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Would you leave the current Gentoo for a D.Robbins led "Gentoo fork"?
Yes
49%
 49%  [ 194 ]
No
43%
 43%  [ 168 ]
Only if he retains and uses the Gentoo trademark to form a "New Gentoo".
7%
 7%  [ 28 ]
Total Votes : 390

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Visceral
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 4:53 am    Post subject: Poll: Would you follow a Robbins led Gentoo fork? Reply with quote

With all the talk of the current Gentoo crisis and D.Robbins offer to come back and "re-organize" things, the Gentoo community faces the possibility of making a few tough decisions. Mainly, if the offer is rejected, and Robbins decides to fork Gentoo, would you follow him and use the fork? Would it make a difference if the new fork was called "Gentoo" or would you use it no matter what the new trademark and name was?

Note: Civility in the comments is the order of the day. Additionally, I am in no way associated with D.Robbins or any possible plans to fork the distribution, etc.
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beatryder
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 6:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If the guy who started it all wants to do it again... I'd follow him.

That's not to say I might be back :p
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anello
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 6:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think Daniel Robbins made a clear statement. So figuring from that I don't think that he would fork gentoo!

But I'm really wondering why there is still no fork with paludis???

This gentoo crisis is already taking way too long. If gentoo gets a solid leadership with a proper structure I may install this distribution again.
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imanel
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 7:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's really hard question...
First of all I hope that everything will be ok and Robbins take lead in near future - but it's only mine opinion and bad topic to discuss that. But if we reach schism then every user must think about few questions: where the community stays? Will it be fully functional fork? Will developers move to new distro? Truly I think that moving to fork will be very hard for some of users(big servers must have stable system...) and because of that much of people will not move... In other hand a lot of users without that problem will move...
I said "yes" but I don't think that there will be any fork - too much work...
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asturm
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 9:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

anello wrote:
This gentoo crisis is already taking way too long. If gentoo gets a solid leadership with a proper structure I may install this distribution again.

Gentoo still works, even without proper leadership, no problem there.

About the topic, I don't think a fork will happen as Robbins won't have the time to raise a new distribution, again.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 10:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Unless the current Gentoo messes up on me and starts being archaic, then sure. Until then, I'm satisfied where I am now.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 11:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I will follow a fork of Gentoo. Not because the current Gentoo doesn't work. I guess it is obvious to anyone that it does work (and it works well). But the fact that so many devs don't even think that there are problems should make one wonder.

And BTW, the fact that the website has been updated looks rather bad. Like "let's do a favor to those users who don't do anything but talk anyway."
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 12:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm still trying to figure out what those "problems" are everybody feels the need to complain about. Is there any user who is actually hit by problems that can't be fixed with vim (directly) and by uploading the needed changes to bugzilla? And what exactly is "proper leadership" in an open source project? Would a Führer make the developers work harder? Faster? Make accept proposed (by whom) changes more eagerly? If I was a developer - surely not. It would be a reason to drop my work (remember - it would be MY spare time).

Dirk
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 1:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dirk_salewski wrote:
I'm still trying to figure out what those "problems" are everybody feels the need to complain about. Is there any user who is actually hit by problems that can't be fixed with vim (directly) and by uploading the needed changes to bugzilla? And what exactly is "proper leadership" in an open source project? Would a Führer make the developers work harder? Faster? Make accept proposed (by whom) changes more eagerly? If I was a developer - surely not. It would be a reason to drop my work (remember - it would be MY spare time).

Dirk


You are into a serious confusion. Vim can't help with the management. The crisis is there not because software doesn't compile on our systems. Have a look around at these forums, it will help.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 1:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That depends on how well the fork works. If it has regular releases, good ebuild quality, proper communication to the world, then yes.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 2:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As a user who has only been around in gentoo-land a few months, I don't notice any crises.

It might e.g. be that a re-organised management would be able to raise the profile of Gentoo in the forest of Linux distros out there. And I guess possibly to get developers to the areas they are actually needed. I must say I haven't seen any glaring gaps so far though.

I would hope Daniel Robbins would refrain from forking and that the rest of the leadership team helps him back onboard instead. Linux don't need yet another distro. Gentoo though is quiet unique in its approach, so an even better Gentoo by far the better choice.

Happy New Year, by the way, and keep up the good work!
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 2:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would follow the fork, mainly because I would like to see some serious changes in how stuff is managed... mainly the portage tree.



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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 2:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I really hope that DR will return to lead Gentoo.
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Lepaca Kliffoth
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 3:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is there a Robbins-led fork we should discuss about?
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 3:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dirk_salewski wrote:
I'm still trying to figure out what those "problems" are everybody feels the need to complain about. Is there any user who is actually hit by problems that can't be fixed with vim (directly) and by uploading the needed changes to bugzilla? And what exactly is "proper leadership" in an open source project? Would a Führer make the developers work harder? Faster? Make accept proposed (by whom) changes more eagerly? If I was a developer - surely not. It would be a reason to drop my work (remember - it would be MY spare time).

Dirk

These are the exact questions I've been asking here over the last few days. What exactly, in terms of how well Gentoo works, is so horribly wrong right now? The Gentoo website and the GWN are stagnant, but I can run versions of programs that, with many other distros, would require waiting for a new release. All my Gentoo boxes are quite happy thank you.

Yet when I ask these questions, the best I get are answers like the one you just got:

omnio wrote:

You are into a serious confusion. Vim can't help with the management. The crisis is there not because software doesn't compile on our systems. Have a look around at these forums, it will help.


What kind of answer is that? I've had others along the line of "people have an uneasy feeling" or "it's hard to put into words"...I guess that says it all.

Tom
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omnio
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 4:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tld wrote:
dirk_salewski wrote:
I'm still trying to figure out what those "problems" are everybody feels the need to complain about. Is there any user who is actually hit by problems that can't be fixed with vim (directly) and by uploading the needed changes to bugzilla? And what exactly is "proper leadership" in an open source project? Would a Führer make the developers work harder? Faster? Make accept proposed (by whom) changes more eagerly? If I was a developer - surely not. It would be a reason to drop my work (remember - it would be MY spare time).

Dirk

These are the exact questions I've been asking here over the last few days. What exactly, in terms of how well Gentoo works, is so horribly wrong right now? The Gentoo website and the GWN are stagnant, but I can run versions of programs that, with many other distros, would require waiting for a new release. All my Gentoo boxes are quite happy thank you.

Yet when I ask these questions, the best I get are answers like the one you just got:

omnio wrote:

You are into a serious confusion. Vim can't help with the management. The crisis is there not because software doesn't compile on our systems. Have a look around at these forums, it will help.


What kind of answer is that? I've had others along the line of "people have an uneasy feeling" or "it's hard to put into words"...I guess that says it all.

Tom


See this thread, this page and this one. You don't expect me te repeat all those things to you just because you didn't pay attention, do you?


Last edited by omnio on Wed Jan 16, 2008 4:18 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Lepaca Kliffoth
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 4:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tld wrote:
dirk_salewski wrote:
I'm still trying to figure out what those "problems" are everybody feels the need to complain about. Is there any user who is actually hit by problems that can't be fixed with vim (directly) and by uploading the needed changes to bugzilla? And what exactly is "proper leadership" in an open source project? Would a Führer make the developers work harder? Faster? Make accept proposed (by whom) changes more eagerly? If I was a developer - surely not. It would be a reason to drop my work (remember - it would be MY spare time).

Dirk

These are the exact questions I've been asking here over the last few days. What exactly, in terms of how well Gentoo works, is so horribly wrong right now? The Gentoo website and the GWN are stagnant, but I can run versions of programs that, with many other distros, would require waiting for a new release. All my Gentoo boxes are quite happy thank you.


You have to use 10 overlays to be anywhere near bleeding edge, that's what's wrong with it. And what's with all the exaggerated protection we're getting? In the old days the devs wouldn't have held off KDE 4.0.0 just because of some instability, they would have put it where it belongs: in the ebuild tree, masked, so that people can test it without adding yet another retarded overlay with 10 ebuilds in it. These are the days when Gentoo can't even keep up to Debian. I won't remember them as my Gentoo days, though, I got the fuck out a couple of days ago when I finally couldn't stand the smell of smoke anymore.

Will you guys care to elaborate on what exactly makes you think Robbins will start a fork? Even if he did, that guy couldn't run a Gentoo cup store, let alone a Gentoo-like distro. Let him bitch on his blog with his "Hey, if you want I can come over and take over everything, you've got a week to decide on the future of the distro you're running, kthnxbye" nonsense.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 4:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

omnio wrote:


See this thread, this page and this one. You don't expect me te repeat all those things to you just because you didn't pay attention, do you?


I've been reading those...99% of what's discussed there are issues with the foundation, not with Gentoo itself.

Tom
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 4:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tld wrote:
omnio wrote:


See this thread, this page and this one. You don't expect me te repeat all those things to you just because you didn't pay attention, do you?


I've been reading those...99% of what's discussed there are issues with the foundation, not with Gentoo itself.

Tom


You read all of them? Then read again, because you read them wrong. And try not to hurry this time.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 5:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

YES

Any change is better than no changes at all.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 6:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

omnio wrote:
tld wrote:
omnio wrote:


See this thread, this page and this one. You don't expect me te repeat all those things to you just because you didn't pay attention, do you?


I've been reading those...99% of what's discussed there are issues with the foundation, not with Gentoo itself.

Tom


You read all of them? Then read again, because you read them wrong. And try not to hurry this time.

omnio, I very well understand that emotions can run high, but it seems to me that this could be said in a more friendly way. In the end we all are interested to make things better. There is no reason to tell Tom he "read something wrong" - he probably reads with a different view on things and comes to different conclusions. What can he do with a statement like that?

I actually tend to see truth in both your points. I stand behind my statement that the developers do a good job, which seems to be Toms position as well. On the other hand you're right in saying that the state of affairs on the management side of the project (if the wiki is correct in all points, which I want to assume for now) started to have a negative impact on the technical side.

What I really dislike about the way we (the users) run our gentoo nowadays is the following: in the good old days (2004/5) less than satisfied individuals would have taken appropriate measures to fix things. Become developer, arch tester, documentation writer, pr-girl and so on, and this made a very good community. Not today - it seems that a lot of people have enough energy to complain, complain, complain openly in the forums, sometimes even if they're just gentooists for some months. But while complaining they forget that this is no good pr for our project, and that they could work for the better instead. I mean - this is an open project, really. If you are not satisfied with the management side of things then get up an hour or two earlier and DO WHAT IS NEEDED, or what you can do (not you, omnis, this is said to everybody out there). Complaining about missing paperwork is necessary, documenting missing paperwork nice, but fixed paperwork would help the project most, don't you think so?

And one thing more: if new users encounter threads like "why I'm a consumer-headed wimp and use ubuntu from tomorrow on" first, they of course think that something is wrong and complaining is part of gentoo culture, so they start complaining. About obscure patches not included in gentoo-sources, about KDE 11 not being in standard tree, about missing GNU_HASH_STYLE in glibc and what-do-I-know. You know what? These complainers would be the first who whine that "somehow my bleeding-edge-box does not work", or "debian stable seems to be a bit more stable, I bet there's something wrong with gentoo management". Without ONE SINGLE FIXED EBUILD.

Dirk
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 6:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

He obviously read them wrong since since he said that 99% is about the legal status (or the foundation). And you can't expect friendliness when you didn't take the time to read about the topic, but instead you feel strongly that you have something to say. And now I have some other things to do.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 8:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lepaca Kliffoth wrote:

And what's with all the exaggerated protection we're getting? In the old days the devs wouldn't have held off KDE 4.0.0 just because of some instability, they would have put it where it belongs: in the ebuild tree, masked, so that people can test it without adding yet another retarded overlay with 10 ebuilds in it. These are the days when Gentoo can't even keep up to Debian. I won't remember them as my Gentoo days, though, I got the fuck out a couple of days ago when I finally couldn't stand the smell of smoke anymore.


KDE 4 is going into the tree, masked. what are you talking about? Where did you get that rubbish from?

If your complaining about KDE4 not being in the tree on the day of the release, there are multiple reasons. Most importantly that the kde4 eclasses are a complete rewrite (requiring posts to gentoo-dev for QA checks and the like) done by someone who is only, as of the last couple of days, just become a gentoo dev.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 9:08 pm    Post subject: Why not a fork? Reply with quote

As a chess player I would say that a fork is a powerful method under some circumstances. More seriously, a fork could be beneficial to Gentoo as any competition is as a driving force for innovation.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 9:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Follow a drobbins fork? Me as a user? Why should I?

- I don't expect significant changes to the speed of updates in the portage trees in the fork because it would basically be the same persons contributing ebuilds (drobbins can not provide all the ebuilds some persons are missing at the moment). Complaints about updates not coming to the portage tree would not fall silent in the fork.
- I don't expect the fork to have a community more alive then gentoo. It would be just a subset of the current gentoo community, so why should it be different or even better?
- The trustees seem not to be very active the last few months, e.g. see missed filing of papers for foundation. This is indeed a problem that has to be resolved. But this has nothing to do with most of the things many users are unhappy with.
- Less devs than users seem to like the idea of drobbins coming back to gentoo (at least it's my impression from what I read in this forum). So, I don't expect the majority of devs to follow the fork. So how could the fork be better than gentoo?

I think it would be better to improve current gentoo than making a fork. How this can be done? I have no idea, yet. But the drobbins discussion is a chance to find out...
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