 4 years when I first joined, where I was constantly defending Gentoo developers, and indeed the distro, in arguments with poisonous people who kept trying to undermine it, with sniping references to how crap everything is, how it will die, must surely die, though they'd rather like to keep all the ebuilds and the systems that portage built.

After a while, you get to know people, such that you don't need to thank them in public, because you help them in private, and also because it can come across as a bit nauseating. (I've even been mocked on the dev ML for being too grateful for the software.) So I don't recognise that accusation.

I'll admit you may not have seen public declarations of gratitude from me towards the developers as a collective. That's because my experiences with them as a collective have been frankly dismal. You will have, however, seen many expressions of gratitude for the distro as a whole, and the community, and how good the software is (or you haven't been reading my posts.) Principally I put the fact that Gentoo is so good down to the forums moderators, since they herd the kittens, as well as the collaborative spirit that is natural to every human being.
Quote:
the "PRO CHOICE" but almost kill any user who ask for systemd ( choice, as long as its your choice ? ),

Rubbish. I stay out of threads where someone is asking for help with systemd.

I think you are referring to discussions about systemd with other users; that is a totally different matter. And I have never argued with someone else's choice: all I've ever said is "that's fine, so long as I don't have to use it;" which is a cue for every zealot who cba to start arguing with my reasons, instead of accepting that as my choice.
Quote:
freaking attacks to someone who just recomended a new look for wikis? ( WTF ?? ),

Those weren't attacks. The new wiki js is absolutely dire and means I have to use the wiki with noscript.

You really need to get a thicker-skin. Criticism of software is not the same as criticism of a person.
Quote:
almost take gentoo devs like they are slaves to users.

You're confusing "job description" with "person" as was pointed out back then to whoever was slinging that accusation my way (I think he reported me for it, so you may not have seen the response.)
Quote:
Its amazing that i am already labeled as a "lack interest" or "gentoo still has more choice". Read my intro, I didnt mentioned any of that, nor that i found anything better.

IDK what you're talking about now; as I said I never mentioned choice once in my farewell post.

Anyhow, I wish you luck.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 15, 2015 4:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ROFLMAO, look at the bickering the OP was talking about.... :mrgreen:
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 15, 2015 4:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

steveL wrote:
yagami wrote:
SteveL, in no way i talked about choice. Choice is good, or for me, what is amazing for gentoo is that even if it doesnt supply choice, it supplies the framework and advance infrastruture to allow choice.

Er, nor did I. I only spoke of how Gentoo can be fun, if you just treat it as a community. As in real-life you meet people you don't get on with, so avoid them where you can, and remain civil where you cannot.

That's what I love about /ignore which makes IRC much nicer than real-life. ;-)
Quote:
SteveL, although i dont think we ever talked, i almost feel like we are old part of family. I almost every day read posts from you.

Indeed; that's why I felt to post on your leaving thread, and say I look forward to your return.
Quote:
and .. although i understand that it may come the wrong way, there are posts in discussions you have, that just make sad.

That's okay; if everyone were the same we'd get bored of each other. I'm not you: I don't expect nor seek your approval for how I conduct myself.
Quote:
Its frustrating that most of the time i agree with you or with what user say, but the way of conduit is just horrible.

.... No thank you for the amazing devs,

I've thanked lots of developers on many occasions, and indeed had 3 or 4 years when I first joined, where I was constantly defending Gentoo developers, and indeed the distro, in arguments with poisonous people who kept trying to undermine it, with sniping references to how crap everything is, how it will die, must surely die, though they'd rather like to keep all the ebuilds and the systems that portage built.

After a while, you get to know people, such that you don't need to thank them in public, because you help them in private, and also because it can come across as a bit nauseating. (I've even been mocked on the dev ML for being too grateful for the software.) So I don't recognise that accusation.

I'll admit you may not have seen public declarations of gratitude from me towards the developers as a collective. That's because my experiences with them as a collective have been frankly dismal. You will have, however, seen many expressions of gratitude for the distro as a whole, and the community, and how good the software is (or you haven't been reading my posts.) Principally I put the fact that Gentoo is so good down to the forums moderators, since they herd the kittens, as well as the collaborative spirit that is natural to every human being.
Quote:
the "PRO CHOICE" but almost kill any user who ask for systemd ( choice, as long as its your choice ? ),

Rubbish. I stay out of threads where someone is asking for help with systemd.

I think you are referring to discussions about systemd with other users; that is a totally different matter. And I have never argued with someone else's choice: all I've ever said is "that's fine, so long as I don't have to use it;" which is a cue for every zealot who cba to start arguing with my reasons, instead of accepting that as my choice.
Quote:
freaking attacks to someone who just recomended a new look for wikis? ( WTF ?? ),

Those weren't attacks. The new wiki js is absolutely dire and means I have to use the wiki with noscript.

You really need to get a thicker-skin. Criticism of software is not the same as criticism of a person.
Quote:
almost take gentoo devs like they are slaves to users.

You're confusing "job description" with "person" as was pointed out back then to whoever was slinging that accusation my way (I think he reported me for it, so you may not have seen the response.)
Quote:
Its amazing that i am already labeled as a "lack interest" or "gentoo still has more choice". Read my intro, I didnt mentioned any of that, nor that i found anything better.

IDK what you're talking about now; as I said I never mentioned choice once in my farewell post.

Anyhow, I wish you luck.


hum... the choice thing, is well, mv and jonathan183 said it, and you said :
Quote:
I agree with mv and jonathan both, so won't reiterate what they've already said.


about the systemd thing ( and lets stop at that ), use it if you want to but dont force it also.

SteveL...thanks for the reply!
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 15, 2015 8:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, bye. Have fun wherever you end up.

And remember, lest you start having second thoughts, with Gentoo you had to:

- Pick from a thousand options to get the system you want. Fedora has none.
- Install a thousand updates a month to stay current. Debian has none.
- Read a thousand conflicting ideas to make up your own mind on something. Arch has none.
- Put up with a thousand users and devs arguing over the tiniest details. Funtoo has none.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 15, 2015 9:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ant P. wrote:
Well, bye. Have fun wherever you end up.

And remember, lest you start having second thoughts, with Gentoo you had to:

- Pick from a thousand options to get the system you want. Fedora has none.
- Install a thousand updates a month to stay current. Debian has none.
- Read a thousand conflicting ideas to make up your own mind on something. Arch has none.
- Put up with a thousand users and devs arguing over the tiniest details. Funtoo has none.


:D I stay.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 16, 2015 12:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why did I leave Gentoo? Well, you see, it's because...um...oh, heck. Just one more emerge. Then I'll quit. ;)

- John
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 16, 2015 2:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm kind of new here again but one thing I think is that sometimes people bicker about things but really most of the time we pretty much have common goals. I think pretty much everyone here is attracted to Gentoo for the choice and control they get. That makes it a little easier to respect, on some level, the other person who wants something a little different than you. Though that respect is there we don't always show it. :)
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 16, 2015 8:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

LOL. You must not get around much. This forum is incredibly kind, civil and downright helpful. The forums are a large part of your experience with any distribution, and this place makes Gentoo one of the best.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 16, 2015 8:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

John R. Graham wrote:
Why did I leave Gentoo? Well, you see, it's because...um...oh, heck. Just one more emerge. Then I'll quit. ;)

Indeed, there were times when I was also close to leaving gentoo for being very unhappy with some decisions.
But looking at the alternatives, I saw that everything else is much worse: Every distribution has made decisions, I am even more unhappy about, and undoing them is impossible (or at least much more work than in gentoo).
So, in a sense, gentoo gave me no choice... ;)
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 16, 2015 9:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have left Gentoo many times, only to comeback to it later. I also joined up in 2002.
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