Gentoo Forums
Gentoo Forums
Gentoo Forums
Quick Search: in
Will you ever use the Gentoo Installer?
View unanswered posts
View posts from last 24 hours

Goto page 1, 2, 3, 4  Next  
Reply to topic    Gentoo Forums Forum Index Gentoo Chat
View previous topic :: View next topic  

Will you ever use any type of installer?
No
78%
 78%  [ 190 ]
Yes
21%
 21%  [ 51 ]
Total Votes : 241

Author Message
richard.scott
Veteran
Veteran


Joined: 19 May 2003
Posts: 1497
Location: Oxfordshire, UK

PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2007 6:23 am    Post subject: Will you ever use the Gentoo Installer? Reply with quote

Hi,

I've been using Gentoo now for over 4 years and I have to say I love it.

Yes it has its little quirks just like any other OS does, but it still rocks!

I've been reading this thread, and feel that the resources of the developers would be better spent on the basics of Gentoo rather than any type of Installer.

Don't get me wrong, the installer is a nice idea, but not at the expense of doing things by hand!

It seems that Gentoo are taking away our choice of how we install Gentoo and forcing us to use an installer.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
heavenscent
n00b
n00b


Joined: 13 Apr 2007
Posts: 20

PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2007 7:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I first installed gentoo 1.2 in early 2002 via command line which hooked me on Linux and in particular Gentoo. I had never known such a thing. I was actually completely in control of what went on my computer. I agree with the author of this poll in that the command line install made gentoo unique. It actually taught me things where as looking dumbly at a largely automatic pretty gui teaches nothing. Keep Gentoo unique! It is not a mainstream distro and shouldn't be. Of course we should have the choice of install methods but I believe the focus should remain on the command line.

Perhaps we could ask for drobbins' opinion. I for one would love to hear his thoughts on the matter. Why he defected would also be good reading. Hey Daniel, if you're reading this how about your thoughts?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
mark_alec
Bodhisattva
Bodhisattva


Joined: 11 Sep 2004
Posts: 6066
Location: Melbourne, Australia

PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2007 7:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

heavenscent wrote:
Perhaps we could ask for drobbins' opinion. I for one would love to hear his thoughts on the matter. Why he defected would also be good reading. Hey Daniel, if you're reading this how about your thoughts?
http://www.funtoo.org/drobbins/blog/2007/05/gentoo-linux-20070-review-first.html :)
_________________
www.gentoo.org.au || #gentoo-au


Last edited by mark_alec on Mon May 14, 2007 7:39 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
heavenscent
n00b
n00b


Joined: 13 Apr 2007
Posts: 20

PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2007 7:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow, the forums shine!. Thanks for the link Mark!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
dahranis
Apprentice
Apprentice


Joined: 20 Jan 2006
Posts: 166

PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2007 8:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
It looks like there are no stages or sources included on the 600MB CD, but the Evolution mail client and all of the GNOME runtime was included. This is probably not the ideal way to maximize the utility of a 600MB install CD.


Pain in the frickin arse to do a networkless install

<waits for link to oh so obvious solution>
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
richard.scott
Veteran
Veteran


Joined: 19 May 2003
Posts: 1497
Location: Oxfordshire, UK

PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2007 8:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dahranis wrote:
Pain in the frickin arse to do a networkless install

<waits for link to oh so obvious solution>


Yes, but in reality, how often do you do a totally networkless install? I tried it once, but don't see the point anymore as anywhere I want to install gentoo has some form of fast connection like broadband. We already know that whatever we have on the CD will be out of date by the time we get to use it so by default we have to get online at some point to update it all! :?

Perhaps this should be another Poll? i.e

Do you ever do a networkless install? Yes/No? :lol:
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
dahranis
Apprentice
Apprentice


Joined: 20 Jan 2006
Posts: 166

PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2007 8:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes!!!!!!
Like when i only have a wireless internet connection and i can't get the live cd to connect to the net?
Or like when i go to my fathers house and simply haven't got an internet connection but would still like to use the time gen-efficiently??
FAR to many times now i've had to install ubuntu just so i can get an internet connection to install the damned thing.
There is demmand for it!
Me!
over here!
Looky!!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
richard.scott
Veteran
Veteran


Joined: 19 May 2003
Posts: 1497
Location: Oxfordshire, UK

PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2007 8:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dahranis wrote:
Yes!!!!!!
Like when i only have a wireless internet connection and i can't get the live cd to connect to the net?
Or like when i go to my fathers house and simply haven't got an internet connection but would still like to use the time gen-efficiently??
FAR to many times now i've had to install ubuntu just so i can get an internet connection to install the damned thing.
There is demmand for it!
Me!
over here!
Looky!!


I can't help your father get broadband :wink: ....

but from what I understood the LiveCD has tools for connecting to a wireless network?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
dahranis
Apprentice
Apprentice


Joined: 20 Jan 2006
Posts: 166

PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2007 8:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Have to use a live cd that supports jmicron or something or other.
I just don't understand WHY i shouldn't be allowed to have a universal cd, it just defies my understanding!
The Live cd is all very nice, very shiny etc but still. Stage3, portage snapshot, distfiles. Please.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
richard.scott
Veteran
Veteran


Joined: 19 May 2003
Posts: 1497
Location: Oxfordshire, UK

PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2007 8:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dahranis wrote:
Have to use a live cd that supports jmicron or something or other.
I just don't understand WHY i shouldn't be allowed to have a universal cd, it just defies my understanding!
The Live cd is all very nice, very shiny etc but still. Stage3, portage snapshot, distfiles. Please.


Have you looked at the GNAP project? It's an excellent wrapper for Catalyst so you can make your own bootable CD's with whatever files you want on there too! You can also customise the kernel to include support for anything non-gentoo-standard!

This is why I think gentoo rocks as there are so many cool tools! 8)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
neysx
Retired Dev
Retired Dev


Joined: 27 Jan 2003
Posts: 795

PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2007 9:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

See this 2006.1 review: "the graphical installation utility is still not production-ready"
Two more 2007.0 reviews: http://www.thepcspy.com/articles/linux/review_gentoo_20070 & http://techgage.com/article/gentoo_20070/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
anello
Guru
Guru


Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 557
Location: EU -> DE -> Stuttgart

PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2007 9:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think gentoo is about "tweaking it to your needs" and not about saving time installing a "default" setup.
_________________
Antonino Catinello | http://catinello.eu
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
BrummieJim
l33t
l33t


Joined: 22 Jul 2005
Posts: 640

PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2007 9:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I worry that people new to gentoo who wouldn't have previously made it through the install will be stuck with a distro which they can't really handle. Apart from that though for people willing to get involved the forums and wiki's make just about anything possible, if you've the time and motivation, which is really the crunch. I think that there's a role for a serious linux i.e. not ubuntu (like using linux wearing a straitjacket) and anything which brings more users is good, as long as it's not to the detriment of choice.

Question about dev time is valid though, where should that time be spent improving what sounds like a buggy installer or improving the distro itself.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
richard.scott
Veteran
Veteran


Joined: 19 May 2003
Posts: 1497
Location: Oxfordshire, UK

PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2007 9:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BrummieJim wrote:
I worry that people new to gentoo who wouldn't have previously made it through the install will be stuck with a distro which they can't really handle.


I understand what your saying, and previously I used RedHat so had little 'hands on' experience with how linux really works.
When I first installed Gentoo I read the 'Gentoo Handbook' and it covered everything I needed to know to get up and running, even for a noobie! :wink:

And when I got stuck, I came here to the Forums and had some excellent help and advice from other Gentoo users.

Seriously tho, if a user can't read the Gentoo Handbook to install the distro then perhaps Linux isn't their only worry! 8O
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Matteo Azzali
Retired Dev
Retired Dev


Joined: 23 Sep 2004
Posts: 1133

PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2007 10:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why not, if it's no more in alpha state I'll use for sure on next install, I have no time to waste if
it's not strictly necessary, and gentoo will still be the most customized distro even if installed
from the graphical installer instead than "all-by-hands".
_________________
Every day a new distro comes to birth. Every day a distro "eats" another.
If you're born distro, no matter what, start to run.
---- http://www.linuxprinting.org/ ---- http://tuxmobil.org/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Matteo Azzali
Retired Dev
Retired Dev


Joined: 23 Sep 2004
Posts: 1133

PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2007 10:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

anello wrote:
I think gentoo is about "tweaking it to your needs" and not about saving time installing a "default" setup.

Right, but in reality the core components are better untweaked for most installations (as unsafe gcc flags causes lots of
issues and not so much performance gains, for example), and most of the other components can be tweaked after
the installation, just when it's needed. It is called "default" setup cause it will fit most of the users....
_________________
Every day a new distro comes to birth. Every day a distro "eats" another.
If you're born distro, no matter what, start to run.
---- http://www.linuxprinting.org/ ---- http://tuxmobil.org/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
pdr
l33t
l33t


Joined: 20 Mar 2004
Posts: 600

PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2007 10:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rather than an installer, I'd really like a package that helps with backup/restore. I have very specific needs for my desktop and have spent a lot of time scripting and setting up fluxbox to fulfill it. When I swapped desktop hardware to move to raid-1, new motherboard/proc, etc I copied my world file, my /usr/local/bin scripts, various other things from /etc, and kept the old hard drive connected (because I DID end up forgetting to copy some stuff). Ended up with a whole bunch of scripts that did each step of the install (eg: a netsetup script that used data from my current config to set up networking) with the final script emerging all the stuff that used to be in my world file.

What would be grand is if the people that are a LOT more familiar with the system layout - etc/conf.d, etc-update/dispatch-conf, etc - could come up with a package to do this; not only would it help with a migration like I had, but also would seriously help out sysadmins with server farms like we have at work..
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
richard.scott
Veteran
Veteran


Joined: 19 May 2003
Posts: 1497
Location: Oxfordshire, UK

PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2007 10:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Matteo Azzali wrote:
Why not, if it's no more in alpha state I'll use for sure on next install, I have no time to waste if
it's not strictly necessary, and gentoo will still be the most customized distro even if installed
from the graphical installer instead than "all-by-hands".


Hi Metteo Azzali,

I note by your status your a Gentoo Developer, so firstly many thanks for all your hard work :D

With your "insider knowledge" as a developer, are you saying in your quote that the current released installer is still Alpha quality code? If so, then surely that shouldn't have been put onto a release CD as it just makes Gentoo look bad :?

I think the point here is that we want to be able to choose between the two options and not be forced to do a Stage3 install or use any type of installer. I liked being able to start form stage1 tarball and work upwards, it just felt better and seemed to work better with less incompatible packages etc.

It may have taken ages to compile, but then that's my choice! I accept that a decent installer makes things quicker to install, but I'd go for flexibility over speed any day. For example, installing a Hardened system on Software RAID-1 is currently a nightmare with no stable stage1 tarballs!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
richard.scott
Veteran
Veteran


Joined: 19 May 2003
Posts: 1497
Location: Oxfordshire, UK

PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2007 10:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

pdr wrote:
Rather than an installer, I'd really like a package that helps with backup/restore.


Have you seen the Stage4 howto on the wiki?

http://gentoo-wiki.com/HOWTO_Custom_Stage4

It's a simple way of taring up your whole drive in a similar way a stage3 tarball is made.

PM me if you need more help :)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Matteo Azzali
Retired Dev
Retired Dev


Joined: 23 Sep 2004
Posts: 1133

PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2007 11:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

richard.scott wrote:
Matteo Azzali wrote:
Why not, if it's no more in alpha state I'll use for sure on next install, I have no time to waste if
it's not strictly necessary, and gentoo will still be the most customized distro even if installed
from the graphical installer instead than "all-by-hands".


Hi Metteo Azzali,

I note by your status your a Gentoo Developer, so firstly many thanks for all your hard work :D

thank you but I'm really the last one dev. to thank, here, the hard work is done by the other devs actually, really.
Quote:

With your "insider knowledge" as a developer, are you saying in your quote that the current released installer is still Alpha quality code? If so, then surely that shouldn't have been put onto a release CD as it just makes Gentoo look bad :?

No, I'm saying that the last time I had to install gentoo it was alpha, now it isn't anymore and it's safe.
Quote:

I think the point here is that we want to be able to choose between the two options and not be forced to do a Stage3 install or use any type of installer. I liked being able to start form stage1 tarball and work upwards, it just felt better and seemed to work better with less incompatible packages etc.

incompatible packages? If you choose the right stage3 there's nothing incompatible. Also even starting from stage3 you
need to emerge world, so anything will be re-emerged with the flags you choosed. What's the issue there? There's a specific
bug you're talking about?

Quote:

It may have taken ages to compile, but then that's my choice! I accept that a decent installer makes things quicker to install, but I'd go for flexibility over speed any day. For example, installing a Hardened system on Software RAID-1 is currently a nightmare with no stable stage1 tarballs!

??? I've seen people installing software raid easily even with Kubuntu...... This guide is not helpfull?

Also, you know that you can easily install an older version of livecd/stage1 and then update it
(yep, is not the fastest way, but you said that compile time doesn't scares you and this way you'll not get more
than a 10% compile time increase cause of the emerge system/world command)
_________________
Every day a new distro comes to birth. Every day a distro "eats" another.
If you're born distro, no matter what, start to run.
---- http://www.linuxprinting.org/ ---- http://tuxmobil.org/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
richard.scott
Veteran
Veteran


Joined: 19 May 2003
Posts: 1497
Location: Oxfordshire, UK

PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2007 11:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Matteo Azzali wrote:
incompatible packages? If you choose the right stage3 there's nothing incompatible. Also even starting from stage3 you
need to emerge world, so anything will be re-emerged with the flags you choosed. What's the issue there? There's a specific
bug you're talking about?


I've always had probs with packages failing to re-compile when converting a stage3 install to hardened etc. :oops:

Is this the best way to re-build your system if you've set a new profile or flags etc?

Code:
emerge --oneshot binutils gcc virtual/libc
emerge -e world


Apart from emwrap.sh is there a gentoo tool that will execute the correct commands for converting your system?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Matteo Azzali
Retired Dev
Retired Dev


Joined: 23 Sep 2004
Posts: 1133

PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2007 11:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

richard.scott wrote:

Is this the best way to re-build your system if you've set a new profile or flags etc?

Code:
emerge --oneshot binutils gcc virtual/libc
emerge -e world


Apart from emwrap.sh is there a gentoo tool that will execute the correct commands for converting your system?


1) I don't think so, the way you use to rebuild is a discount and misses emerge -e system (for example using your
commands you'll not re-emerge glibc before emerging world and this may cause issues, even if usually it doesn't).
Referring to Gcc general update guide the
perfect way could be
Code:
emerge --oneshot binutils gcc virtual/libc
emerge -e system
emerge -e world


Also check that you're setting only safe cflags, said that, I'm not an expert
about hardened (I'm usually on the bleeding edge to test packages...)

2) I'm not aware of any other script like emwrap, but if you really need to manually do something I would suggest to really
do it by hands as scripts aren't usually the best way (they tend to get outdated fast, they may be optimized for somene else
needs, etc.etc.). If you need to automatize the process (to install in more than one system) "do it by hands" and then just
copy your bash history in an sh file.
If you're scared by the option of really do it by hands you can search for documentation , I usually use web shortcuts
(I have them for konqueror but I'm sure you can have for firefox too) for gentoo-wiki, gentoo-portage, etc.etc.
to dig through tons of different documents.
_________________
Every day a new distro comes to birth. Every day a distro "eats" another.
If you're born distro, no matter what, start to run.
---- http://www.linuxprinting.org/ ---- http://tuxmobil.org/


Last edited by Matteo Azzali on Mon May 14, 2007 11:45 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
NeddySeagoon
Administrator
Administrator


Joined: 05 Jul 2003
Posts: 40818
Location: 56N 3W

PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2007 11:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

To answer a few earlier points,

If you need to do a network install, using wireless, use Knoppix as your liveCD, or any liveCD that provides ndiswrapper.
Note that Knoppix does not provide the Windows drivers you will need

If you want to install (and even maintain) Gentoo from the minimal liveCD with no network connection, you need Sneakernet

Its difficult to vote in this poll, I'm a fairly experianced user, so I've not used the GUI installer and see no need to switch now.
Indeed, I do most of my installs via ssh, so emerge can run 24/7. The people you really need to get to vote here are the ones who have never installed Gentoo.

Looking back over my years with Gentoo, I would say that the GUI installer robs users of a valuable learning experiance. The stage installs are more than a Gentoo rite of passage, they teach you how to maintain your system too.

Oh, how did I vote - I spoilt my ballot paper
_________________
Regards,

NeddySeagoon

Computer users fall into two groups:-
those that do backups
those that have never had a hard drive fail.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
NeddySeagoon
Administrator
Administrator


Joined: 05 Jul 2003
Posts: 40818
Location: 56N 3W

PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2007 11:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

richard.scott,

You are supposed to start with a hardened stage, not convert a normal install to hardened.
Converting a normal stage 3 install to hardened is longer possible with 2007.0, as you would need to downgrade glibc.

Hopefully, hardened gcc-4.x and >=glibc-2.4 will be along soon.
_________________
Regards,

NeddySeagoon

Computer users fall into two groups:-
those that do backups
those that have never had a hard drive fail.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
d2_racing
Moderator
Moderator


Joined: 25 Apr 2005
Posts: 13047
Location: Ste-Foy,Canada

PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2007 11:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You can try the Stage 5 :) : https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-534039.html
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Reply to topic    Gentoo Forums Forum Index Gentoo Chat All times are GMT
Goto page 1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Page 1 of 4

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum