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bytenirvana
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 07, 2008 7:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

shaumux wrote:
bytenirvana wrote:
From what I read I believe the KDE4.1 ebuilds in the overlay doesn't support useflags. However I'm not into ebuilds the way I could, I don't even know where to start.

What use flags are you talking about i found all the use flags i would need it even has use flags in kde-meta package.


I read in a kde4 thread in this forum somewhere that there is alot of complexity to handle for the devs with supporting the use flags and sorting out dependecies. The real reason why the working overlay ebuilds can't be "Imported" into portage is still unclear for me.

shaumux wrote:

bytenirvana wrote:
My guess would be that is just breaks/won't compile. This would be a behaviour I exspect from a masked package. But like everyone else I would like to know the real reason too.
Well I have been running kde 4.1 from the overlay for more than a week, no breaking and it certailnly compiled.

I was guessing what could be the reasons for the developers why it is not even in unstable tree.

@KDE4.1 ETA
Why not make a date up? Just say "KDE4.1 is ready October 1st". The Asking would stop. The userbase would think they are cared for. And when it is ready in 1 or 2 or 3 weeks the devs could say "We were extra hard-working for you dear gentoo users" and the devs would be showered with praise because they did it even sooner then announced.
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node_one
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 07, 2008 9:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bytenirvana wrote:
The real reason why the working overlay ebuilds can't be "Imported" into portage is still unclear for me.

There might be eclass issues, but I have not checked so I do not know. Using the overlay allows them to use different eclasses from what is in the main tree. Someone correct me if I am wrong.
bytenirvana wrote:
@KDE4.1 ETA
Why not make a date up? Just say "KDE4.1 is ready October 1st". The Asking would stop. The userbase would think they are cared for. And when it is ready in 1 or 2 or 3 weeks the devs could say "We were extra hard-working for you dear gentoo users" and the devs would be showered with praise because they did it even sooner then announced.

+1, but what would happen if, for whatever reason, they broke one of those "commitments." Looking at this thread, imagine the backlash. I am content with "fake" dates and waiting, but not everyone is. It is easier to make no promises than to break them, at least from a PR standpoint I guess.
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asturm
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 07, 2008 9:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Right now I can't get a working main system with kdesvn-portage even though it has worked perfectly before. It seems to me that the dependencies haven't really been worked out in those ebuilds (on my laptop I had to guess which packages I had do recompile in order to get a working kde-4.1 desktop), which is why they can't just be imported into portage. People would complain about the lack of quality.
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Punraz
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 07, 2008 9:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello,

so Gentoo's KDE team is understaffed. That is bad considering the big changes taking place in going from KDE 3.5 to 4.1. But I can't remember any 'Gentoo's KDE team wants you!' article on the front page of gentoo.org either.

What I don't get is that >>you're not a developer so shut up attitude<< that prominently displays in threads like these. Users of gentoo should in my opinion be able to communicate, question and ,yes, even criticize in a constructive way. There's even a project called Gentoo User Relations that promotes to 'offer a point of contact between the development and user communities'.

Now again, what is wrong about kindly asking for a release date of KDE 4.1.0? And no, I didn't stomp my feet to request it immediatly. I could think of scenarios where even a mere user would like to be able to plan a migration to a new KDE release.

Overlays came up in this discussion which - in my humble opinion - pose a real threat to gentoo. Over time the distribution get's more and more clustered, decentralized, overlays draw manpower from the official tree and in the end the official tree will be so outdated that nobody uses it anymore. Security issues in using some obscure overlay are on another page.

Bye
Punraz
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asturm
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 07, 2008 11:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually, overlays are good practise before getting responsible for official packages.
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AllenJB
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 07, 2008 12:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Punraz wrote:
Hello,

so Gentoo's KDE team is understaffed. That is bad considering the big changes taking place in going from KDE 3.5 to 4.1. But I can't remember any 'Gentoo's KDE team wants you!' article on the front page of gentoo.org either.

What I don't get is that >>you're not a developer so shut up attitude<< that prominently displays in threads like these. Users of gentoo should in my opinion be able to communicate, question and ,yes, even criticize in a constructive way. There's even a project called Gentoo User Relations that promotes to 'offer a point of contact between the development and user communities'.

Now again, what is wrong about kindly asking for a release date of KDE 4.1.0? And no, I didn't stomp my feet to request it immediatly. I could think of scenarios where even a mere user would like to be able to plan a migration to a new KDE release.

Overlays came up in this discussion which - in my humble opinion - pose a real threat to gentoo. Over time the distribution get's more and more clustered, decentralized, overlays draw manpower from the official tree and in the end the official tree will be so outdated that nobody uses it anymore. Security issues in using some obscure overlay are on another page.

Bye
Punraz


Can you quote any posts which show this "you're not a developer so be quiet" attitude please? I don't think I've seen it to the degree that you're indicating. You do have to take into account that the volunteers who make up the Gentoo developer base may tire of the same questions being asked (in varying degrees of "request" to "demand") over and over.

As for overlays, I believe they are a strength, not a weakness. Through the use of overlays users have been working on the KDE 4.1 packages, ironing out the bugs, and from what I hear they may very well be used as a starting point for the official packages.

Users seem to be constantly complaining that there's no way to get involved in Gentoo development. I don't believe this is true at all, but I suspect the real problem is that many of them just want others to do it for them and aren't willing to put in any time or effort to learn how to do things for themselves. They just create the excuse that there's no ways to get involved so they don't have to admit the truth.

I can fully understand why the developers, when they do take the time out to come and browse the forums, end up making posts like Carlo's above.

With regards to the "when it's done" attitude:

1) Gentoo's developers are unpaid volunteers. While the teams will cooperate towards common goals, there's no forced labour here. If there were, I think we'd have even more problems with lack of manpower.

2) Any dates announced by the developers are always taken as gospel, regardless of any disclaimers displayed. See the releng pages and what happens around every release milestone. I'd be willing to bet it's the same groups of people who whine about lack of release dates who sit on the forums and post more whining as soon as a provisional, guestimated milestone date is missed by half a second. And you're surprised?

3) When you step up and help the developers, they might have enough reliable manpower that they can start releasing dates. Until then, your whining will do nothing.

Punraz: If you look carefully, they "childish" comment wasn't aimed at you but at another poster.

Related post: Discussion on user contributions to Gentoo: issues/proposals
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Nephilim666
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 07, 2008 12:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think that there is anything wrong with asking the devs for a time frame when things will be ready. But I just don't get all this ranting that comes with such questions. And this really doesn't have anything to do with >>you're not a developer so shut up attitude<<. It is just the way some people demand things without thinking first how they could help out in any way.

It has been said a thousand times before: Gentoo is a community driven distro, so everyone is doing all this in their spare time. And while I have time to go out and see my friends, some "poor dev" :twisted: sits in his room and does the work for me. I can try to influence things by helping out or by motivating the according devs in a positive way. How about getting them something from their wish list?

If you really think that the way things get handled is wrong, you might want to consider switching to Ubuntu , Red Hat or Novell/Suse. They have money to buy them manpower, so they can make schedules when things will be done.

@carlo: There are a lot of us just waiting for KDE-4.1 to hit the tree without all that whining.

Just my 2 cents.
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Nerdanel
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 07, 2008 1:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AllenJB wrote:
As for overlays, I believe they are a strength, not a weakness. Through the use of overlays users have been working on the KDE 4.1 packages, ironing out the bugs, and from what I hear they may very well be used as a starting point for the official packages.


No, it looks like they won't be.

https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=233301

Bernd Steinhauser wrote:
Why would it make anything better, if the KDE team would just copy the
kdesvn-overlay ebuilds and hard mask them?
If you feel fine using those and trust the maintainers enough, then you could
as well use them in the overlay. So that wouldn't improve the situation at all.
Plus... See, it's not that easy to take those ebuilds.
They are from an untrusted (saying nothing against the maintainers, but they
are not gentoo developers, nor do the KDE people know about their ebuild
creating skills) source, which means, that every ebuild *has to be checked*.
Now if you would have ever done a KDE bump and know enough about the
eclass/ebuild structure of KDE4, then you would know, that that basically is
the same amount of work as creating them from scratch. (A little bit less, but
it won't really speed up anything.)
And no, these checks can not be dropped.


and later in the same post...

Bernd Steinhauser wrote:
See above. These ebuilds have to be expected to contain major mistakes (quality
assurance means to expect the worst).
I didn't really have a look at the ebuilds, so no, I can't tell you if it is
only one or maybe 200 mistakes. But one is definitely there:
kalzium/kalzium-4.1.0.ebuild: if use solver && ! built_with_use
dev-lang/ocaml ocamlopt && ! built_with_use dev-ml/facile ocamlopt ; then

There might be more, I don't know, since I didn't check them, so the rest might
be ok.


But there are alternate views on ebuild quality...

Shvetsov Alexey wrote:
ok look at kalzium ebuilds in official portage tree and you'll see the same
constriction (both for 3.5.x and 4.0.x)
ebuilds in kdesvn-portage overlay has almoust the same quality as in portage
ones =)
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AllenJB
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 07, 2008 1:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nerdanel wrote:
AllenJB wrote:
As for overlays, I believe they are a strength, not a weakness. Through the use of overlays users have been working on the KDE 4.1 packages, ironing out the bugs, and from what I hear they may very well be used as a starting point for the official packages.


No, it looks like they won't be.

https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=233301

<snip various quotes>


According to some bits of research I wouldn't take those posts to mean that the kdesvn-portage overlay packages won't be used. Bernd doesn't appear to be a developer (Bugzilla email isn't @gentoo.org and I can't find him on a quick grep of the dev list). The developer who is commenting on that bug basically gave no comment as to whether they will use the kdesvn-portage packages as a base.

With regards to QA on the kdesvn-portage overlay, there is, to my knowledge, atleast 1 KDE team developer who works on the kdesvn-portage overlay, and I know for a fact that some of the overlay devs have been doing QA on it (both manually and using the same tools the Gentoo devs use on the main tree).

Personally I would be surprised if the KDE team did not atleast look at the kdesvn-portage overlay. Many of the 4.1 specific issues that weren't in 4.0 will have already been fixed there. Even if some QA work is needed, I suspect it'll be faster than developing 100-odd (random guess) packages from scratch.
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smurfer
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 07, 2008 2:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello,

there's is one thing I like to mention, which is not meant for any dev/maintainer or someone else as a demand refering to this thread topic to get their things done. But what I really can't (under)stand is the argument, emerging every now and then: "They do it for free, they are volunteers, they can do what and when they want."

If I decide to do something -- even if it is for free -- I've got a certain responsibility. I'm a trainer in a sports club and I do it for free, but I can't just skip training because I'm not in the mood, people depend and trust on me. At least, if I absolutely can't do it, I have to inform the people and keep up communication. So, just as an example, if I volunteer to maintain something, it implies that I maintain, even if I'm not paid for it.

Again, I don't know the exact situation in KDE dev group and thus don't want to demand anything. I just feel like one should think about this "volunteer" argument once again. It also applies to forums, websites that provide something for somebody and lot of other things. I really appreciate voluntary work, but or especially because there's always some responsibility coming with it.

Bye, smurfer
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Nephilim666
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 07, 2008 3:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

smurfer wrote:
Hello,

there's is one thing I like to mention, which is not meant for any dev/maintainer or someone else as a demand refering to this thread topic to get their things done. But what I really can't (under)stand is the argument, emerging every now and then: "They do it for free, they are volunteers, they can do what and when they want."

If I decide to do something -- even if it is for free -- I've got a certain responsibility. I'm a trainer in a sports club and I do it for free, but I can't just skip training because I'm not in the mood, people depend and trust on me. At least, if I absolutely can't do it, I have to inform the people and keep up communication. So, just as an example, if I volunteer to maintain something, it implies that I maintain, even if I'm not paid for it.

Again, I don't know the exact situation in KDE dev group and thus don't want to demand anything. I just feel like one should think about this "volunteer" argument once again. It also applies to forums, websites that provide something for somebody and lot of other things. I really appreciate voluntary work, but or especially because there's always some responsibility coming with it.

Bye, smurfer

You see the difference is that as a trainer you devote perhaps two hours a week or even one hour each day. Whereas a developer could work nonstop to fulfill all the wishes of the user. How would you feel if one of your trainees would come up to you, telling you that the way you do the training just isn't right in his opinion and that you actually should do twice as much hours or otherwise you are sooo unprofessional.

And btw, I hardly see any devs "skip the training". I use Gentoo since 1.4 and it has always worked for me just fine. Sure it isn't perfect but I haven't found another distro yet that I'm willing to trade for my beloved Gentoo. ;)
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smurfer
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 07, 2008 4:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Nephilim666,

I see your point and agree with your post. I'm also very happy with gentoo for many years now. I don't want anyone to do more than bearable. It is just this "voluntary" which is often so bromidic and misused. Perhaps I've just read this "argument" to often. I believe there are good and understandable reasons for the KDE ebuilds being delayed, on the other hand I'd like to be a little more informed about the state/progress sometimes.

Cheers, smurfer
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AllenJB
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 07, 2008 4:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's not that the developers are "skipping training" - Think of it more as several thousand trainees and only a handful of trainers. There simply aren't enough devs to do all the work. Therefore they have to pick and choose. Like it or not, they are going to pick things they want to work on first, and there's no way you can change that (if you tried, you'd just end up with even less devs - and even if you didn't. you'd still have just as many users unhappy that their favorite packages are lagging behind, all you've done is shift the problem elsewhere).
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Nephilim666
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 07, 2008 6:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

smurfer wrote:
...on the other hand I'd like to be a little more informed about the state/progress sometimes.

++

Communication between devs and users could definitely be improved.
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Athenaios
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 10:27 pm    Post subject: "split" ebuilds... Reply with quote

Unfortunately, KDE support went completely down-hill as soon as so called "split ebuilds" were forced upon everyone.

Though it is true that the idea of split ebuilds had some merits, it is not supported by the KDE devs, and finding all the intra packages dependencies for every little program and managing all those ebuilds requires a lot of work, for a team that complained already about having not enough resources. So it was a very bad decision management-wise.

The fact was not so evident when split ebuilds were introduced, because the monolithic ones were still there. Now look at the whole picture... Are the weeks (months?) you wait for those split ebuilds to be ready worth the few hours (at most) you could gain by not compiling some parts of KDE packages? Is it worth losing the support of the KDE team that releases only the monolithic packages? Monolithic ebuilds were always available only a few days after the KDE team release.... And as a gentoo user, what about managing use flags for a handful of packages or hundreds? But some people have an agenda to push, or so it seems.

Gentoo *was* about choice. Now it is less true every day.

And before someone evokes the KDE4 guide argument... the confusion came from the fact that the "kde" ebuild installed the monolithic ones, then a user wanting an app used the split ebuild for that app and thus got an error. You could as well keep the monolithic ebuild and rename it "kde-for-has-been" if it pleases you so.. and no more problems.

My two cents.
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asturm
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 10:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The split ebuilds are not the problem. Many people have been using them for ages with KDE3, including me, and never had to wait more than a few days for newer versions to be released. The dependencies have to be figured out once, but after that new releases become routine maintenance.

I never looked back to monolithic KDE. If you desperately need KDE4.1 now, use the overlay and stop complaining unless you contribute.
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Athenaios
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 11:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, the dependencies were figured out for KDE 3 and it took a (very, very) long time IIRC, but KDE 3 was already mature and stable so new versions were easier to update. A lot of people were impatient and were complaining but at least the "monolithic" ebuilds were available for those who needed the system.

Now they must redo it completely for KDE 4.1, which has different content from KDE 4.0 and KDE 4.2 etc. as the KDE 4 project evolves.

I am not against split ebuilds per se... even if I won't use them. As I said, I liked Gentoo as a "choice" distro and this choice, as of now, is no more anyway. I am quite puzzled, on the contrary, by the fierce opposition to the monolithic ebuilds from the split ebuilds users/proponents, despite the fact that they are obviously easier to manage.

My opinion is that the split ebuilds should be considered a luxury, to be done after the monolithic ebuilds, due to their increased complexity, and considering that the gentoo team seem overwhelmed, among over technical or philosophical motives. Close to the source (KDE packages) == easier to maintain. There is no rational way around that logic. The argument that the dependencies have to be figured only once is flawed as soon as the source is not stable enough, which is the case for the evolution to/of KDE 4.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 2:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

do you want kde 4.1 now? eat this (be sure to rtfm under "resources")...

this approach has several advantages:
- it doesn't "pollute" your gentoo box
- you don't need "crappy" or "untrusted" overlays
- bleeding edge! even with packages like amarok, k3b, etc.
- you have the opportunity to be useful submitting bug reports to the kde crew
- developers doesn't need to waste their time answering when it's ready

and just one disadvantage:
- sometimes not all the packages will build (especially on mondays)
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rahulthewall
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 8:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gentoo KDE team is indeed making progress.

http://git.overlays.gentoo.org/gitweb/?p=proj/kde.git;a=summary
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step
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 10:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

rahulthewall3000, thanx for the information.
137 OK, few hundred more to go :)

BTW, this bug #233301 confirms, that KDE team is fracked. :(
Sad, that they did not report this earlyer and did not publish any worst case scenario timetable for KDE41 release.
This was a major PR frackupp and hopefully the gentoo council and other "bigwigs" learn something from this incident.

KDE team (only 2 man?) keep up the good work!
:)
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 12:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

step wrote:


BTW, this bug #233301 confirms, that KDE team is fracked. :(
Sad, that they did not report this earlyer and did not publish any worst case scenario timetable for KDE41 release.
This was a major PR frackupp and hopefully the gentoo council and other "bigwigs" learn something from this incident.

KDE team (only 2 man?) keep up the good work!
:)


The link was posted in one of the comments on that bug. I have been reading that bug for an hour now and all I am saying is that it makes up for some interesting reading. But some of the comments on there must be entirely true for as you pointed out that there are only 2 members in the KDE team. Considering this, the rate of progress with 4.1 is not bad at all.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 7:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Granted I've only read the 1st and 6th page of this thread but seeing how far back it goes i'm depressed to see 4.1 is still not out the door. I've used the kdesvn-portage overlay and followed the guide to creating a different method of .keywords and .unmask. However, portage still kept bitching about packages being masked and so on.

Gentoo's lack of KDE4.1, using eix and seeing the last stable version is years old, etc, grinds my gears sometimes. For now i'm alright with KDE3.5 for now but having used KDE4.1 in Fedora 9's testing repo, I'm mightily impressed and jealous.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 7:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh come on. That's just salt in the wounds now.

Freebsd have kde4.1 in ports
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 9:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm disapointed to see that KDE-4.1 is not in the official tree. :s Several Linux distributions (Ubuntu, Debian, Mandriva and even Slackware) and FreeBSD provide KDE-4.1 to their users ... and what about Gentoo ? We've got nothing ... expect overlays. What the hell is that happening with KDE-4.1 ? Actually I don't really like using overlays but this time I think it could have been quite interesting to move ebuilds from kdesvn-portage to the official tree. These guys who worked on this overlay have done an AMAZING work so it would have been a great and clever idea to consider them as official developpers and to allow them to work directly in the portage tree. In that way, KDE-4.1 (and even pre-releases) would have been already provided to users! Gentoo is known as a community distribution ... :s

KDE-4.1 is a very important release : everyone has been speaking about KDE-4 for months and has been excited about it ... but now nothing is officially available here.

I know that developpers are volontaries but come on guys : KDE-4.1 is a huge release!!! It's not a "bugfixes" release like 4.1.2.3.1.3.12 IT is KDE-4.1! Everyone was waiting for this release and nothing is ready because of this big lack of communication and information!
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 9:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I suppose you haven't read this thread. Do so, you'll find many answers.

Yes KDE4 is important. But at which point did competition between distros come down to a race of being first in releasing certain DEs? Yes, KDE4.1 is not a bugfix-release, that's exactly why it takes a lot of time again to sort out the split ebuilds. Once they're done, Gentoo will again have the best* and potentially slimmest implementation of KDE4.1 of them all. While you can complain about a lack of communication, that is not the cause for the delay - I suspect they rather spend their time doing work than pondering over release time frames.

* other than the bug-patched hell Kubuntu turns it into
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