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didymos
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2007 2:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Which, I imagine, is why you mostly just quietly merge duplicates instead of berating people for laziness and general idiocy.
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didymos
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2007 3:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually, how would one go about asking someone who's in a position to know if they would just post an explanation in announcements and/or on the Gentoo home page. It's not like it needs to be a highly detailed report, just a paragraph covering: "It's down. This is basically what happened. Sorry, we'll be done when we're done." Did anyone try sending something to infra yet?
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desultory
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2007 4:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I inquired to that effect via IRC and was informed that for the time being there is to be no official statement as to why the services were taken offline or how long they will be down. Unofficially, the services will be restored as they can be.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2007 9:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The site is also now down, for about some days, now
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didymos
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2007 10:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Uh, yeah, we know that. That's what the thread is about. What people (e.g, me) want to know is why it's down.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2007 10:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

--

Last edited by 96140 on Fri Sep 13, 2013 9:14 am; edited 1 time in total
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didymos
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2007 10:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Simple curiosity. Because I use the site. Just because. Why does anyone want to know anything? I'm not supposed to be interested unless I'm one of the people actually working on it? In that case, I should stop being interested in just about everything as I'm not directly involved in the majority of activity going on in the world. Besides, it's a pretty big part of Gentoo's public face, so it's abrupt departure for no apparent reason just comes off a bit odd.
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Roman_Gruber
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2007 12:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like the site. Thx maintainers of the site.

I have disovered: eix-sync : This command gives you a list of new packages / updates / demerges. This is also great.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2007 1:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nightmorph wrote:
Why does it matter? These kinds of things aren't something that can be fixed by anyone but developers anyway. It's coming back; it's not gone forever.

Agreed. It matters because a visible response to such events--substantive or not--is a huge part of projecting an image of professionalism and competency, even for an all-volunteer organization. Perhaps especially for an all-volunteer organization.

For example, Tigris.org (the Subversion people) at present have a message on their site that reads, in part:
tigris.org wrote:
This site will be unavailable for 5 minutes on Friday, August 17th at 10:00 am IST (Thursday, August 16, 9:30 pm PDT).

That appears at the top of almost every page on the site, and it's for a scheduled, five minute outage that was still two weeks away when I first saw the notice. Five minutes! They could have said nothing and probably not received more than fifty complaints before service was restored.

In comparison, yes, having a highly visible and useful website go offline for days, without explanation, should be expected to draw some criticism. In my case, it's meant to be constructive: An announcement that gentoo.org was aware of the problem and working to fix it (we're sorry for the inconvenience, will post more info as it becomes available, blah blah blah) should have been posted straight away--and still should be, as the site is still down.

In short, if there's someone available to work the problem, there's someone available to post a notice. It's just basic professionalism and courtesy.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2007 1:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think anyone has mentioned the following message, sent to the gentoo users mailing list:
http://article.gmane.org/gmane.linux.gentoo.user/186687
Quote:
From: Christian Heim <phreak <at> gentoo.org>
Subject: Re: packages.gentoo.org down?
Newsgroups: gmane.linux.gentoo.user
Date: 2007-08-07 14:42:45 GMT (2 days, 22 hours and 39 minutes ago)

On Tuesday 07 August 2007 15:12:51 Alexander Skwar wrote:
> Hi!
>
> Is it just me, or is http://packages.gentoo.org/ not available?
>
> Alexander Skwar

It's being closed until further notice.

Regards,

Christian

--
Christian Heim <phreak at gentoo.org>
GPG key ID: 9A9F68E6
Fingerprint: AEC4 87B8 32B8 4922 B3A9 DF79 CAE3 556F 9A9F 68E6
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2007 1:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd guess that some very destructive security flaw was discovered, destructive enough to keep infra from telling us what's happened. It'll be back when they get a fix for it.
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didymos
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2007 2:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I know the intent is helpful, but please stop saying it'll be back. That's sort of self-evident. I at least am not seeking reassurance on that count. I'm not even particularly concerned about the time it'll take. And the security flaw thing? Rationalization. Sorry, but it is. If there's some security issue, then why not just say so? It's not like they have to tell anyone how to exploit it. As if anyone could, what with the site being completely inaccessible. Besides which, wasn't security through obscurity thoroughly discredited a couple decades ago, at least?
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pilla
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2007 2:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

didymos wrote:
I know the intent is helpful, but please stop saying it'll be back. That's sort of self-evident. I at least am not seeking reassurance on that count. I'm not even particularly concerned about the time it'll take. And the security flaw thing? Rationalization. Sorry, but it is. If there's some security issue, then why not just say so? It's not like they have to tell anyone how to exploit it. As if anyone could, what with the site being completely inaccessible. Besides which, wasn't security through obscurity thoroughly discredited a couple decades ago, at least?


Other sites that choose not to get down (or that couldn't, or that weren't warned about it) are in danger if there's something that could be done with information about this possible security issue. Besides, that isn't security through obscurity at all. It would be security through obscurity if the sites were kept up and running while nobody talked about the issue. But the sites are down.

I think this practice is well accepted and used in many cases. If you know more than the specialists about security, you should go ahead and publish your points of view in their forums. Complaining about packages.gentoo.org being down without a public statement of the problems will not change anything.
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didymos
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2007 3:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pilla wrote:
I think this practice is well accepted and used in many cases.


Again, fine, don't say what the problem is specifically. I have to wonder, though, how these hypothetical sites are supposed to become aware of this hypothetical vulnerability if no one publicizes it, as is done all the time by "security specialists". From what I've seen, the typical scenario is that an exploit is discovered, then widely publicized on public channels. I don't know everything though, and am willing to concede that. Maybe you could return the courtesy by pointing out someplace where I might find some information on this well-accepted practice?

And for the nth time, I'm not complaining about it being down. I understand these things happen. I have yet to actually complain that the site is down. I have no plans to complain that the site is down. If you look at my original post and response to same, you'll actually see that I thought maybe the problem was on my end of things, and just wanted to know if the site was indeed down, because I couldn't find any information about it. And that's really all I have done: ask for information. What is unreasonable about that?

What is annoying and what I will complain about is the patronizing tone from those with official titles. For example, this:

Quote:
If you know more than the specialists about security, you should go ahead and publish your points of view in their forums.


Nice. And how exactly did you arrive at the determination that I'm suffering under the delusion that I know more about security than computer security experts (who very well may not agree with what you have to say either)? By the way, who are these specialists to which you refer?
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2007 3:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

can we please stop this discussion as it'll lead to nowhere?
Even we as moderators/admins for f.g.o (i can only definately speak about myself) do _not_ know more than 'p.g.o-site is down, -infra is working on the issue'.
The decision to publically announce this fact or not is up to others.

One can take this status as annoying or as-is - thats up to the individual.
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didymos
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2007 4:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fine with me. I've become convinced of the futility, as-is and annoying as it is.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2007 10:11 pm    Post subject: Online package database site Reply with quote

Is it me or is it down?

:( :(
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2007 10:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No, I think you are correct! No announcements though that I can see!
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2007 10:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ok

I looked and i cant find anything about it either
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2007 11:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sdtester wrote:
Dear desultory,

Sorry about the duplicate - It is just that the gentoo forums are very difficult to search.

I searched for "packages", "packages.gentoo.org" and nothing came up.

????? :? ??????


lol sdtester

link

Mod Edit: fixed link to prevent horizontal scrolling - tomk
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2007 11:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Security wise I think it is definitely wiser just to fix the problem.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2007 11:49 pm    Post subject: packages.gentoo.org not working Reply with quote

I actually first noticed this a few days ago.

I checked again today to see if it was just a short-term outage, but it still doesn't work.

I have not been able to find any information about it either.
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desultory
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2007 2:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Merged four of the above six posts, the exceptions being those by Dirk.R.Gently and made the topic sticky.
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2007 8:31 am    Post subject: Online packages database vaporized ? Reply with quote

So, what ever happened to http://packages.gentoo.org ?

Taken down ? Deliberately ? By accident ? By blackhats ?

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2007 8:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

merged above post here.
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