Gentoo fork???!

seemant · Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2003 2:30 pm Post subject: -core and why it exists

Hi All,

Just to set the record straight. the -core mailing list is really for developers only and is used for the strictly developer related issues. Things like: package-X releases a new security fix release in x days -- can devs please test this before then. And so on. These issues are kept private because UPSTREAM wishes them to be private. If we go and spill beans that they're not ready to have spilled, who's on the wrong? And is it worth it to do that just so that people the world over feel that -core is not a cabal?

EVERY development related thread (pertaining to developer issues, management issues, direction issues, status issues, projects, ideas, etc etc) happens on the -dev list. EVERY gentoo developer is on that list (actually, probably a good idea to put in our new dev policy doc -- that was note to self). And that list is world rw.

The problem is that people see a list that's closed, and assume the worst. Let history and track record speak for itself. Has Gentoo ever misled you? Have you had developers or the management of gentoo lie to you about things? If not, give us that benefit -- allow for US to have a chance to have SOME sort of private discussion.

paranode · l33t Joined: 06 Mar 2003 Posts: 679 Location: Texas

"Bobby, Gentoo is the devil!"

I think Gentoo is fine the way it is. I think this hotheaded Zynot guy will go fork his project and nobody will use it. As long as things work as well as they do now or better, I'll be sticking right here with Gentoo. It appears to me from what I've read that this person is angry because he isn't getting paid for his work. Well that's the game with open source. I know Daniel Robbins makes it out like he doesn't want to stoop to this guy's level, but perhaps all of us here who love Gentoo and support it in the community deserve some answers as to what's really going on. If we don't hear two sides of the story then it's hard to make a judgement. I can understand Gentoo Technologies being for-profit because of things like Gentoo Games and such, and I hear people saying Gentoo Linux is going non-profit, but when is this going to happen and what will be different?
_________________
Meh.

Cerement · Guru Joined: 14 Jun 2003 Posts: 404

avenj · Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2003 4:14 pm Post subject:

avenj · Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2003 4:15 pm Post subject: Re: About profit/non-profit

avenj · Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2003 4:20 pm Post subject:

Ricky · Guru Joined: 30 May 2003 Posts: 341

With a thread as meaty as this, far be it from me not to weigh in. ;-)

I've only been a Gentoo user for a few months, but I've been a Linux user for a while now. I use Gentoo cuz I like it. It's fast, the package management system r0xx0rz, etc. etc. People will continue to use Gentoo cuz they like it. They'll use [Insert name for Zynot's distro here] if they like it. That's the way things work around here. As far as all this hooplah is concerned, I agree that just about anyone who says anything about what caused this split is probably biased and should be taken with a heapin' helpin' of salt. Zwelch is sayin' "I invested all this, I'm l337, and now you're scr3wxx0r1ing me!!

" and Drobbins is sayin' "No I didn't. U r l4m3. I could prove it if I wanted to, but instead I'll make vague references to counter-arguments that I've got stashed away for a rainy day.

" They're both slanted towards their own take on things, that's just the way people are.

As for the fork itself, it seems to me that the purpose of this fork is to focus on the-distro-formerly-psuedo-known-as-Gentoo's use in embedded devices. As such, I don't think it'll be that much "competition" for Gentoo's more desktop-oriented aspirations.

Finally, since I really should get back to work, one last comment: I don't see why everybody's wettin' their pants over Zynot's plans to at some point switch to a C++ based portage system when this guy (Geert Bevin) seems to have been working on this months ago, and is still planning on finishing it up as a " as plug-in replacement for Gentoo's Portage or create a forked distribution." (Although, potentially another fork.)

As far as all the politcal/for-profit/not-profit/illuminati/gestapo/area 51 stuff, well, I've just recently discovered the treasure trove that is the Gentoo forums, et. al. I really don't know much about all that.

There's plenty of fish in the sea. Sometimes fishies just fight. ;-)

iplayfast · Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2003 4:25 pm Post subject:

[quote="bcavalieri"]

avenj · Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2003 4:26 pm Post subject:

Lovechild · Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2003 4:34 pm Post subject:

Bevin is actually doing the portage inspired package management system for the fork. I think he already has the better part of it implemented using gcj.

I would suggest that you go read his entry in the wiki, it's actually a very nicely written document.

There are already a couple of registered developers and the improvement ideas are flying around. Everything goes basically, something Gentoo could allow - afterall it has been out for a while. I see this as evolution, sometimes it works out better and everyone is happy, sometimes it dies thus showing that the current solution was better.

As for the mudslinging I won't really comment...

avenj · Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2003 4:36 pm Post subject:

Mallrats · Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2003 4:38 pm Post subject:

I'll throw in my two cents and say I have no opinion on the matter :-)

_________________
BitWise Chat

ebrostig · Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2003 5:18 pm Post subject:

Ok, it's June 26th, it's summer and cucumber time!

*Yawwwwnnnn*
Good-luck-whoever-you-are-as-I-have-never-heard-or-talked-to-you -Zach...

Gentoo core mailinglist... Great... I can't handle more mailing lists, nor do i have any interest in it. Keep it private, you guys (developers) need a private method of communication, that's normal.

I use Gentoo first and foremost because it is a superb distro based on a superb idea. If Zynot (?) becomes a similar good commercial distro for embedded devices, fine... I don't use any embedded Linux based devices yet, so I really don't care.

We still have 2 more months left of the summer... OMG... Wonder what other crap is going to surface and hit the front page of Cumcumber News?

It's going to be a hot and long summmer.... :twisted:

Erik
_________________
'Yes, Firefox is indeed greater than women. Can women block pops up for you? No. Can Firefox show you naked women? Yes.'

AlterEgo · Veteran Joined: 25 Apr 2002 Posts: 1619

mmealman · Guru Joined: 02 Nov 2002 Posts: 348 Location: Florida

Woah, Gentoo has some developers that are arrogant? Say it ain't so!

Guess I'll go back to Debian, oh wait, they have them to.

Maybe I should get out of this whole Linux thing and work on Macs over at Apple. I hear Steve Jobs is a pretty humble guy....

"A truly great computer programmer is lazy, impatient and full of hubris". - Larry Wall

Ricky · Guru Joined: 30 May 2003 Posts: 341

lurid · Guru Joined: 12 Mar 2003 Posts: 595 Location: Florida

There is a good post about this on Slashdot. I don't know who wrote it and if they're on the forums but, here it is.

avenj · Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2003 6:59 pm Post subject:

I don't think the problem you're describing exists.

I can think of a couple arrogant developers offhand. I can think of numerous very good, humble developers offhand. The fact that some devs are arrogant has nothing to do with Gentoo management.

I would appreciate it if you could point out specific instances where you've perceived arrogance (feel free to e-mail me if you're not comfortable doing it here) so I can deal with that.

shm · Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2003 7:01 pm Post subject:

Any good distros will have growing pains-- gentoo included.

Whether it'll be gentoo or zynot that will stick around to the end, or whether both will-- they community will decide that. I'll try zynot if people tell me if it's good

When Geert Bevin left gentoo, he said:

mmealman · Guru Joined: 02 Nov 2002 Posts: 348 Location: Florida

avenj · Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2003 7:17 pm Post subject:

Our history of developer recruitment should show that we are always looking for people with great ideas and - this is the important part - great _implementation_ of ideas.

(If you want, I can provide more detail here.)

lurid · Guru Joined: 12 Mar 2003 Posts: 595 Location: Florida

avenj: Even though you and I haven't spoken personally, I've seen you making a lot of posts on the boards (comparatively speaking) and a lot of them are really helpful. I appreciate the effort you make here. From my first post on this board I was told, and many times thereafter, that devs don't come on the boards much, if at all. But I've seen you around and I can say that you are not the example I'm pointing to. I do appreciate your contribution, and I do appreciate your attempt in mediating this thread of naysayers like myself.

And now everyone wants proof. Hehe, thats a resonable request I suppose, but I don't feel inclined to search the board for a few hours to turn up some examples. I've given an example once already a few posts back dealing with some people trying to get development ebuilds out for Gnome for some testing and bug hunting. And fosers subsequent trashing of the people working on it and declaring that hes never comming back to the boards. *shrug* Other than that, I really am not going to point fingers here..

There are many many many instances of people on this board writing things, scripts, ebuilds, etc that have helped out tons of people. Suggestions made to do things better.. I can't name it all, but the forums are an extensive list of tips and howtos. Things the devs would have to write documents for, fix, or otherwise put effort into. When there are problems with things, its the Gentoo community that comes together to fix them, to help users and to get systems up and running.

Again, to be clear, I am not trashing Gentoo. I love this distro and I love the forums and the people I'm in contact with daily. I just think the maintainers need to get rid of the chip on their shoulder and realise that Gentoo is not just code, its community. THAT is what made Gentoo what it is.

bcavalieri · n00b Joined: 27 Sep 2002 Posts: 72 Location: Kansas City

CrankyPenguin · Apprentice Joined: 19 Jun 2003 Posts: 283

I've read Zachary Welch's comments on why he is forking Gentoo, Daniel Robbins's response, the proposed hierarchy change, and Geert Bevin's comments on why he left Gentoo. I also read this post on gmane. I have some questions that I want to toss out primarily to the developers but I would be interested in hearing anyone else's comments on them.

Let me state in advance that I am making no accusations nor taking any sides. Nor do I hold out some lofty hopes that the developers have infinite time on their hands to make any and all feature requests (not that I wouldn't mind

. My goal is to simply get a handle on what is going on.

My questions are:

Again let me state that I like Gentoo and I have no inherent bias in this matter. I am just trying to fogure out what is and is not the case.

On a different note, thanks to the developers for building such a great distro in the first place!

-CP
_________________
Linux, the OS for the obsessive-compulsive speed freak in all of us.

IWBCMAN · Guru Joined: 25 Jun 2002 Posts: 474

heres my two cents:

to rewriting portage:

if re-writing portage in c++ means that the ebuilds will no longer have there current simple syntax and functionality- I have no interest in such a change-even if it would be "faster". I do not program in c++, and am not willing to learn it in order to maintain my portage tree. I am sure there are lots of benefits to c++ but it is the simplicity of the ebuilds that keeps me with gentoo....it gives me the feeling that I can contribute, and that I can have some level of control over my own system.

to Zynot:

Zach wants to do his own thing for emedded gentoo-ish linux. great. more power to him. his stuff has no impact on gentoo, as it is, and is of no interest to anyone not pursuing embedded stuff-he has no plans to make a generic linux distro-accordig to his own documents on his website-so this stuff is of no import for your average gentoo user/developer(this includes you lovechild-I would hate to loose you-but I have no fear-because what zach wants to do has nothing to do with gentoo as a great generic met-distro of linux)

as pertains to the devs:

Yes in my experience some of them are pretty arrogant- but most of the time, most of them have been very helpful and have done a great job. As a rule of thumb those who are most gifted at spending 14 hours a day in front of a computer are not blessed with equal amounts of social grace....social grace means spending an equal time or more with other people present in your environment and dealing with them independently of whatever skills or knowledge you deem to be most important due to your occupation of choice.

as to Daniel Robbins:

I have never met the man, I do not know him personally. He has created the greatest linux distro this world has ever seen. Please keep up the great work.

as to non-profit vs. business interests:

zach and that other guy, bevin, both left gentoo primarily due to their financial interests in gentoo. Of course they had technical and or personal issues with gentoo and Daniel Robbins personally. But those issues only become trully relevant when you are looking at gentoo as a way to bring home the bacon. I have little or no sympathy for these folks. If and when Daniel Robbins becomes a really wealthy man due to gentoo then perhaps this jealousy and envy stuff, which is the motor behind the resentment, may become more appropriate, albeit it would still be petty. Gentoo, like any other computer project has financial potential- but that is not why it exists and not its reason for being. I too was unaware that gentoo was a for-profit. thas ok with me-because I refuse to absolutely religious about such issues-I have a certain amount of ingrained pragmatism which makes me a bad ideologue. Great if it become non-profit- great if the core developers find a way to make enough money to continue their efforts. Gentoo may be currently for-profit but it resembles in no way shape or form your typical for-profit organization, its openness, friendliness, and dynamism are traits one does not usually find in the commercial world. I have no mistrust towards Gentoo, nor its developers, even if it is for-profit. Of course I do not agree with all things done by gentoo-like embracing and endorsing the US military during the war at a computer expo because of the new port of their propaganda software. but that is not the end of the world for me- the quality of the work that the gentoo devs and Drobbins personally has contributed to gentoo makes it the *only* OS I actually want to use.....