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dg10050
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 2:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the great explanation, nightmorph.

To the people saying that all bugs should be put up on Bugzilla: Do you guys realize that posting to bugzilla can be a bit of a hassle? The one thing that I've noticed when setting up a new user on Ubuntu is that whenever something crashes and that nice little Launchpad bug reporter app comes up, they always try to submit a bug the first time it comes up. Then they realize that they have to describe the bug, post log files, and then keep in touch with developers to tell them if the bug has been fixed. That's a bit of a hassle if you don't even know if that bug was a huge issue or not.
Anyway, I could be wrong. :)
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cwr
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 2:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nightmorph wrote:
@Benni123:

Believe whatever you want; it really doesn't affect us in releng. You must have missed this earlier post by another developer. There are lots of checks to be made by infrastructure in addition to releng once the media is assembled.

And yes, staging takes awhile. The media and stages occupy a considerable amount of space, and it does take time for all our many mirrors to receive them and set them up on their end. There's not just "one server"; there are dozens.

You're pretty much talking out of your hind end at this point. What you believe is irrelevant, because you don't know anything about the release process. The family issues you mention have nothing to do with it, though it would be appreciated if you were not completely insensitive to the death of family members.



The contempt shown to Gentoo users in this post is not a good advertisement for Gentoo developers, and does not fill me with a wild,
spontaneous enthusiam to assist them. Unfortunately it seems to be the default attitude of many developers. My advice is that if you don't
enjoy doing development work (and it is _hard_ work) then quit.

Will
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durty_nacho
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 3:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
To the people saying that all bugs should be put up on Bugzilla: Do you guys realize that posting to bugzilla can be a bit of a hassle?


That's a poor excuse.
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dg10050
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 3:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

durty_nacho wrote:
Quote:
To the people saying that all bugs should be put up on Bugzilla: Do you guys realize that posting to bugzilla can be a bit of a hassle?


That's a poor excuse.

If it's a big bug then sure, it should be on Bugzilla. Sometimes devs just want to see if they can fix it first. If not then it would make sense to put it on Bugzilla.

Anyway, I have very little experience with this so I'm just going to shut up now. No use starting an argument.
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xargos
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 4:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dg10050 wrote:

To the people saying that all bugs should be put up on Bugzilla: Do you guys realize that posting to bugzilla can be a bit of a hassle? The one thing that I've noticed when setting up a new user on Ubuntu is that whenever something crashes and that nice little Launchpad bug reporter app comes up, they always try to submit a bug the first time it comes up. Then they realize that they have to describe the bug, post log files, and then keep in touch with developers to tell them if the bug has been fixed. That's a bit of a hassle if you don't even know if that bug was a huge issue or not.
Anyway, I could be wrong. :)


I would think that the Gentoo development team is probably much more knowledgeable than the average end user and capable of using Bugzilla. Seeing as how the PPC/PPC64 CDs were found to have been made useless on a version the team was working on, I would think they would have enough information to post the bug.

If a bug is big enough to delay a release, I would think that would qualify for the "huge issue" status.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 5:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

yngwin wrote:
/me raises hand.

/me too

I might have no clue about catalyst and even though i'm myself a hardcore techie i'm impressed by the dedication the devs put into testing each and everything again and again. Might give a real benefit to the project to split these (currently non-)independent but closely related to each other 'we _do_ the new releases'/'we _talk about_ the new releases'-groups.
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marcus0263
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 8:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A simple link on the main page of gentoo.org for release status would really solve a LOT of problems you know ;)

A quick simple entry like "Release delayed due to .........."

It would take 60 seconds to post the entry and satisfy 99.99% of the Herd.
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d2_racing
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 9:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

marcus0263 wrote:
A simple link on the main page of gentoo.org for release status would really solve a LOT of problems you know ;)

A quick simple entry like "Release delayed due to .........."

It would take 60 seconds to post the entry and satisfy 99.99% of the Herd.


In fact, an update is require just to keep us inform about this current project.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 11:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What most of you are missing is that Bugzilla is not a fast way of solving bugs. The issue popped up on our email alias, so the team worked together on IRC to identify and solve the issue. IRC is how rapid development is done, not on Bugzilla. And since we're short on time for the release, IRC is the obvious, natural solution to getting things done quickly. We can fix something in a matter of minutes to hours this way, rather than wait for the tediousness of Bugzilla responses. Problems are fixed much more rapidly when we can interact in real time, which is why the #-releng channel exists.
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NathanZachary
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 12:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nightmorph,

Thank you for your very thorough explanation on the previous page. I agree with your call for activism regarding a relay of releng information to the Gentoo users. Maybe a liaison between releng and the userbase would be appropriate and helpful.
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Benni123
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 1:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
What most of you are missing is that Bugzilla is not a fast way of solving bugs

Maybe true. But it is also important as a documenting database.

Imagine all Bugs would be solved within discussions of IRC channels. If now some users stumble upon a Bug that was thought to be fixed, but in fact the problem was not completely removed, then, the user had no reliable database to look for. Is he the only one with this problem? Have others found solutions?
Documenting problems in a public database is essential for open source projects.

If one wants to use a system, where the users do not know what fixes for what problems have been applied, he or she can go ahead with Windows Vista!

Quote:
We can fix something in a matter of minutes to hours this way,
But it seems that the problems with the release are so severe, that they are remaining after several days....

And in fact, i do not think one needs a press release institution to file bugs in Bugzilla and anounce that there are several blockers causing a delay with a link to the bugzilla database...

Seemingly the changelog got upadated recently:
http://sources.gentoo.org/viewcvs.py/releng/trunk/releases/2008.0/ChangeLog?rev=557&view=log
But from this, no one can figure out, if this change made the problem go away....

There is a reason for Bugzilla because of its database capabilities. Otherwise one would only use changelogs if they were an appropriate replacement...
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srunni
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 2:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you for the response nightmorph, but my statement remains valid. All I ask for is a one sentence confirmation that the release is still being worked on. This is the final version of the 2008.0 release, not some beta. It's not just developers that hang out on IRC all the time that are interested in this release - the casual user who just visits the site is also going to be interested. If an issue pops up at the last minute, I'm sure that it wouldn't take you more than 30 seconds to make a short post on the Gentoo homepage saying that the release has been delayed. However, if you absolutely need a liaison to take care of PR issues like this - you have two now. I hope this isn't a problem again in the future.
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Landor
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 3:51 am    Post subject: The Release Reply with quote

I don't post here basically, though I read the forums a lot, as well as follow any news regarding Gentoo.

This is truly an amazing distro, I'm sure we can all say that. But I have to agree with the others here. A short post on the Gentoo page, and possibly here for announcements/news would go a long way. I found it odd that on July 1st Donnie, the PR Team Leader could post regarding Bugday, but not about the delay in the release. Not saying Bugday isn't important, but it is a monthly event, and the last release of Gentoo is very close to 14 months ago.

I've been an advocate of Gentoo at Distrowatch, some of you may have seen, or not. But regarding the above, when Bugday takes precedence over an easily quick announcement about the delay. I do have to understand why a lot of people believe there is a lot that needs to be fixed.

I know the devs have a job that gives them usually little in the way of kudos or thanks from the general userbase. It is no doubt a thankless job for the most part, on the other hand, a small tidbit of info might go a long way to keep things calm, instead of a couple of the more strained posts I have seen here from devs and users.
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Benni123
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 4:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I found it odd that on July 1st Donnie, the PR Team Leader could post regarding Bugday, but not about the delay in the release.
Maybe the developers did not inform anyone outside their releng team what they are doing.

I think this is the classical behavior of closed source projects. In open source everything should be documented. And not only in a changelog when it is finally done!

Hopefully there are no more blockers and the release process can now go on (as is indicated by the changelog)...
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node_one
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 7:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nightmorph and releng developers,

As a simple user, I personally do not need to know exactly why a release is delayed. However, I think some kind of timely communication between Gentoo as a whole and the user base is necessary when events as important as a release are going to occur.

I do not know in detail how Gentoo is structured and what the process of updating all the media outlets Gentoo uses is. Therefore, I do not know if this is possible, but I think that you or any member of your team should be able to send something like this to PR
Code:
PR,

Problem.  Delay 1 week.  Inform users.  Thanks.

and have them handle everything for you. They should be able to update the release schedule and put out an announcement on the webpage, forum, RSS etc. that sounds more like this.
Code:
Release Engineering has informed us that there is a problem that is going to delay the upcoming 2008.0 final release by one week.  Details have not been disclosed to us yet.  We will publish those as they become available.  The new estimated release date is now _______.

The PR Team

Also, I understand that it may be difficult to give a good estimate on how long a release is going to be delayed. That is understandable. In that case, give a bad estimate and it if expires, give another bad one, and another. Overestimate every time. That way users like me know that a release has not been canceled, for example, and have some idea of how long the delay is going to be. To me at least this much information is important and I find it very valuable.
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xargos
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 1:46 pm    Post subject: Re: The Release Reply with quote

Landor wrote:
But I have to agree with the others here. A short post on the Gentoo page, and possibly here for announcements/news would go a long way. I found it odd that on July 1st Donnie, the PR Team Leader could post regarding Bugday, but not about the delay in the release. Not saying Bugday isn't important, but it is a monthly event, and the last release of Gentoo is very close to 14 months ago.


I kinda thought that was funny, too. With all the discussion going on in here about the delay, there still wasn't an update to the main page. :roll:
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NathanZachary
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 3:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

node_one wrote:
Nightmorph and releng developers,

As a simple user, I personally do not need to know exactly why a release is delayed. However, I think some kind of timely communication between Gentoo as a whole and the user base is necessary when events as important as a release are going to occur.

I do not know in detail how Gentoo is structured and what the process of updating all the media outlets Gentoo uses is. Therefore, I do not know if this is possible, but I think that you or any member of your team should be able to send something like this to PR
Code:
PR,

Problem.  Delay 1 week.  Inform users.  Thanks.

and have them handle everything for you. They should be able to update the release schedule and put out an announcement on the webpage, forum, RSS etc. that sounds more like this.
Code:
Release Engineering has informed us that there is a problem that is going to delay the upcoming 2008.0 final release by one week.  Details have not been disclosed to us yet.  We will publish those as they become available.  The new estimated release date is now _______.

The PR Team

Also, I understand that it may be difficult to give a good estimate on how long a release is going to be delayed. That is understandable. In that case, give a bad estimate and it if expires, give another bad one, and another. Overestimate every time. That way users like me know that a release has not been canceled, for example, and have some idea of how long the delay is going to be. To me at least this much information is important and I find it very valuable.


This may be a very helpful method of keeping users informed. I also do not know the structure of either the PR or Releng teams, so I'm not sure how well it would work for them. Thanks for suggesting this method of communication.

Regarding the updates on the main page, it may be that Donnie doesn't want to announce anything about the release until a better estimate of a release date is determined.
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marcus0263
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 6:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kalos wrote:
This may be a very helpful method of keeping users informed. I also do not know the structure of either the PR or Releng teams, so I'm not sure how well it would work for them. Thanks for suggesting this method of communication.

Regarding the updates on the main page, it may be that Donnie doesn't want to announce anything about the release until a better estimate of a release date is determined.


Well something on the main page like "released delayed due to a show stopper, new release date forthcoming" wouldn't really be that difficult, would it?
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xargos
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 7:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

marcus0263 wrote:
Well something on the main page like "released delayed due to a show stopper, new release date forthcoming" wouldn't really be that difficult, would it?


You wouldn't think so...

Even without a new estimated date, a quick blip saying that there is a delay would be helpful. A person shouldn't need to dig into the forums to find out what is going on.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 10:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
This may be a very helpful method of keeping users informed. I also do not know the structure of either the PR or Releng teams, so I'm not sure how well it would work for them. Thanks for suggesting this method of communication.


kalos, I have been trying to find additional information on Gentoo operations for a while. Mainly so I can understand how Gentoo, as an organization, works; how things get done across the board. I hope I am the only user who is in the dark about how you guys do things. If there are any resources you think that I may have missed, please PM me some links. I would appreciate it.

Quote:
I kinda thought that was funny, too. With all the discussion going on in here about the delay, there still wasn't an update to the main page.

Quote:
Well something on the main page like "released delayed due to a show stopper, new release date forthcoming" wouldn't really be that difficult, would it?

The only thing I think is important to stress here is that not everyone checks every Gentoo media outlet all the time. People work differently and prefer different ways to get their information. People that have read this particular forum have an idea of what is going on, but people that rely on the main page or the release engineering page are still be in the dark. For a while, as a new Gentoo user, I used to be one of those persons. Some people might find this "darkness" unacceptable and be turned off by Gentoo solely because of this reason. I think this is very unfortunate, and something that can be easily prevented. Also, not everyone might want to install the 2008.0 beta and new users might be waiting on this to try out Gentoo for the first time.
Quote:
Regarding the updates on the main page, it may be that Donnie doesn't want to announce anything about the release until a better estimate of a release date is determined.

I do not think that is an appropriate course of action. If the time range of new, expected release dates is so vast that it would be inappropriate to "speculate", post about that then. Let the users know, on the website, that releng is assessing the situation and a new release date will be announced at some, dated, point in the future.
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srunni
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 10:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think another issue is that because of the way Gentoo is designed, upgrading to the 2008.0 release just requires a profile change for those who already have Gentoo installed. Thus, the community isn't that enthusiastic about a point release like this, since it's essentially meaningless for the distribution itself---it only matters for the install process. As I'm getting ready to do an install, I'm interested in it. Most other users are simply changing their profile over to 2008.0 and going on their merry way.
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d2_racing
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 03, 2008 3:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

srunni wrote:
I think another issue is that because of the way Gentoo is designed, upgrading to the 2008.0 release just requires a profile change for those who already have Gentoo installed. Thus, the community isn't that enthusiastic about a point release like this, since it's essentially meaningless for the distribution itself---it only matters for the install process. As I'm getting ready to do an install, I'm interested in it. Most other users are simply changing their profile over to 2008.0 and going on their merry way.


In fact, but if you have an awesome HDD crash and you need to reinstall Gentoo. You need to use the Funtoo stage instead of the Official Gentoo Stages. For some people, it's really weird to see a distro that is a step back from a person that contribute to the project aside of the official branch.
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srunni
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 03, 2008 3:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

d2_racing wrote:
In fact, but if you have an awesome HDD crash and you need to reinstall Gentoo. You need to use the Funtoo stage instead of the Official Gentoo Stages. For some people, it's really weird to see a distro that is a step back from a person that contribute to the project aside of the official branch.

Yeah, I use the Funtoo stages as well. But my point was that the hype that builds up around a new release of Ubuntu, Fedora, openSUSE, etc. doesn't exist in the Gentoo community because of the way Gentoo is structured. This causes a lot of apathy about when the releng team actually releases the new version of the installer. That's rather unfortunate, as it may drive away new users, who both have an interest in the installer because they are just about to start using Gentoo and because they are used to importance being placed in such point releases in the communities of other distros.
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d2_racing
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 03, 2008 3:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In fact, the newbies need a good handbook and a minimal CD that is up to date.

I'm sure that we lost some peoples because of that right now.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 03, 2008 4:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm running 2007.0 on my development server at home and it goes really smoothly, but I need to setup a couple new dedicated servers for the people I work for and I prefer going with the latest release instead than upgrading from the previous version. In fact, I have to run 5 setups (4 servers - 1 at home -, and my desktop) which means 5 upgrades.

I've been delaying these setups because of the release problems and I'm almost sure that if the people I work for see this topic they will not fill as confortable as I am with Gentoo and they may make me choose another distro, which means that I will have to deal with yum or aptitude for a couple years. NO.

Having all these delay problems makes me feel (just a feeling) that the project isn't going as well as any other distros and makes feel uncomfortable by the fact that if we are dealing with this unsolved delay issues, what could happen if tomorrow there are no more developers interested in continuing with the project?

Please, don't take this personal. I just wanted to add my point of view as a proud user. Proud after all.
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