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Xake
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2008 7:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kwisatz_haderais wrote:
Now, the only question that remains is:
Is it really easier to edit your /etc/hal/fdi/policy/xyz xml file than configuring xorg.conf, as it used to be? ;)


For me it is since I only had to specify my keymap in a file I called 10-keymaps.fdi. After that I removed everything input-related from my xorg. No problems so far. Compared to how fun it was setting up evdev for my keyboards and mouse last time, this was far easier.

But for a person who has a "configure one tim, run forever" computer I bet this does no bigger diffrence (and could even be more demanding until the easiy tools to handle the stuff have appered). Unless he knows nothing about xorg.conf, but then again I bet he does not run something like gentoo where you have to configure xorg.conf yourself.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 12:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

found the man for evdev just in case someone wants a reference:

http://linux.die.net/man/4/evdev
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 11:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This isn't "stable" this kind of shit doesn't even belong in ~arch. I've tried recursively unsetting my keyboard settings, I've tried maps, I've tried fdi's, I've googled all over hell and gone.I've used ~arch for years, and 99% of the time stuff works with a little fiddling, there's not even a bloody howto. I've got a microsoft natural keyboard(yeah I know it's microsoft, but I've gotten used to the natural layout and no one else makes one that isn't crap, it's worked for ages in linux), and I still get screenshot from up.

This is the kind of shit which is starting to really turn me off linux. Major changes in configuration with no documentation. Testing is supposed to be "it's broken sometimes" not, it breaks your ability to do basic keyboard tasks in X.
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simoo
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 11:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What problems are you having and what documentation do you need?
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Eskarel
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 2:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The problem I'm having is that when I press up in gnome I get screenshot, everything else works fine. I've managed to work around it by disabling screenshot in keyboard shortcuts, but that's not a fix.

The information I need is why when I follow exactly the same steps as everyone else it doesn't fix my problem. I'm not even using an international layout. I have some multi-media buttons, and those get picked up. I need documentation on how on earth I can set up a Microsoft Natural Keyboard 4000 to work under evdev without having to disable gnome features, and when people say that there isn't a problem with a system which is supposed to make life easier by auto detecting hardware is harder to configure than the old way.

As for documentation, I'd like any documentation about keyboard functionality at all. I've looked all over the web to verify that I was using the right layout, variant, etc, and I can't even find a list of what layouts and variants there are. I know I'm using a us layout keyboard, but just US with no variant obviously isn't working properly. I know that the keyboard I have is a little odd, it's two USB devices, and it has a bunch of keys on it, but it's been supported by the kernel for several versions now, it works just fine in run level 3, it just doesn't work properly in gnome.

It'd also be nice to have any documentation for hal whatsoever. I've checked all over the web, looked at the man pages, nothing on how to actually set it up.

I've removed all my gnome settings, reverted everything I've seen indicated as revertable, I've never changed my keyboard layout with anything other than xorg.conf or it's predecessors. I've been using linux to varying degrees for years, I know XML, all this should be easy, but it doesn't work properly, and it hasn't been working properly for weeks, and the really shitty thing is that the old system worked just fine, and it just got over ridden with something that doesn't work properly.

This isn't the first time that this has happened with X either, or the kernel, or any number of other packages. The spec changes, the old way doesn't work and it's pushed without any consultation with other packages. I don't mind fiddling around with my PC, and I am capable of modifying code, but I shouldn't have to spend a weak working out how a major piece of code works so I can fix a bug which shouldn't have existed in the first place, or make a piece of software work which was using an interface that's existed for years and all of a sudden doesn't any more.
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Aysen
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 4:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Did you choose "Evdev-managed keyboard" as your keyboard model in KDE?
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 6:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Eskarel wrote:
This isn't the first time that this has happened with X either, or the kernel, or any number of other packages. The spec changes, the old way doesn't work and it's pushed without any consultation with other packages. I don't mind fiddling around with my PC, and I am capable of modifying code, but I shouldn't have to spend a weak working out how a major piece of code works so I can fix a bug which shouldn't have existed in the first place, or make a piece of software work which was using an interface that's existed for years and all of a sudden doesn't any more.


The real question is whether Gentoo is a suitable distribution for anything other than as a hobby. This used to be true for linux in general, but now the question has moved to bleeding edge distros like Gentoo - which does not preclude us from using it at work. It just puts as on the (bleeding) edge a bit more. ;)

Seriously, if you've seen it a number of times before - you know what to expect. This isn't a tenth as big an upheaval as the move to modular X, all you have to do is add:
Code:
xorg-x11/xorg-server -hal

to /etc/portage/package.use, or block hal 0.5.10, or add
Code:
Section "ServerFlags"
        Option          "AutoAddDevices"        "False"
EndSection

to xorg.conf.

All of these fixes have been mentioned in this thread. I too have a keyboard that it's impossible to get to work right now (Macbook) - so I had opt out on the hal-xorg-evdev combo for now. You can't insist on having the most arterially bleeding edge, and a working system at the same time - and the problem is easy to configure away.
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simoo
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 11:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Eskarel wrote:
The problem I'm having is that when I press up in gnome I get screenshot, everything else works fine. I've managed to work around it by disabling screenshot in keyboard shortcuts, but that's not a fix.


I had that exact same problem but in KDE, it didn't happen before X11 started (the arrow keys were fine then), I just had to tell KDE I was using an "Evdev-managed keyboard" as my keyboard model.

You can see what layouts are available in '/usr/share/X11/xkb/rules/xorg.lst'

and documentation for evdev is here: http://linux.die.net/man/4/evdev I found that very usefull.

Hope that helps, if not just go back to the older stuff that works for you (and is still the stuff included in most distros).
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Eskarel
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 8:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've got it set to evedev-managed, so that didn't help, I'll check out the evdev doco when I get a chance. My frustration with this issue isn't so much about the actual issue itself, it's more that every time I think linux is almost ready for somewhere outside the server world the various devs do stuff like this. There's too much "it's cooler to do it this way" in linux, and not enough "what is going to happen to our existing users if I do it this way".
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 9:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think there are more issues here than just 'Linux'. Like Ibn al-Hazardous said, maybe Gentoo is not for you. If you stick to a distro that uses tried and tested methods you won't get these problems.

Development will always continue with an attempt to make things better, not necessarily to be 'cool', and Gentoo is a great platform for trying out the new developments. If you want to use Linux as a 'plug and play' desktop then use Ubuntu or equivalent, they are fantastic for that.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 22, 2008 12:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello people, I'm also having some problems with this.
My keyboard started behaving really od, and the sidebuttons of my mouse stopped working.
With that little tip:
Aysen wrote:
Did you choose "Evdev-managed keyboard" as your keyboard model in KDE?

I could get the keyboard to work again. But how do I get the sidebuttons of my mouse (used to do forward/backward in firefox) to work again?
In my xorg.conf I have:

Section "InputDevice"
Identifier "Logitech Maus"
Driver "evdev"
Option "Name" "Logitech USB Receiver"
EndSection

That worked before this evdev/hal/whatever updates without additional config. Is there a simple way to get the mouse buttons back?
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 22, 2008 3:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The problem is that stuff like this is often not properly documented, and dumped on users without prior notice. On the other hand, if you use unstable you have no right to bitch.

Personally, I hope this won't hit stable anytime soon. If it does, luckily I don't have hal in my USE flags.
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Xake
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 22, 2008 11:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sometimes I get somewhat tired of explaining the same shit over and over again...

Like for example: does you keyboard behave strange and for example opens the screenshot-applet when pressing the up-button?
Suprise suprise:
THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH HOTPLUG!!!!!
I have had this problem long before hotplug by just trying to use the evdev-driver in xorg.conf.
Why?
Because your goddamn DE (call it GNOME, call it KDE, call it *****) has a tendency to have per-user-settings when it comes to mouse and keyboard (and this for many - and good - reasons).
At least if you use GNOME you got a freaking warning about that your settings for X changed and if you wanted to use the settings from X or the ones in your user profile.
Ok, this dialog is somewhat vague and could be misinterpreted, but having to write over and over again to reset your settings for your keyboard/mouse in your DE when it misbehaves actually makes me wonder if some of you people can read.....

For those who can not search/read here is the obligatory non-think-one-line for GNOME (no, I do not use KDE, I do not know how you should do it, search this thread and you will see some people actually writes stuff and solutions, not just whine):
Code:
gconftool-2 --recursive-unset /desktop/gnome/peripherals
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Xake
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 22, 2008 11:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Eskarel wrote:
I've got it set to evedev-managed, so that didn't help, I'll check out the evdev doco when I get a chance. My frustration with this issue isn't so much about the actual issue itself, it's more that every time I think linux is almost ready for somewhere outside the server world the various devs do stuff like this. There's too much "it's cooler to do it this way" in linux, and not enough "what is going to happen to our existing users if I do it this way".


Tried Ubuntu lately? Or Fedora? Or any other thing meant to be something you can use without thinking of what lies behind the UI?
Then you will see that "linux is almost ready for somewhere outside the server world".
There you will have had dosens of people that have tried the configurations and programs before they ship them to you (unless you are using the beta (currently hardy hardon or what it was called)).
But when it comes to gentoo it seems to not be and never be ready for people who does not know how to fix stuff when they break. If you do not like that idea: switch distro to something more aligned with what you want.

And that is the really power of Linux/Unix/*BSD me thinks:
With Linux there are distros that tries to fix as much of the problems for you with the benefit that you do not have to care more then you need.
Then there is distros (like gentoo) where you have some presets and with the benefit that to get things working "right" (remember that there is always a different "right" for every user) you have to actually learn your system, but then you CAN get it right without having to battle the presets from the distro.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 23, 2008 1:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Xake, shh, calm down man. ;-)
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cerebro84
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 25, 2008 7:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello,
thanks to this post I *almost* resolved my issue with arrow keys (and altgr). I said almost because the up key keeps not working as it should, even if I set "evdev managed keyboard" in systemsettings. Any suggestion?
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simoo
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 26, 2008 8:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What does the keyboard section of your xorg.conf look like?
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 26, 2008 9:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

simoo wrote:
What does the keyboard section of your xorg.conf look like?


I don't have any
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 26, 2008 10:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Still no idea how I could get my mouse side buttons back? I don't find any settings in KDE, where I could possibly tell it what type of mouse to use or switch it to something like evdev-managed...
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 26, 2008 4:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cerebro84 wrote:
simoo wrote:
What does the keyboard section of your xorg.conf look like?


I don't have any


You may want to set one up then, there are two important bits to set up your mouse and keyboard the "ServerLayout" section and then the "InputDevice" sections, you have one of these for each input device. I have put mine at the botton for you to reference but you should also checkout the evdev manual link in an earlier post of mine. I have an Apple wireless keyboard with a GB layout.

Code:

Section "ServerLayout"
...
   InputDevice      "Apple Inc. Keyboard"      "SendCoreEvents"   
...
EndSection

...

Section "InputDevice"
    Identifier    "Apple Inc. Keyboard"
    Driver        "evdev"
    Option       "Name"        "Apple Inc. Keyboard"      # (cat /proc/bus/input/devices)
    Option       "Phys"          "00:0A:3A:51:50:7B"      # (cat /proc/bus/input/devices)
    Option        "XkbRules"   "xorg"
    Option       "XkbModel"   "macintosh"
    Option       "XkbLayout"  "gb"
    Option       "XkbVariant"   "mac"
EndSection

...

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 26, 2008 4:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bloodsurfer wrote:
Still no idea how I could get my mouse side buttons back? I don't find any settings in KDE, where I could possibly tell it what type of mouse to use or switch it to something like evdev-managed...


This link might help,

http://www.linux-gamers.net/modules/wiwimod/index.php?page=HOWTO+Mouse+Buttons
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herbert12345
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 11:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks to this thread I got the keyboard working. Well, except for those multimedia keys. The volume control worked out of the box but the others (play, stop, forward, ...) don't. I figure that I have to get the keycodes for them (I know, where I can find out how to do that) and then define what they do in the config file I used for HAL. I have no idea, what these lines should look like. So how do I get these keys working?
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 11:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

as for the VMWare problem, this ought to fix the keyboard mappings

in vmware config:

xkeymap.keycode.108 = 0x138 # Alt_R
xkeymap.keycode.106 = 0x135 # KP_Divide
xkeymap.keycode.104 = 0x11c # KP_Enter
xkeymap.keycode.111 = 0x148 # Up
xkeymap.keycode.116 = 0x150 # Down
xkeymap.keycode.113 = 0x14b # Left
xkeymap.keycode.114 = 0x14d # Right
xkeymap.keycode.105 = 0x11d # Control_R
xkeymap.keycode.118 = 0x152 # Insert
xkeymap.keycode.119 = 0x153 # Delete
xkeymap.keycode.110 = 0x147 # Home
xkeymap.keycode.115 = 0x14f # End
xkeymap.keycode.112 = 0x149 # Prior
xkeymap.keycode.117 = 0x151 # Next
xkeymap.keycode.78 = 0x46 # Scroll_Lock
xkeymap.keycode.127 = 0x100 # Pause
xkeymap.keycode.133 = 0x15b # Meta_L
xkeymap.keycode.134 = 0x15c # Meta_R
xkeymap.keycode.135 = 0x15d # Menu

(taken from https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=209329 )
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 12:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

simoo wrote:
Bloodsurfer wrote:
Still no idea how I could get my mouse side buttons back? I don't find any settings in KDE, where I could possibly tell it what type of mouse to use or switch it to something like evdev-managed...


This link might help,

http://www.linux-gamers.net/modules/wiwimod/index.php?page=HOWTO+Mouse+Buttons

Thanks for the suggestion, but that was the solution before those updates ;) It doesn't work that way anymore, sadly. :(
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 11:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

emerald: I too had taken those mappings from the Bug report and since then my delete key and windows key are working again.

Thanks for everyones help with this... the latest gnome upgrade forced me to unmask hal-0.5.10 so I'm glad to have my keys working again in vmware.
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