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AllenJB
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 1:58 am    Post subject: Gentoo Trustee's Post Update Reply with quote

The Gentoo Trustee's have posted an update on the current situation to the gentoo-nfp mailing list: http://archives.gentoo.org/gentoo-nfp/msg_01347.xml
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muaddib
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 4:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The link posted above leads to important information for anyone interested in the future of Gentoo.
Interesting and enlightening.

Question : After having read all this, I wandered around in the Gentoo Foundation 'links'. Can anyone tell me why the latest financial report dates back to 2005? I guess the Foundation has some constraints as to what must be made public and when.
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southerngentooman
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 4:56 am    Post subject: What about the Experience? Reply with quote

User Reply:

Well it is good to at least get a knee jerk reaction from what is left of the management. However, my time is just as precious to me as any developer’s time is to them. I spend most of my time working and being a part of my family. I also have some private time, just for me, to do the things I enjoy. Unfortunately that is a very long list, and so I have to pick and chose where to be and I have to use good judgment that what I have chosen will give me an appropriate payback, the personal reward. One of my hobbies is golfing. No need to go there on this list, but I hope you can all appreciate that most of us need some physical activity in our lives. Another is tinkering with computers. I’ve been doing that for most of my life. Things like using BASIC’s POKE command to code in machine language for a TRS Coco, searching through the raw data of a boot sector looking for clues as to unravel the copy protection on an Apple IIe floppy disk, or spending days compiling code for a Stage 1 Gentoo install. Why would I do the later? Why chose that endeavor from all the possible tinkering options there are these days?

Well, it is certainly not about web surfing and reading email. Frankly, Internet Explorer and Outlook do a fantastic job.

It is certainly not about security concerns! Well sure there are security holes in Windows, but for the most part Microsoft aggressively produces patches and along with using a bit of common sense it is not a big issue for me. I’ve been using Windows since version 2.0 and have never had a virus or had anyone exploit my computer (and why would they anyway?). (Now I have certainly been called upon by many friends and co-workers to help them clean a virus off of their machine. But that’s another topic.)

It is certainly not about gaming! No need to beat a dead horse, but Linux gaming does not offer any entertainment value for me. I can appreciate that some people enjoy the nuts and bolts aspects of tweaking this or that to get some games to work but then its no longer about playing the game.

It’s not about being monetarily free. I don’t need to feel like I’ve got all this power without spending money on it. Frankly my time is worth a lot more than a hundred bucks here and there for decent dependable software. Computing is much cheaper than Golf!

It’s not about the open concept. Hey, if I was a developer, I’d probably feel a lot different, but frankly from my prespective, the GPL2, etc. etc. is Linux’s Achilles Heel and prevents Linux from become the ultimate OS. But that’s another topic.

It’s not about having thousands of aps. I think most distributions of Linux install way too many applications. I don’t need 40 text editors, 5 different browsers, 30 email programs, etc.

It’s not about stability. It is not the unforgiveable sin for an errant process to crash the computer. Rebooting a computer is no big deal. Besides, Windows XP Pro is amazingly stable compared to MS’s previous efforts so I don’t see this as much of a issue anymore. From what I’ve seen of Vista I think it sucks big time, but stability is not the reason. If what I read is true, Vista Business is more stable than XP Pro.

No, none of those things.

But I chose Gentoo over all the other OS options out there because of a philosophy:

Quote:
“Every user has work they need to do. The goal of Gentoo is to design tools and systems that allow a user to do that work as pleasantly and efficiently as possible, as they see fit. Our tools should be a joy to use, and should help the user to appreciate the richness of the Linux and free software community, and the flexibility of free software. This is only possible when the tool is designed to reflect and transmit the will of the user, and leave the possibilities open as to the final form of the raw materials (the source code.) If the tool forces the user to do things a particular way, then the tool is working against, rather than for, the user. We have all experienced situations where tools seem to be imposing their respective wills on us. This is backwards, and contrary to the Gentoo philosophy.
Put another way, the Gentoo philosophy is to create better tools. When a tool is doing its job perfectly, you might not even be very aware of its presence, because it does not interfere and make its presence known, nor does it force you to interact with it when you don't want it to. The tool serves the user rather than the user serving the tool.
The goal of Gentoo is to strive to create near-ideal tools. Tools that can accommodate the needs of many different users all with divergent goals. Don't you love it when you find a tool that does exactly what you want to do? Doesn't it feel great? Our mission is to give that sensation to as many people as possible.
Daniel Robbins
Previous Chief Architect”


I’ve been hearing a lot of this and that, but I haven’t heard any users or developers discussing whether or not the Gentoo Project still fits the bill.

So I ask you:
    Is Gentoo a Joy to use?
    Is using Gentoo pleasant?
    Is Gentoo efficient?
    Is the experience rich and rewarding?
    Is Gentoo moving forward; toward doing its job perfectly?
    Does Gentoo feel great?


It’s all about the experience!
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sundialsvc4
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 5:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Peace.

State paperwork is "necessary but otherwise-annoying crap." Corporations fail to file their paperwork on-time all the time. No big deal.

As for Gentoo itself... "just keep up the good work, and don't take yourself too seriously." No matter what your product is, some people will like it and some people won't. Some people will tell you about it, a few in no uncertain terms, and most people won't. A few will become religious about it, but most people won't. So... just keep up the good work and grab a fine beer at the end of the day at the pub at least once a week. Never take yourself too seriously. No matter how good a job you do, sex will always be better. ;)

Peace.
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muaddib
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 5:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

southerngentooman, I find your way of exposing things really interesting. I agree with most of your points and you made me remember a link in the leftmost column of the front page of the Gentoo website called... Philosophy :) After seven years of Gentoo experience, you come to forget such things, unfortunately. But let me answer your questions (thinking out loud) :

Is Gentoo a Joy to use? Is using Gentoo pleasant? -- To me, it has always been and still is.
Is Gentoo efficient? -- I haven't found a system more efficient than Gentoo. Ever.
Is the experience rich and rewarding? -- Gentoo was (and still is) my linux teacher. It taught me so much! I will always be grateful for this.
Is Gentoo moving forward; toward doing its job perfectly? -- That, I can't be certain... Too much is going on right now concerning the future of Gentoo. But in a way, I don't think anyone wishes Gentoo to die. Every 'devs' are doing there best to improve Gentoo. I'm sure of this.
Does Gentoo feel great? Finally : yes. I'm in a way proud to say that I have a Gentoo system because it is the best thing I can offer to myself in that matter.

Long live Gentoo!
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Visceral
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 5:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well written. As for the future, I still hold my position that the remaining trustees should accept Robbins offer and move things along. It's my opinion, of course, but I'd like to see Gentoo get back to being more user friendly, current and functioning like it did in the past. In any case, I'm just one voice.
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chris.c.hogan
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 5:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd say that Grant Goodyear has written a well thought out and reasonable response to the insanity I've been reading for the last week or so. I encourage all interested parties to join the discussion in gentoo-nfp. Lets hope that the conversation remains reasonable and intelligent.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 5:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Visceral wrote:
Well written. As for the future, I still hold my position that the remaining trustees should accept Robbins offer and move things along. It's my opinion, of course, but I'd like to see Gentoo get back to being more user friendly, current and functioning like it did in the past. In any case, I'm just one voice.
++ Make that two.
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valkyrite
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 2:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We have two trustees left (Grant Goodyear and pauldv). IMHO, it would be a good idea to add Daniel Robbins to the trustee list.

I also found the last edition of GWN in my mailbox today. :D
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 3:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

valkyrite wrote:
I also found the last edition of GWN in my mailbox today.

Sweet! Me too.
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jonnevers
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 6:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Visceral wrote:
Well written. As for the future, I still hold my position that the remaining trustees should accept Robbins offer and move things along. It's my opinion, of course, but I'd like to see Gentoo get back to being more user friendly, current and functioning like it did in the past. In any case, I'm just one voice.

when was gentoo ever use friendly? I think you people are seriously confused.

i mean you can't even make a thread without some gentoo "user" trolling it with their oh so very important "opinion". meh, we could do without some of these 'users'. in fact, i have a suspicion that some of these "users" that can't stop spouting off do not even use Gentoo as their primary OS.
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steveL
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 7:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Visceral wrote:
As for the future, I still hold my position that the remaining trustees should accept Robbins offer and move things along. It's my opinion, of course, but I'd like to see Gentoo get back to being more user friendly, current and functioning like it did in the past. In any case, I'm just one voice.

I agree that's how things should progress, but not by acceptance of the "offer." For a start it's not up to the trustees, since he wants control of the Council as well.
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quantumsummers
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2008 6:29 am    Post subject: Response to Grant Goodyear's Foundation Update Reply with quote

Greetings,

First, I wish to state that I am a long time Gentoo user and over the past several years I have been nothing but happy with Gentoo. It is my opinion that Gentoo is the greatest of all GNU/Linux distributions, and I want to extend my most hearty gratitude to the entire Gentoo community, to the developers, to the users,to everyone involved, both in the past and in the present, for all of the effort over the years. It has been monumental. Many thanks.

I now own a small development company & we use Gentoo (Hardened-amd64) on our development & production servers. What's more I happen to deal largely in the non-profit, foundation, and grant world. It is with regard to this particular aspect of my expertise that I wish to inform the various governmental bodies of Gentoo that there is a vast ocean of possibilities, and funding, available to non-profits & foundations. This to perhaps inspire new thinking about the role of Gentoo and the Gentoo community in the world at large.


I am of the opinion that Gentoo should not contract the SFC to manage the Foundation for the following reasons.

-With responsible governance there is no real need to be under the umbrella of another larger organization. -The SFC may or may not have the funding, capacity, or longevity to handle as large an organization as Gentoo.
-The SFC will surely take some Gentoo generated funding away from Gentoo to cover administrative costs, etc, that, given responsible governance, could be used for the greater benefit of Gentoo and the Gentoo community.

There are significant amounts of money available to NPOs, like Gentoo, from Federal grant programs to the more mundane private charitable donations. In general, these funding opportunities require program development and partnerships with other organizations and institutions such as community based non-profits and universities. The real beauty of these opportunities is that it fosters a relationship between our Gentoo community and the larger public, be it on a smaller local level with other community-based non-profits or on a larger scale with multi university research partnerships, etc. One of the many benefits of this type of interaction is that funding can be allocated for many different activities, for example, provisions for administrative costs, new equipment, training programs, salaries, incentives for developers, and a premium experience for users. Therefore, with this kind of funding, Gentoo can help its own community members while also assisting others. Which, in my opinion, is one of the strongest characteristics of the Gentoo community, helping others. This is demonstrated on IRC, in the forums, and in the email lists every day. Why would we need to belong to a larger organization to do these things? Why do we need an organization, like the SFC, to "manage" Gentoo. Perhaps we ought simply solicit them for pro bono legal assistance in emergency situations.


I am of the opinion that Gentoo should welcome the return of Daniel Robbins, but in a somewhat more limited sense than his recent offer.

Mr. Robbins is obviously an extremely intelligent and dedicated individual that seems to really care about the health of Gentoo. In addition, Mr. Robbins has a large amount of experience in the larger world of business and software development. Thus it seems reasonable to posit that he may indeed have some very good ideas regarding the direction of Gentoo. I, for one, welcome a transparent roadmap that I would have the opportunity to review and comment on. Prior to starting a business I was rather happy to simply remain on the fringe of the Gentoo community. My main interest was in using the meta-distro to accomplish some very specific research related work as well as use on my personal machines. However, now that I rely on Gentoo from a business perspective I find myself much more interested in and concerned about the general direction of Gentoo. Thus, a more transparent governance would put my mind at ease and provide a means for greater communication with Gentoo's developers.


What follows are some suggestions.

Consider the use of university internship programs for projects like documentation (technical writing students) & The GMN (journalism students). These programs are a requirement to graduate for many university students. With that, many companies and other organizations offer resume-building experience in their field in the form of these unpaid internships. I'm sure many of you have had the pleasure of an unpaid internship. The Gentoo Foundation can leverage its status as a well known GNU/Linux distribution and a legitimate global organization to attract the leading universities around the world. What I mean to say is that people pay attention to Gentoo and there exists a certain level of expectation of quality from the larger tech world. To really floor the critics, solicit a few English departments at some highly respected university to collaborate with a team of developers and users to create and maintain documentation and write a regular news letter. I know a few good writers and if you give them the right information to start with then answer any questions they have along the way you get really nice work. What writer wouldn't like to have their name on really well written, and heavily viewed pages? Talk about an attention grabber.

Further, consider using internship programs to assist with the management and governance of the Gentoo Foundation itself. There are many university programs that focus on non-profit and foundation management. Create programs that give opportunities to these students to participate in the day to day business of the Gentoo Foundation. They can act in supporting roles for the trustees and counsel members and other various committees. Hey, its worth university credit to the student and its free to Gentoo.


Consider the implementation of a Gentoo Patron program, such that companies and other organizations have an opportunity to support the Foundation, be it financially or with volunteers. In return, offer some Patron Profile Page to give the donors some visibility. Further, as a small business owner I have to say, its sometimes very tough to locally procure for employment a good developer, administrator, or otherwise one that knows their way around Gentoo or GNU/Linux for that matter. I imagine that other companies have similar issues. Thus some way for companies and organization to be exposed to the larger Gentoo community would be a significant return on any investment.

Consider a partnership with a larger organization, like Google, to extend the users experience in novel ways. One example would be the use of some social networking tools to aid the Gentoo community in collaborations on code, documentation, etc.


In closing, I want to offer thanks for a job well done. It has taken the dedication of many individuals to get Gentoo to where it is today. This spirit is not gone. Thus, we look toward a bright future. If anyone wishes to contact me for any reason please do so, I would be pleased to answer any questions. If I can provide any further information or assistance, please don't hesitate to ask.

Best Regards,
Matthew Summers
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nixnut
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2008 2:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

merged above post here.
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desultory
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 10:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Split off topic "Trolling and rebuttal.", the penultimate two posts of which could have remained in this topic, though context would have been lost.
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steveL
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 1:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

quantumsummers: I like your ideas wrt to funding, but I really do believe the devs should hand over administrative control of the Foundation to either the SFC or the SPI. The board of the SFC seems like a good set of people and the member projects like good company; if not the SPI looks cool too. Both would ensure Gentoo devs could get on with developing, without giving up control over their work, and we would never have to worry about these sort of issues again.

I don't like the Google idea though ;)
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