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augustin
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2016 2:48 am    Post subject: Replacement for kuser? Reply with quote

kuser is being masked/deprecated:
https://archives.gentoo.org/gentoo-dev-announce/message/c4fcef77d881bfbb9483401b10c25bc4
Unfortunately, no replacement is being suggested.

Does KDE have another application fulfilling the same need (graphical user/group management)?
If not, what other replacement would you suggest?
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augustin
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2016 3:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I notice I already have kde-plasma/user-manager installed, so I guess this is the official replacement. The problem is that I don't know how to access it. Nothing shows in the KDE settings (admin center) nor do I see anything in the application menu. I am currently searching for the relevant documentation...
Code:
[I] kde-plasma/user-manager
     Available versions:  (5) 5.7.5 ~5.8.1
       {debug}
     Installed versions:  5.7.5(5)(14:51:20 10/21/16)(-debug)
     Homepage:            https://www.kde.org/
     Description:         Simple system settings module to manage the users of your system

https://packages.gentoo.org/packages/kde-plasma/user-manager
No binary seems to be installed with this package:
http://www.portagefilelist.de/site/query/listPackageVersions/?category=kde-plasma&package=user-manager&do#result


???
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kite14
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2016 9:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kde-plasma/user-manager only provides the "Account Detail" entry in System Settings, so it has very limited capabilities, far less than kuser.
Try:
Code:
equery f user-manager

to find out all the files that this package installs; it provides /usr/share/kservices5/user-manager.desktop that fires up the "Account Detail" window without accessing System Settings.
So far I wasn't able to find any alternative for kuser. I will keep it installed as long as it doesn't mess up with next KDE updates...
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augustin
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2016 10:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks kite14,

I figured out about the same.
I unmasked kuser. Unless there is a proper alternative, I may end up having my own overlay, and keep such packages alive longer, especially since there is essentially nothing wrong with kuser. It's not broken: why remove it and force a lesser alternative on us??

Both KDE developers and Gentoo developers do what they want. We don't pay them enough for us demand anything from them. However, this kind of decision is frustrating. I have exclusively been using Linux for 16 years, but it seems the linux desktop has been doing one step forward, one step back for the last so many years....

http://linux.overshoot.tv/ticket/9550#comment-753
Quote:

Tags: +KDE is not dead but quite sick

Apparently kuser was the best user administration tool available, but for some reasons, it was dropped:
Quote:

Since 13.10 we're stuck with the lame User Manager. The old functions are now in kuser but the interface isn't quite as clean as is was and you can't launch it from system settings. Another gnome-ish decision by the KDE devs, IMO.

We are stuck between two paradigms:
- dumbing down the system so that the 'average user' is not intimidated by too many settings (group management) => reduce to the extreme the GUI tool for user management.
- providing flexibility for power users and more complex set ups => forced to go back to the CLI.

I find the CLI to be best for tasks that I perform very regularly. I always have a konsole open where I perform my daily tasks. However, group management is not part of my daily tasks, so I'd rather use a GUI tool, if only to add a user to the 'wheel' group (on gentoo).
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asturm
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2016 12:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kuser collides with 50% of the KDE Applications release, no one has ported it. A mail was sent, no one cared. Would you like to? For a start, you could patch out the kdepimlibs:4 dependency to get rid of that huge blocker. It can re-enter KDE Applications as soon as someone did the port. Maybe now that it's been kicked, someone will do it.

Older versions of kuser may be installed through kde-sunset overlay. Talking about versions; this package hasn't got code commits in years, other than slapping the scheduled KDE Applications release tag on it.
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augustin
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2016 6:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks asturm.

You're asking me if I'd like to send a mail? Sure, if it can help. Whom shall I reach out to?
Other than that, I don't have the competence to port the application myself. I can do the next best thing, though, which is to document everything I know about the problem:
http://linux.overshoot.tv/kde-apps/kuser
Let me know everything you know and that a developer would need to know in order to bring kuser back from the dead (The deprecation announcement was titled "Last Rites"!)

I still don't understand why using kde4 libraries is such a problems.
I still don't understand why would couldn't be allowed to stick with kde4 untill such a time when kde5 has reach feature-parity.
I still don't understand why kde developers need to write many applications from scratch at each major release, wasting limited, volunteer developer resources.

I'll do what I can to contribute to the vision that I have of a dream Linux experience on the desktop. I see many things that I feel are wrong. I'll do what I can, given my own limited abilities and resources, to be part of the solution.


No active EOL'ing of major software branches:
http://linux.overshoot.tv/blogs/augustin/no_active_eoling_major_software_branches
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asturm
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2016 7:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

augustin wrote:
Let me know everything you know and that a developer would need to know in order to bring kuser back from the dead (The deprecation announcement was titled "Last Rites"!)

https://community.kde.org/Frameworks/Porting_Notes
augustin wrote:
(The deprecation announcement was titled "Last Rites"!)

That's a Gentoo mask message, it has nothing to do with upstream.
augustin wrote:
I still don't understand why using kde4 libraries is such a problems.

KDE4 Being unmaintained. Qt4 being unmaintained. And before that, Qt3 being unmaintained.
augustin wrote:
I still don't understand why would couldn't be allowed to stick with kde4 untill such a time when kde5 has reach feature-parity.

Someone's got to do the work. Yes, allowing users to stick with KDE4 means work, if no dev is using KDE4, it is impossible to keep it up. There is no KDE5 btw, and kuser not being released anymore does not mean you can not use it while running Plasma-5. The two are not connected.
augustin wrote:
I still don't understand why kde developers need to write many applications from scratch at each major release, wasting limited, volunteer developer resources.

Can't dictate what an open source developer shall work on.

augustin wrote:
No active EOL'ing of major software branches:
http://linux.overshoot.tv/blogs/augustin/no_active_eoling_major_software_branches

Again, someone's got to do the work. Not sure what you are trying to tell there, you can't force people to work on that stuff. If no one's interested anymore, well, that's pretty much EOL, isn't it? The old code isn't going anywhere on the other hand, so anyone is free to pick it up. As did the Trinity chap with KDE3...

If you think you can have a world where KDE1 to Plasma-5 are installed happily side-by-side, give it a try, it will end in a trainwreck. Upstream does not even support Plasma-4 besides Plasma-5, hence, a lot of blockers.
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Last edited by asturm on Mon Nov 28, 2016 8:26 pm; edited 1 time in total
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gerard27
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2016 7:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just tried "user-manager" on my uptodate install of kde5.
When I click it a window opens asking for root's password.
Entering that followed by enter, "kuser" opens.
IOW it all works as before.
I am running unstable.
Gerard.
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augustin
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2016 3:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

gerard82 wrote:
I just tried "user-manager" on my uptodate install of kde5.
When I click it a window opens asking for root's password.
Entering that followed by enter, "kuser" opens.
IOW it all works as before.
I am running unstable.
Gerard.


Where?
Personally, I type 'kuser' in krunner and it works well.
However, in the KDE system settings > Account Details > User Manager, I get the 'updated', trimmed-down KDE Plasma replacement.

In any case, kuser is not broken and works well. :)
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augustin
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2016 4:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

asturm wrote:
augustin wrote:
Let me know everything you know and that a developer would need to know in order to bring kuser back from the dead (The deprecation announcement was titled "Last Rites"!)

https://community.kde.org/Frameworks/Porting_Notes


Thanks. I added the link and a note to the wiki: http://linux.overshoot.tv/kde-apps/kuser

Quote:

augustin wrote:
(The deprecation announcement was titled "Last Rites"!)

That's a Gentoo mask message, it has nothing to do with upstream.

Yes, you are right. That's what I meant, but I didn't express myself clearly. Sorry. The link to the Gentoo announcement is above.

Quote:

augustin wrote:
I still don't understand why using kde4 libraries is such a problems.

KDE4 Being unmaintained. Qt4 being unmaintained. And before that, Qt3 being unmaintained.

I understand that. But 'unmaintained' is not synonymous to 'broken' or 'unusable'.
I am not asking anyone to maintain them if they don't want to. Just don't go out of your way to prevent us from using at least a while longer those stable, tried and tested frameworks.


Quote:

augustin wrote:
I still don't understand why would couldn't be allowed to stick with kde4 untill such a time when kde5 has reach feature-parity.

Someone's got to do the work. Yes, allowing users to stick with KDE4 means work, if no dev is using KDE4, it is impossible to keep it up. There is no KDE5 btw, and kuser not being released anymore does not mean you can not use it while running Plasma-5. The two are not connected.


You and others have mentioned that there is a major technical hurdle on having Plasma 4 and Plasma 5 run alongside each other. I'd like to know where those technical limitations were discussed. (This is not a request, btw.) One day, I'd like to understand and document what makes it impossible to run the two together. From what I understand, it's due to some upstream (KDE) bad decision.

Other than that, I understand that KDE4 apps and KDE5 apps (kde4libs and kde5libs) can live together, as our current systems can testify (I run Plasma 5, with a few KDE4 apps, among which... kuser).
So why remove such applications from the tree? Just leave it there... with the understanding that it's not the Gentoo developers' job to help us should we run into problems. Let us take our own responsibilities and give the community an opportunity to band together and help each other, should there be a demand.

Quote:

augustin wrote:
I still don't understand why kde developers need to write many applications from scratch at each major release, wasting limited, volunteer developer resources.

Can't dictate what an open source developer shall work on.


Yes. You are right. I obviously fully agree with you. There is nothing wrong with that. I hope I made that clear from the beginning: I am not paying anybody to use all the fine tools I use on a daily basis. Nobody owes me anything and far from me the idea to dictate anything to anyone... especially to people who already contribute so much. Thanks.

But my perplexity still stands. I really don't understand why kde developers need to write many applications from scratch at each major release, wasting limited, volunteer developer resources. I don't know the effort it would have take to port applications like kuser to Plasma 5. What technical hurdle where there that were insurmountable? Why KDM was replaced by SDDM? etc. What technical necessity forces developers to seemingly re-invent the wheel at each major release?


Quote:

augustin wrote:
No active EOL'ing of major software branches:
http://linux.overshoot.tv/blogs/augustin/no_active_eoling_major_software_branches

Again, someone's got to do the work. Not sure what you are trying to tell there, you can't force people to work on that stuff. If no one's interested anymore, well, that's pretty much EOL, isn't it? The old code isn't going anywhere on the other hand, so anyone is free to pick it up. As did the Trinity chap with KDE3...


There is an important distinction that I don't seem to make clear.
- I am not asking for anyone to do more work for my sake.
- If distro developers and upstream developers don't want to offer support, that's fine by me. That's their prerogative.
However:
- EOL does not mean broken or unusable.
- Some of us do value stability over bleeding-edge.
- The so-called bleeding-edge is not even on par, feature-wise, with the previous major branch! So what being tooted as an 'upgrade' actually often feels like a regression.
- The way packaging is done and organized, it feels that we are being forced to "upgrade". We are being herded into unstable releases and desktop environment. Why remove a perfectly working piece of software from the portage tree? Just leave it there.


To take kuser as an example, the "Last Rites" announcement read thus:
Quote:
# Johannes Huber <johu@g.o> (16 Nov 2016)
# Masked for removal in 30 days. Declared as dead by upstream.
# Last release with 16.08.3. Exported to kde-sunset overlay.
kde-apps/kuser

https://archives.gentoo.org/gentoo-dev-announce/message/c4fcef77d881bfbb9483401b10c25bc4

I wish the Gentoo developers had:
- mentioned the package of the official "replacement" of kuser, namely kde-plasma/user-manager.
- acknowledged the fact that the replacement is far from being the equivalent of kuser, feature-wise. Install both, run them side by side: the two applications are not in the same league!
- acknowledged the fact that there is no feature-equivalent proper replacement for kuser.
- left the kuser ebuild in the tree, since it's not broken and works perfectly well alongside plasma 5. Why go out of your way to move the ebuild into another overlay, when by doing less work, you'd be giving us more freedom?
- simply made clear that KDE4 apps are not supported. They are being left in the portage for our convenience, but that it's up to the community to support itself.



Quote:

If you think you can have a world where KDE1 to Plasma-5 are installed happily side-by-side, give it a try, it will end in a trainwreck. Upstream does not even support Plasma-4 besides Plasma-5, hence, a lot of blockers.


Why not?
KDE-1 was re-released no later than last month!!
http://linux.overshoot.tv/ticket/9575
I don't understand the technical blockers and incompabilities to have Plasma 4 and 5 together, but surely, it should be feasible to install KDE3 on today's gentoo, alongside Plasma 5. KDE3 was fine, stable and rock solid.
As a proof of concept, I'd like one day to install KDE 1 and KDE 3 on my system, and if I can, KDE2 as well.
Some people are talking about porting KDE3 to QT5!! :)
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asturm
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2016 6:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

augustin wrote:
I understand that. But 'unmaintained' is not synonymous to 'broken' or 'unusable'.
I am not asking anyone to maintain them if they don't want to. Just don't go out of your way to prevent us from using at least

Once again: Keeping it in tree is synonymous with maintenance. kde-sunset is at your service, where those applications are free to pick for you, and you get to keep the breakage as userspace moves on.

augustin wrote:
However:
- EOL does not mean broken or unusable.

It means that downstream needs to take on upstream's work, keeping that thing building, even running, with recent userspace, piling up patches. Gentoo is not a good fit for that. You can do that on a dinosaur release of Ubuntu or CentOS where all the dependencies are pretty much frozen.

augustin wrote:
Why not?
KDE-1 was re-released no later than last month!!

It installs to /opt and is barely usable.

augustin wrote:
Some people are talking about porting KDE3 to QT5!! :)

Sure, again, if they do the work, that's fine, but talk is cheap and code doesn't write itself. On the other hand, this is a bit silly - porting KDE3 to Qt5, what do they end up with? Pretty much with what we already have in Plasma-5 and KDE Applications today. Going by your logic, instead of duplicating the effort that has already been made, shouldn't they rather add the bits they feel are missing there?
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mas-
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2016 11:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Augustin is IMHO right on one point however:

Developers are really keen to develop new stuff. I understand why they love it. Thats more fun than porting old-stuff or debugging things.

But all too often they totally forget the user perspective and try to push new stuff that is pre-alpha state and contains many regressions. And then they wonder why there are so many complaints.

And receiving complaints for hard volunteer work is really frustrating and not motivating at all to keep porting old stuff.

Vicious circle closed. Too bad.

Do I have a solution to the problem? Not really. Maybe more open minded communication from both sides helps...
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