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predatorfreak
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2007 7:36 pm    Post subject: A Discussion Of Forum Policy (Was: Ban me.) Reply with quote

I've decided that the Gentoo Forums administrative staff do not take criticism well at all and lack a firm concept of "warning" instead of "banning". Below is something I said not long ago in the #gentoo-forums IRC channel, which I was kicked for only a few minutes later, afterwhich I requested to be banned by pilla, because I could see they didn't like what I was saying.

Quote:
<predatorfreak> nixnut: Instead of spending time to write out why I think you're a jackass and sending it over PM right now, I'm going to do it in a public setting so everyone here knows what I said.
<nixnut> by all means
<predatorfreak> nixnut: First and foremost: I've been active for 2 years on the Gentoo forums, I've helped out quite a few people, contributed to some user projects and generally been a good guy.
<predatorfreak> I believe, given that my first infraction was a personal-attack issue, a warning would have been sufficient to get the point across.
<predatorfreak> Banning, as far as I'm concerned, should be a last resort for people who repeatedly break the rules.
<predatorfreak> Second: Considering the issue that got me banned was spawned because the user in question took a simple statement as an "assault" and that I dropped the topic after I realised I was getting too worked up over it, I think that banning me was beyond what was required.
<predatorfreak> and third, you seem to be under the impression that because people get angry and some people are not subtle, they should be banned, yet someone who is subtle in their attacks shouldn't be.
<predatorfreak> Given all that, I figure you're a jackass.


The only part of that which can be constrewed as a personal attack was the use of the word "Jackass", which was used instead of saying something like "I figure you're an incompetant administrator" or "I figure you didn't choose the correct option". Because of my choice of the word Jackass to get the point across as directly as possible, I was banned from the IRC channel (as stated above, by request).

I am NOT a bad person, nor do I wish to attack people, but I wanted to be as direct and blunt as possible and sadly, that is considered an attack per the current rules. Additionally, I do not think the current policies that the administrators are upholding are acceptable in a community as large and diverse as this, fights and small debates are bound to happen and when they do, sooner or later, someone will make personal attacks. Warning users ahead of time to calm down seems like a better option than banning them.

I only wish to help this community grow and get better, but the administrators do not seem to take criticism well when someone is blunt and direct, which sadly is the only way I know to get stuff done, if you are NOT blunt and direct in cases like these, your criticism will be lost and disgarded, you NEED to be blunt to make sure they get the point.

Since I'm sure the administrators will not like that I'm stating this, the topic of this thread is "Ban me", because if you're not going to listen to my suggestions, just ban me, for I no longer wish to be a part of this community.
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Last edited by predatorfreak on Mon Mar 26, 2007 9:43 pm; edited 2 times in total
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2007 8:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Right, so you break the guidelines at OTW, go to an irc channel devoted to reporting issues with the forums, then you abuse a moderator, and it's all our fault?

Calling people "jackasses" is not acceptable by our guidelines. Anyone that I catch breaking the guidelines in the channel will be kicked. It's all that simple. If somebody doesn't agree with some moderation action, this person should contact moderators to state his reasons, not to call them jackasses.

BTW, you don't need to be banned to go away, if you don't like the community anymore.

more complete log wrote:

18:57 -!- predatorfreak [n=predator@c-69-136-158-65.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #gentoo-forums
18:58 < predatorfreak> nixnut: Instead of spending time to write out why I think you're a jackass and sending it over PM right now, I'm
going to do it in a public setting so everyone here knows what I said.
18:58 <@nixnut> by all means
18:59 < predatorfreak> nixnut: First and foremost: I've been active for 2 years on the Gentoo forums, I've helped out quite a few people,
contributed to some user projects and generally been a good guy.
19:00 < predatorfreak> I believe, given that my first infraction was a personal-attack issue, a warning would have been sufficient to get
the point across.
19:01 < predatorfreak> Banning, as far as I'm concerned, should be a last resort for people who repeatedly break the rules.
19:02 < predatorfreak> Second: Considering the issue that got me banned was spawned because the user in question took a simple statement as
an "assault" and that I dropped the topic after I realised I was getting too worked up over it, I think that banning
me was beyond what was required.
19:03 -!- atl64 [n=jmbsvice@gentoo/developer/jmbsvicetto] has joined #gentoo-forums
19:03 -!- mode/#gentoo-forums [+o atl64] by ChanServ
19:03 < predatorfreak> and third, you seem to be under the impression that because people get angry and some people are not subtle, they
should be banned, yet someone who is subtle in their attacks shouldn't be.
19:03 < predatorfreak> Given all that, I figure you're a jackass.
19:04 <@nixnut> fine. thanks for insulting me and goodbye
19:04 < predatorfreak> nixnut: I'm not leaving.
19:04 < Monkeh> predatorfreak: I don't think that's what he meant, somehow.
19:04 < predatorfreak> Monkeh: Yeah.
19:05 < predatorfreak> He means admin abuse.
19:05 < predatorfreak> In which case, I will report it.
19:05 < predatorfreak> Hopefully that will get him removed from power.
19:05 < Monkeh> predatorfreak: This channel is all about op abuse. You don't hang around here much, do you?
19:05 <@kallamej> predatorfreak: he means that insulting someone gets you nowhere
19:05 < predatorfreak> kallamej: I decided to use jackass because it gets the point across in one word.
19:05 < predatorfreak> Being subtle is not my strong suit.
19:06 <@kallamej> you can be frank without insulting someone
19:06 < Monkeh> That's somewhat obvious..
19:06 < predatorfreak> kallamej: That's being subtle and it requires more words.
19:06 < Monkeh> Oh, so you're just lazy?
19:07 <@kallamej> Monkeh: please leave it alone
19:07 < predatorfreak> Jackass sums it all up in one word and it doesn't leave anything to interpretation.
19:07 < Monkeh> kallamej: Yeah, I was just thinking I should stay out of this.
19:07 < predatorfreak> Unless of course, you think I mean a Maul.
19:10 -!- atl64_ [n=jmbsvice@213.13.244.242] has joined #gentoo-forums
19:15 -!- mode/#gentoo-forums [+o pilla] by ChanServ
19:15 -!- predatorfreak was kicked from #gentoo-forums by pilla [no personal attacks]
19:15 -!- predatorfreak [n=predator@c-69-136-158-65.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #gentoo-forums
19:16 -!- jmbsvicetto [n=jmbsvice@gentoo/developer/jmbsvicetto] has quit [Connection timed out]
19:16 <@pilla> predatorfreak: if you insist, I'll ban you
19:16 < predatorfreak> pilla: Go for it.
19:17 < predatorfreak> pilla: Just because I'm asking for it.
19:17 < predatorfreak> Jackass.
19:17 -!- mode/#gentoo-forums [+b *!*=predator@*.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] by pilla
19:17 -!- predatorfreak was kicked from #gentoo-forums by pilla [bye]

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2007 8:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

predatorfreak,

Your opening statement from the quote shows that what you did was premeditated and you knew it was against the rules.

Gentoo, IRC and the forums are not democracies and everyone is free to express their own opinions within the Gentoo community provide standards of civility are upheld. When those standards are breached, the ops in IRC or the mods on the forums can choose to act. Its pretty feudal, in fact.

To be blunt and continue the feudal simillie, when you upset your feudal overlord, your own opinion doesn't count. Howerver, if you still feel aggrieved, there is an appeals process which you can find on gentoo.org.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2007 8:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

When you've calmed down, please read topic 120351, especially the second post.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2007 8:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pilla wrote:
Right, so you break the guidelines at OTW, go to an irc channel devoted to reporting issues with the forums, then you abuse a moderator, and it's all our fault?

Calling people "jackasses" is not acceptable by our guidelines. Anyone that I catch breaking the guidelines in the channel will be kicked. It's all that simple. If somebody doesn't agree with some moderation action, this person should contact moderators to state his reasons, not to call them jackasses.

BTW, you don't need to be banned to go away, if you don't like the community anymore.

more complete log wrote:

18:57 -!- predatorfreak [n=predator@c-69-136-158-65.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #gentoo-forums
18:58 < predatorfreak> nixnut: Instead of spending time to write out why I think you're a jackass and sending it over PM right now, I'm
going to do it in a public setting so everyone here knows what I said.
18:58 <@nixnut> by all means
18:59 < predatorfreak> nixnut: First and foremost: I've been active for 2 years on the Gentoo forums, I've helped out quite a few people,
contributed to some user projects and generally been a good guy.
19:00 < predatorfreak> I believe, given that my first infraction was a personal-attack issue, a warning would have been sufficient to get
the point across.
19:01 < predatorfreak> Banning, as far as I'm concerned, should be a last resort for people who repeatedly break the rules.
19:02 < predatorfreak> Second: Considering the issue that got me banned was spawned because the user in question took a simple statement as
an "assault" and that I dropped the topic after I realised I was getting too worked up over it, I think that banning
me was beyond what was required.
19:03 -!- atl64 [n=jmbsvice@gentoo/developer/jmbsvicetto] has joined #gentoo-forums
19:03 -!- mode/#gentoo-forums [+o atl64] by ChanServ
19:03 < predatorfreak> and third, you seem to be under the impression that because people get angry and some people are not subtle, they
should be banned, yet someone who is subtle in their attacks shouldn't be.
19:03 < predatorfreak> Given all that, I figure you're a jackass.
19:04 <@nixnut> fine. thanks for insulting me and goodbye
19:04 < predatorfreak> nixnut: I'm not leaving.
19:04 < Monkeh> predatorfreak: I don't think that's what he meant, somehow.
19:04 < predatorfreak> Monkeh: Yeah.
19:05 < predatorfreak> He means admin abuse.
19:05 < predatorfreak> In which case, I will report it.
19:05 < predatorfreak> Hopefully that will get him removed from power.
19:05 < Monkeh> predatorfreak: This channel is all about op abuse. You don't hang around here much, do you?
19:05 <@kallamej> predatorfreak: he means that insulting someone gets you nowhere
19:05 < predatorfreak> kallamej: I decided to use jackass because it gets the point across in one word.
19:05 < predatorfreak> Being subtle is not my strong suit.
19:06 <@kallamej> you can be frank without insulting someone
19:06 < Monkeh> That's somewhat obvious..
19:06 < predatorfreak> kallamej: That's being subtle and it requires more words.
19:06 < Monkeh> Oh, so you're just lazy?
19:07 <@kallamej> Monkeh: please leave it alone
19:07 < predatorfreak> Jackass sums it all up in one word and it doesn't leave anything to interpretation.
19:07 < Monkeh> kallamej: Yeah, I was just thinking I should stay out of this.
19:07 < predatorfreak> Unless of course, you think I mean a Maul.
19:10 -!- atl64_ [n=jmbsvice@213.13.244.242] has joined #gentoo-forums
19:15 -!- mode/#gentoo-forums [+o pilla] by ChanServ
19:15 -!- predatorfreak was kicked from #gentoo-forums by pilla [no personal attacks]
19:15 -!- predatorfreak [n=predator@c-69-136-158-65.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #gentoo-forums
19:16 -!- jmbsvicetto [n=jmbsvice@gentoo/developer/jmbsvicetto] has quit [Connection timed out]
19:16 <@pilla> predatorfreak: if you insist, I'll ban you
19:16 < predatorfreak> pilla: Go for it.
19:17 < predatorfreak> pilla: Just because I'm asking for it.
19:17 < predatorfreak> Jackass.
19:17 -!- mode/#gentoo-forums [+b *!*=predator@*.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] by pilla
19:17 -!- predatorfreak was kicked from #gentoo-forums by pilla [bye]


Posting the extra log was pointless, as it adds nothing to what I stated, I told the truth of what I said in that channel, I directly stated that I REQUESTED the ban (using Jackass was just to make sure you actually went through with it.)

Abuse and criticism are two different things, if you cannot understand the difference, you do not deserve to be an administrator or even a moderator. Abuse is saying things like "You're a fucking faggot" or "You're a god-damn idiot.", where as criticism is stating reasons why you believe that people have screwed up. Harsh words make a point, I was attempting to make a point in a direct and blunt manner. The fact that you cannot tell the difference between criticism and abuse tells me you do not deserve to be an administrator.

Also, I fully acknowledge that I was out of line in OTW, but a WARNING would have been sufficient to get the point across. It's not all your fault, but the problem is with your rules and actions, there are so many ways you could have handled this BETTER, it is NOT my fault that I was banned for something that warranted at warning.

Your guidelines are the problem then, not me. I stated my reasons and enforced my point by calling nixnut a Jackass, you just don't take criticism well.

Since nothing will come of this, ban me, because the administrative staff is obviously a bunch of "Jackasses" (Read: Incompetant and unwilling to accept criticism). I will not be a part of a community that cannot even take criticism.

kallamej wrote:
When you've calmed down, please read topic 120351, especially the second post.


I can't, I have absolutely no read access to OTW when I am logged in because your forum software is crap. Honestly, someone needs to extend phpBB.

Edit: Logging out real quick to actually be able to read that, I'm confronted with the exact problem I'm trying to get fixed here, horrible policies. Ban first is a horrible policy, it's like shoot first, it doesn't solve problems, it creates them.

NeddySeagoon wrote:
predatorfreak,

Your opening statement from the quote shows that what you did was premeditated and you knew it was against the rules.

Gentoo, IRC and the forums are not democracies and everyone is free to express their own opinions within the Gentoo community provide standards of civility are upheld. When those standards are breached, the ops in IRC or the mods on the forums can choose to act. Its pretty feudal, in fact.

To be blunt and continue the feudal simillie, when you upset your feudal overlord, your own opinion doesn't count. Howerver, if you still feel aggrieved, there is an appeals process which you can find on gentoo.org.


It was my choice to say Jackass instead of something else, I considered this to be a direct and blunt way of making a point.
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Last edited by predatorfreak on Mon Mar 26, 2007 8:19 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2007 8:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

predatorfreak,

Quote:
Harsh words make a point, I was attempting to make a point in a direct and blunt manner.
Your point was lost because it was obscured by the harsh words.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2007 8:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NeddySeagoon wrote:
predatorfreak,

Quote:
Harsh words make a point, I was attempting to make a point in a direct and blunt manner.
Your point was lost because it was obscured by the harsh words.


The fact there were only two uses of Jackass in the primary part of the above statements I made on IRC shows that the administrative staff was distracted by the usage of one word twice in about three paragraphs, that is horrible.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2007 8:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

predatorfreak wrote:

Posting the extra log was pointless, as it adds nothing to what I stated, I told the truth of what I said in that channel, I directly stated that I REQUESTED the ban (using Jackass was just to make sure you actually went through with it.)


It shows clearly that you knew what you were doing and that after I kicked you, you insisted on it.

predatorfreak wrote:

The fact that you cannot tell the difference between criticism and abuse tells me you do not deserve to be an administrator.


Or maybe you are the one that doesn't know the difference.

predatorfreak wrote:

Since nothing will come of this, ban me, because the administrative staff is obviously a bunch of "Jackasses" (Read: Incompetant and unwilling to accept criticism). I will not be a part of a community that cannot even take criticism.


As I said, why don't you just walk away?


predatorfreak wrote:

kallamej wrote:

When you've calmed down, please read topic 120351, especially the second post.


I can't, I have absolutely no read access to OTW when I am logged in because your forum software is crap. Honestly, someone needs to extend phpBB.


Log out of the forums, then access it. But I'll post it for your convenience:

klieber wrote:
Despite our best efforts, we've still been having a number of problems with people violating these guidelines. As such, we're implementing a new policy -- ban first and ask questions later. If a moderator or site admin finds a post that violates one of these guidelines, that person will most likely be banned immediately. No warnings, no second chances. This policy only applies to OTW, where it seems people are unable to get along.

Thus, if you attack someone personally, degrade, belittle or otherwise behave unprofessionally towards your fellow forum users, do not be surprised to find yourself banned shortly thereafter.

--kurt

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2007 8:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pilla wrote:
predatorfreak wrote:

kallamej wrote:

When you've calmed down, please read topic 120351, especially the second post.


I can't, I have absolutely no read access to OTW when I am logged in because your forum software is crap. Honestly, someone needs to extend phpBB.


Log out of the forums, then access it. But I'll post it for your convenience:

klieber wrote:
Despite our best efforts, we've still been having a number of problems with people violating these guidelines. As such, we're implementing a new policy -- ban first and ask questions later. If a moderator or site admin finds a post that violates one of these guidelines, that person will most likely be banned immediately. No warnings, no second chances. This policy only applies to OTW, where it seems people are unable to get along.

Thus, if you attack someone personally, degrade, belittle or otherwise behave unprofessionally towards your fellow forum users, do not be surprised to find yourself banned shortly thereafter.

--kurt


Read my edit.

pilla wrote:
predatorfreak wrote:

Posting the extra log was pointless, as it adds nothing to what I stated, I told the truth of what I said in that channel, I directly stated that I REQUESTED the ban (using Jackass was just to make sure you actually went through with it.)


It shows clearly that you knew what you were doing and that after I kicked you, you insisted on it.



I stated that you kicked me, I stated that I requested this, I stated that I insisted upon it by using "Jackass". I knew what I was doing, I am not smoking crack, obviously I am aware of my own actions. I never denied my actions, I stated my reasoning behind my actions, but I did NOT deny them. I do not distort the truth, that is not honourable nor wise, it always bite you back later.

Edit: If you believe there are inaccuracies in my statements, then by all means, point them out, I will happily clarify anything, I am NOT trying to state lies and distortions, I want to get a successful rethinking of policy to help IMPROVE these forums. If that cannot be achieved, then I will leave and lock my account.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2007 8:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think it's nice and fair to discuss our policies, although it doesn't grant you the right of breaking them nor abusing moderators. If you want to go with an online version of civil disobedience just because you think your ban is unfair, you aren't getting far away with it. It won't get you unbanned, nor it will get the rules changed.

When you apologize to all involved people, you may start to get some reason back to your cause. Before that, I'll just consider you like somebody pissed off because some of the rules were applied to himself, and thus not deserving much attention.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2007 8:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pilla wrote:
I think it's nice and fair to discuss our policies, although it doesn't grant you the right of breaking them nor abusing moderators. If you want to go with an online version of civil disobedience just because you think your ban is unfair, you aren't getting far away with it. It won't get you unbanned, nor it will get the rules changed.

When you apologize to all involved people, you may start to get some reason back to your cause. Before that, I'll just consider you like somebody pissed off because some of the rules were applied to himself, and thus not deserving much attention.


If an apology is all you guys want so we can discuss this like men here you are: I'm sorry for insulting, attacking or otherwise violating the guidelines setup by the administrative staff. I am sorry nixnut, pilla, NeadySeagoon, kallamej and to anyone else I've offended.

Now, may we discuss the issue I see like men?
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2007 8:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

predatorfreak wrote:
I do not think the current policies that the administrators are upholding are acceptable in a community as large and diverse as this, fights and small debates are bound to happen and when they do, sooner or later, someone will make personal attacks. Warning users ahead of time to calm down seems like a better option than banning them.

I only wish to help this community grow and get better, but the administrators do not seem to take criticism well when someone is blunt and direct, which sadly is the only way I know to get stuff done, if you are NOT blunt and direct in cases like these, your criticism will be lost and disgarded, you NEED to be blunt to make sure they get the point.

Since I'm sure the administrators will not like that I'm stating this, the topic of this thread is "Ban me", because if you're not going to listen to my suggestions, just ban me, for I no longer wish to be a part of this community.

Never underestimate us :)
Yes you have a valid point that we should have placed a warning first, and NO we do take criticism seriously when (like here) there are some comprehensible/valid/good/sane reasons given.
.... BUT ....
Issue is: We (the f.g.o team) cannot read *all* threads all the time so if a discussion is heating up it might be to late to place a warning within short time.
Once a discussion is already out of hands like the one you were banned for we have no other option than to 'shoot first, ask questions later'.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2007 8:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Think4UrS11 wrote:
predatorfreak wrote:
I do not think the current policies that the administrators are upholding are acceptable in a community as large and diverse as this, fights and small debates are bound to happen and when they do, sooner or later, someone will make personal attacks. Warning users ahead of time to calm down seems like a better option than banning them.

I only wish to help this community grow and get better, but the administrators do not seem to take criticism well when someone is blunt and direct, which sadly is the only way I know to get stuff done, if you are NOT blunt and direct in cases like these, your criticism will be lost and disgarded, you NEED to be blunt to make sure they get the point.

Since I'm sure the administrators will not like that I'm stating this, the topic of this thread is "Ban me", because if you're not going to listen to my suggestions, just ban me, for I no longer wish to be a part of this community.

Never underestimate us :)
Yes you have a valid point that we should have placed a warning first, and NO we do take criticism seriously when (like here) there are some comprehensible/valid/good/sane reasons given.
.... BUT ....
Issue is: We (the f.g.o team) cannot read *all* threads all the time so if a discussion is heating up it might be to late to place a warning within short time.
Once a discussion is already out of hands like the one you were banned for we have no other option than to 'shoot first, ask questions later'.


I think that assuming someone hasn't responded to the last post of the debate/discussion at hand, you should be able to say, send a PM warning the people involved to stop bickering and/or calm down, this should be a viable option.

This gives you a chance to warn before shooting, in the case of slow-moving threads, and potentially avoids an unnessary ban which can anger people (such as me). However, I suppose that when it is a fast-moving thread, with lots of insults, probably the best option is a couple day ban from OTW to let them cooldown. By no means do I think you need to ban for two weeks, generally a few days in sufficient to calm most down.

If they just started back where they left off after a few days, then a week or two ban might be warranted, as they obviously have not had enough time to calm down.

Edit: An extra thought, say phpBB was extended to support "marking" certain users as repeated offenders for bad behavoir, this would allow administrators/moderators to guage how likely they are to continue with their actions, thus allowing them to ban more selectively for users who are known to exhibit bad behavoir often and warn those who do not.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2007 10:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

you do know that your post was just an excuse to complain, when all you had to do was just leave. you are not making anything better by what you did.
accounts that are inactive will eventually be disabled, so there is no point to notify the ops about,. "delete,deactive or ban" my account.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2007 11:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

likewhoa wrote:
you do know that your post was just an excuse to complain, when all you had to do was just leave. you are not making anything better by what you did.
accounts that are inactive will eventually be disabled, so there is no point to notify the ops about,. "delete,deactive or ban" my account.


That was resolved, this is now a discussion on how to improve the policy which lead to me getting pissed in the first place, please read the rest of the thread before replying.

Edit: The intention of this thread was/is NOT to get me banned, but to hopefully get these issues resolved. It was my position that if such issues cannot be resolved that I wished to just be banned, as there are surely better ways to solve these problems than "ban first, ask questions later" in the majority of cases.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 12:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It appears to me that since I have apologised, there is no longer any interest in discussing my points, this is simply unacceptable. There ARE better ways to handle this than "ban first, ask questions later". We are civilised people and we CAN come up with a decent solution that isn't as barbaric as the current one, but it seems that no one besides me is interested in discussing it.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 12:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We are not babysitters to keep warning people that their behavior is not acceptable in a public, support board. It's very clear in the guidelines for both the entire forums and the specific ones for the OTW forum. If it isn't clear enough, we accept suggestions of how to rephrase them.

I'm very satisfied with the current schema. It's been working fairly well for some time and you're probably the first person to complain about it (excluding people that complained about being banned, which is different IMO).
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 12:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pilla wrote:
We are not babysitters to keep warning people that their behavior is not acceptable in a public, support board. It's very clear in the guidelines for both the entire forums and the specific ones for the OTW forum. If it isn't clear enough, we accept suggestions of how to rephrase them.

I'm very satisfied with the current schema. It's been working fairly well for some time and you're probably the first person to complain about it (excluding people that complained about being banned, which is different IMO).


I'm not suggesting constantly warning people, but first offenders should get a warning where as repeated offenders shouldn't, ban's shouldn't be excessively long either, two weeks is pretty damn long for a first offence! Two days, three maybe, should be enough for people who only exhibit occasional bad behaviour. Repeated offenders who regularly exhibit bad beheviour obviously need longer bans to get the point across.

Just because a schema works well doesn't mean it can't use improvements, all I'm trying to do is suggest ways that it could be improved to help avoid banning people for first offences that are less-critical than things like spamming or some such. I'm certain there's a method we can all agree on that wouldn't add overhead to the administrative process, obviously in a forum this large the administrators and moderators can't be expected to remember every offense, but I'm certain we can divise a system which would allow administrators to track offences.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 1:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

predatorfreak wrote:
I'm certain there's a method we can all agree on that wouldn't add overhead to the administrative process, obviously in a forum this large the administrators and moderators can't be expected to remember every offense, but I'm certain we can divise a system which would allow administrators to track offences.


We already have lists of offenders, and you would be surprised by how long they are. We usually don't ban on the first offense, unless it's something really bad, although sometimes it happens because we feel like some threads are going out of control. Most of the times, the banned user just come after us, apologizes and gets his posting rights again.

OTW is not something that is a necessity, so if people gets out of the line there, two weeks is enough to cool down and we (moderators) are not overwhelmed by setting and clearing the ban. We are also voluntaries and we have other things to do too.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 3:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pilla wrote:
predatorfreak wrote:
I'm certain there's a method we can all agree on that wouldn't add overhead to the administrative process, obviously in a forum this large the administrators and moderators can't be expected to remember every offense, but I'm certain we can divise a system which would allow administrators to track offences.


We already have lists of offenders, and you would be surprised by how long they are. We usually don't ban on the first offense, unless it's something really bad, although sometimes it happens because we feel like some threads are going out of control. Most of the times, the banned user just come after us, apologizes and gets his posting rights again.

OTW is not something that is a necessity, so if people gets out of the line there, two weeks is enough to cool down and we (moderators) are not overwhelmed by setting and clearing the ban. We are also voluntaries and we have other things to do too.


Wouldn't a method of marking users accounts be more efficient than maintaining a list? Also, two weeks is MORE than what is required for most users to calm down, a week is generally sufficient even someone who is horribly angry, 2 or 3 days should be sufficient for small debates between users.

Edit: I don't imagine writing a phpBB patch to do that would be horribly hard, you'd make a new field in a user's mysql entry that would be either on or off, you'd write some code to add a button for administrators/moderators to mark users and a way of retrieving a list of marked users. I'd think it might take a day or two tops. I'd be willing to implement it myself, but I have no real PHP experience.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 4:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is anybody else annoyed by the current measures?
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 5:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

predatorfreak wrote:
Wouldn't a method of marking users accounts be more efficient than maintaining a list?
There is always a better solution than the one implemented - for nearly any issue. ;)

predatorfreak wrote:
Also, two weeks is MORE than what is required for most users to calm down, a week is generally sufficient even someone who is horribly angry, 2 or 3 days should be sufficient for small debates between users.
Well, among other reasons (like "it is as it is because the team decided that it'll be two weeks" - which by itself as a single item is of course debatable)... the shorter the ban, the more work to do for the admins to delete the ban again, so when we go e.g. for 2 days instead of 14 we'd have 7x more work with that. Plus the fact that it gets hard(er) to track them properly when the numbers go sky high due to that. Plus - a ban should also hurt a bit, otherwise there is no 'learning effect' from it.

predatorfreak wrote:
I don't imagine writing a phpBB patch to do that would be horribly hard, you'd make a new field in a user's mysql entry that would be either on or off, you'd write some code to add a button for administrators/moderators to mark users and a way of retrieving a list of marked users. I'd think it might take a day or two tops. I'd be willing to implement it myself, but I have no real PHP experience.
Mhh so who shall do it then? .... currently the whole programming for the forums is done by 1-2 of the admins and as you know all of us are volunteers i.e. we have (well at least some of us have) such things like a real/offline life. ;)
And 'just add a field into the tables' sounds much more simple than it is at the end of the day. And having this done by lets say 'some random person' is no good idea from a security point of view so it needs to be done by someone who is very intimate with the setup.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 7:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pilla wrote:
Is anybody else annoyed by the current measures?

They work fine for me. Also 14 days ban from OTW seems to be a more human method of execution than burning people on a stake and giving them a general ban, like we did in the good ole' days.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2007 12:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It still raises the problem that the general policy is rather wacko, 2 weeks is definately too long.

Generally 2-3 days is plenty of time for a person to cool down. Infact it would be better for a mod to step in and warn people that are getting heated up instead of being a jackass and throwing down the banhammer because they dont like the person.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2007 12:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For what it's (or isn't) worth, here is my 2 cents/pence/kroner.

People seem to be getting bogged down in detail over this issue.

The basic fact of the matter is intelligent people should be able to get their point(s) across without resorting to derogatory names.

Being able to install Gentoo indicates a certain level of intelligence so it is not unreasonable to expect this.

At least as far as I know, Gentoo isn't a democracy where every user gets to vote on the ways things are done, so the administrators are completely within their rights to arbitrarily decide on banning procedures and policy. The fact that they are listening (or are being seen to listen) to what people have to say is good and at least shows they care.

If people who insist on using derogatory names don't like not necessarily being given a warning, and being banned for 2 weeks then here's a tip "DON'T DO IT!"

If you have been banned, even if you think it is totally unjustified, use the time wisely. Go get back in touch with nature, breath deeply and enjoy the fact that you are alive and probably not suffering as much as 80% of the world's population. After that if you still feel you were banned wrongly at least you will feel calmer.

Good luck!
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