Should the Gentoo secret lists be world-readable?

[nerdbert]

[BradB]

[cdunham]

[ThreeFarthingStone]

I remember when in another thread I actually defended SCO's ability to withold information (not disclose how they think IBM stole their code). I shouldn't give the Enemy (well, they do want to make my computer illegal) that privelege and not Gentoo.

GNU GPL, free software, open source, etc., do not mean that the development of the software is open. Thus there can be closed development, which involves a closed form of communication (such as gentoo-core or gentoo-biz mailing lists). Closed communication is needed to protect, defend a project so that the owners can choose which direction they want to go.

Imagine if someone suggested on gentoo-core, "Let us stop supporting Linux, install portage on SCO UnixWare, and support SCO only." The core people do not have to do this. (Of course this example is much more drastic then what happens in reality. Think of, say, a proposal to require SQL for portage.) Of course, if the developers want to open gentoo-core or release archives late, they can do so.
_________________
There are two types of people: those who are in the world, and those who aren't.

[BradB]

The problem with having non-readable lists is that you create a barrier to entry. People can't just lurk for a while, and then start contributing. They need to get the attention of the developers by doing something special (something that may already be worked on in the core group), then get invited to the group, then learn about how things work.
Look at the Xfree core group & how that boiled over.
Again, although you don't have to be open, when using GPL code, openness is the spirit of GPL.

Brad
_________________
Microsoft - bringing the pain right into your home since 1982

[klieber]

Folks --

Thanks for the healthy discussion. I appreciate those who are on the "outside" and want to know what's on the "inside". There will always be a need for private communications. If we make -core public, private communications will still occur, either via email or in IRC channels.

There are a number of reasons for this, most of which have been discussed before, but I'll cover a couple key ones here:

• The need to be able to propose outlandish ideas without fear of setting off a riot. The developers need to have the ability to suggest new, crazy, wild, farfetched ideas without setting off a riot in the forums, the -user list and IRC. If we set off riots all the time, we have to spend out time calming users down, abating their fears and generally spending all sorts of time on things other than developing Gentoo
  
• Developers are people, too. And we need a place to vent amongst our peers. Believe it or not, there are times when developers need to rant about a particular user or particular situation. This is just part of being human. -core provides that outlet, allows devs to release some steam and get feedback from their peers without unduly embarrassing or causing friction from/to our user community.
  

--kurt
_________________
The problem with political jokes is that they get elected

[nadamsieee]

[klieber]

[BradB]

Perhaps make the -core list possible to sign up to, but not an automated process. Make it sufficiently hard that a passerby who has nothing to offer won't spam the list, but easy enough that a genuinely interested party can at least read it.
As for riots, well that's a good point - but maybe a riot or two is good. What happens to good ideas that die in the -core list? Nothing - they die. But maybe a good idea that causes a riot in the forums would get looked at a little harder, or maybe picked up by the community. Riots would eventually calm themselves down, anything especially bad could be posted to the GWN or frontpage. No riot could be worse than the April Fools RPM joke, and that was like 1 thread (I don't know the IRC reaction).

I realise that the -core membership will still email/private message one another, big deal that happens everywhere - people make these private mailings precisely because they don't want to post to a list.
I don't like being on the "outside" and not being able to see what is going on "inside".

Brad

Edit - just read klieber's post.

Are you saying that nothing important gets discussed in -core? Just look at the riot that even having a secret list has caused. The amount of ill feeling that this must be causing is surely more than anything that could be actually discussed in that list.
_________________
Microsoft - bringing the pain right into your home since 1982

[idl]

[sanity]

Users should hear about these things -- ESPECIALLY the ones concerning security. Users should be able to view the list, but not write to it, and it should be frowned upon to use Bugzilla or start a huge discussion about little things happening on the list.

Yes, you should be able to have a small discussion on a small list with a few ideas, but that doesn't mean that I shouldn't be able to see what happens. Think of it like a big murder trial -- the public should be allowed to see what goes on inside (via televising of the event), but they should really have minimal input on what happens inside. They can form a mob, but that's it -- justice will only be served by the judge and the jury.

The only other argument I've heard besides "I don't want my inbox to overflow" is "some things should be kept secret." In that case, why do I use Linux? Because IBM kept their Linux port to their mainframes secret, the Linux community wasted at least a year (I think) on Bigfoot. More importantly, the main criticism Windows security freaks have against Linux is that it is open, so it's easy to find security holes. Our response has always been that openness assures that so many people can look at them that there are very few security holes left, if any at all.

If this isn't enough, go read the Cathedral and the Bazaar.

The only idea I see so far that I like (besides a mostly read-only list) is having some things time-sealed for, say, 30 days. But this, too, has a problem. Suppose you discovered a serious security hole specific to Gentoo, and hacked on it for 30 days in your own little cathedral for fear of letting the public know. Meanwhile, John Q. Cracker has found it also and is killing systems left and right. And maybe I just noticed your problem awhile ago, thought it was my fault, and fixed it in 2 seconds. (Ok, not me, someone much more skilled.)

The developers should be free of random users wandering in to their development sessions, asking n00b questions, killing ideas that haven't even been thought out yet. But they should also let the public see what they're doing. I'd hate to find out, for example, that you were planning to drop all openGL from Gentoo (not likely, but I can't think of a better example) in a week, and not tell us about it until then, so if I decided I didn't like it, or maybe I could maintain GL all by myself. Either way, most users probably won't jump in on every little detail (or they'll get blacklisted from people's personal email accounts), but we're talking about taking the ability from us because it might be better for us -- or actually, because it might be better for the Gentoo developers.

Finally, if Gentoo continues to be quality, free software, I don't care much what happens on -core, and if -core becomes private, I will continue to use Gentoo anyway. Hopefully, people who need to be on -core will, regardless of whether it's private or not. This is my "whatever works" policy. Quakeforge and CrystalSpace are good, even xbill is good, but the best games are proprietary. They are still the best games, though, and I still buy them.
_________________
Every time you read a signature, God kills a kitten.

[nadamsieee]

[ebrostig]

[scott_ell]

[klieber]

[BradB]

[scott_ell]

[nadamsieee]

[klieber]

[nadamsieee]

[idl]

[Cid Highwind]

I would respectfully like to know exactly which "UPSTREAM" projects are demanding this secrecy. A project that keeps news from its user community obviously doesn't value the community's input. Any project that does not value the input of the community obviously doesn't need my (or any other mere user's) help with bug reports, patches, suggestions, translations, etc.

[nadamsieee]

[idl]

[klieber]