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EmaRsk
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2015 9:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

User: mv
Topic: The Politics of systemd
Post: post 7791370
Reason: Derailing a thread into a personal argument with steveL
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mv
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2015 4:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

EmaRsk wrote:
User: mv
Topic: The Politics of systemd
Post: post 7791370
Reason: Derailing a thread into a personal argument with steveL


How to react if somebody is continuously insulting and simultaneously badmouthing you that you would post insults which you didn't?
I think pointing to the relevant threads is appropriate so that everybody can check (Edit: I think this reaction is necessary, because otherwise the reader has no context to judge who is lying).
I have no plans to react any further.
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EmaRsk
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2015 11:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mv wrote:
EmaRsk wrote:
User: mv
Topic: The Politics of systemd
Post: post 7791370
Reason: Derailing a thread into a personal argument with steveL


How to react if somebody is continuously insulting and simultaneously badmouthing you that you would post insults which you didn't?
I think pointing to the relevant threads is appropriate so that everybody can check (Edit: I think this reaction is necessary, because otherwise the reader has no context to judge who is lying).


Frankly, I don't care to judge who is lying, this is not a jury. And I don't care much who started it, we're not in kindergarten; neither of you were talking about the topic of the thread since several posts, so you're both accountable at this point. I reported steveL as well, with the same wording, I don't know why that report doesn't show here.

If you feel insulted, please keep cool and report the user. It contributes to lowering the noise, at the same time marking a clear point where the code of conduct is violated.

BTW, I'm very sorry to report you two, because I see you both amongst the most valuable members of this forums, maybe even because you challenge each other over technical discussions. But enough is enough, the discussion has been completely buried by the bitching over there.

Quote:
I have no plans to react any further.

That sounds like a good plan (cue Hannibal Smith smoking a cigar :) ).
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mv
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2015 2:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

EmaRsk wrote:
Frankly, I don't care to judge who is lying, this is not a jury.

That's the fundamental problem with libelling in a forum - the victim's reputation gets damaged without any chance to defend.
Quote:
I reported steveL as well, with the same wording, I don't know why that report doesn't show here.

Sounds fair.
Quote:
If you feel insulted, please keep cool and report the user.

Perhaps I should have done that, but the sub-thread can still be moved. However, I would not like to see that the personal attack to which I referred in the first corresponding post remains in the "main" thread uncommented.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2015 3:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mv wrote:
EmaRsk wrote:
Frankly, I don't care to judge who is lying, this is not a jury.

That's the fundamental problem with libelling in a forum - the victim's reputation gets damaged without any chance to defend.
Quote:
I reported steveL as well, with the same wording, I don't know why that report doesn't show here.

Sounds fair.
Quote:
If you feel insulted, please keep cool and report the user.

Perhaps I should have done that, but the sub-thread can still be moved. However, I would not like to see that the personal attack to which I referred in the first corresponding post remains in the "main" thread uncommented.


Instead of derailing the thread (something all too common in ANY systemd related thread), why not handle it privately or report the issue* here to begin with, instead of driving the thread further off track? Both of you are guilty of it in this case and it detracts from the discussion we are trying to have there, which is precisely why I refrained from adding in my two cents to tell you guys to take it elsewhere.

* as far as I can tell, this started because you got offended over an opinion posted, stating that you were ashamed to share a belief with someone that holds that opinion. Isn't that exactly what you reply consisted of though? As X posted an unflattering opinion about Y, you posted an unflattering opinion about X... and the Y wasn't even you, yet you felt the need to intervene and derail the thread on their behalf. Mods had already responded to your being offended in thread, pointing out that X clearly posted an opinion, and yet you felt the need to further derail the thread. If someone posts something you object to respond and move on, if there needs to be further discussion, handle it privately.

Mods: sorry, I'm not trying to step on your toes, I run a number of forums and have to deal with this type of stuff regularly.
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mv
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2015 5:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

saellaven wrote:
you posted an unflattering opinion about X...

No. I complained about that particular behaviour of X. I consider this a fundamental difference.
That X attacked me thereafter (again personally) with lies is a different story, and it is not clear what is the best in such a situation: Let the lies stay uncommented or refer to the facts...
Quote:
X clearly posted an opinion

Attacking somebody personally is not an opinion, no matter whether it is disguised as some.
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krinn
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2015 8:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Topic: The Politics of systemd
Post: post 7794040
Reason: I'm asking a split of mv (and following) posts about the "person insult fiasco", in order to gives mv a "more or less" nice way to exit from his loop (that become pathetic now he start emphasis "person" like we are dumb and didn't understood his point).
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mv
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2015 9:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

krinn wrote:
Topic: The Politics of systemd
Post: post 7794040

The inappropriate post is already deleted. Unfortunately, I cannot remove it since there was already a reply.
Edit: several reactions have shown me that several people really did not get this point, but you are right that it is pointless and just irritating to continue that discussion.

Edit 2: I would appreciate if that (now practically empty) post (perhaps together with Tony0945's reply if he agrees) could be moved to the dustbin so that the main thread is no longer derailed.
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Tony0945
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2015 9:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mv wrote:
krinn wrote:
Topic: The Politics of systemd
Post: post 7794040

The inappropriate post is already deleted. Unfortunately, I cannot remove it since there was already a reply.
Edit: several reactions have shown me that several people really did not get this point, but you are right that it is pointless and just irritating to continue that discussion.

Edit 2: I would appreciate if that (now practically empty) post (perhaps together with Tony0945's reply if he agrees) could be moved to the dustbin so that the main thread is no longer derailed.


Yes, please remove my post. my sole objective was to stop the food fight and get back to the technical topic that started it all.
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ulenrich
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2015 11:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tony0945 wrote:
get back to the technical topic that started it all.

How that is possible? It started about "politics", which essentially is about lies, wich in turn continues. All the lies spoken about williamh playing an essential role. To the point mv stepping back, which is a typical outcome of the milgram setting.
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mv
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2015 11:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ulenrich wrote:
How that is possible?

By just removing these (two discussed) postings and returning to the topic. Experience shows that such discussions never have a good outcome if taken too long: At the end of the day, the only result is that all participants are angry and damaged and all others bored and lost their interest. The discussion in question already went too long, and people were right to complain.
Give everybody a chance to keep his face and to be more polite the next time!
Quote:
typical outcome of the milgram setting

I do not see any relation. Maybe you can explain me by PM what you want to say here.
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desultory
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2015 3:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

saellaven wrote:
Instead of derailing the thread (something all too common in ANY systemd related thread), why not handle it privately or report the issue* here to begin with, instead of driving the thread further off track? Both of you are guilty of it in this case and it detracts from the discussion we are trying to have there, which is precisely why I refrained from adding in my two cents to tell you guys to take it elsewhere.

* as far as I can tell, this started because you got offended over an opinion posted, stating that you were ashamed to share a belief with someone that holds that opinion. Isn't that exactly what you reply consisted of though? As X posted an unflattering opinion about Y, you posted an unflattering opinion about X... and the Y wasn't even you, yet you felt the need to intervene and derail the thread on their behalf. Mods had already responded to your being offended in thread, pointing out that X clearly posted an opinion, and yet you felt the need to further derail the thread. If someone posts something you object to respond and move on, if there needs to be further discussion, handle it privately.

Mods: sorry, I'm not trying to step on your toes, I run a number of forums and have to deal with this type of stuff regularly.
No worries, considering that you made largely the same points I would have, you saved me typing. You have my sympathy with regard dealing with such things on a regular basis.

Split from "Report violations, duplicates, misplaced posts, etc.".

krinn wrote:
Topic: The Politics of systemd
Post: post 7794040
Reason: I'm asking a split of mv (and following) posts about the "person insult fiasco", in order to gives mv a "more or less" nice way to exit from his loop (that become pathetic now he start emphasis "person" like we are dumb and didn't understood his point).
That and other posts are being split off, thanks for the prodding.
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ulenrich
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2015 11:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mv wrote:
Give everybody a chance to keep his face and to be more polite the next time!

I offered steveL an apropriate re-interpretation as certain strength of his own instead of essential incompetence of Hubbs at https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-p-7793544.html#7793544
I mean an insect has competence breathing ... desultory needed wikipedia and a lot of space to rationalize it:
steveL wrote:
Hubbs is essentially incompetent, in my professional opinion
is just utter bullshit saying, see why:
https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-p-7794712.html#7794712
But a forum administrator had pushed you instead: Not fully having quoted the word "opinion" was your fault, although it is clear from the beginning all was opinion in that Gentoo Chat "The Politics of systemd". This easy way of moderation instantly encouraged
steveL wrote:
.... Hubbs is incompetent ... professional opinion ... professional opinion ... I won't apologise ... professional opinion ...
at https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-p-7793744.html#7793744
A moderated milgram setting then you stepping aside.
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desultory
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 08, 2015 3:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ulenrich wrote:
I mean an insect has competence breathing ... desultory needed wikipedia and a lot of space to rationalize it:
The is a difference between rationalizing and explanation, your own drive for the former obscures your view of the latter.
ulenrich wrote:
steveL wrote:
Hubbs is essentially incompetent, in my professional opinion
is just utter bullshit saying, see why:
Mind your language, this is not Off the Wall.,
ulenrich wrote:
But a forum administrator had pushed you instead: Not fully having quoted the word "opinion" was your fault, although it is clear from the beginning all was opinion in that Gentoo Chat "The Politics of systemd". This easy way of moderation instantly encouraged
steveL wrote:
.... Hubbs is incompetent ... professional opinion ... professional opinion ... I won't apologise ... professional opinion ...
at https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-p-7793744.html#7793744
A moderated milgram setting then you stepping aside.
Are you attempting to claim that he was compelled to use a term because of actions taken after he wrote it?
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 08, 2015 10:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

desultory wrote:
ulenrich wrote:
I mean an insect has competence breathing ... desultory needed wikipedia and a lot of space to rationalize it:
The is a difference between rationalizing and explanation, your own drive for the former obscures your view of the latter.

@desultory, in my german languag/culture in this context "rationalizing" is as a critic. It means to have done a half way of an explanation. I want to criticize your biased view of steveL as a rational guy: He is not self reflective in any way. He is over ambitious all the way, which itself is highly irrational as it is a well known way to early death of a substantial part of the population.
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 08, 2015 12:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ulenrich,

There is no requirement for an opinion to be either rational nor based in fact.

I will avoid citing well known examples here as they will all be inflamatory some some segment of the readership.
If you really feel the need for examples you can PM me.
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desultory
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 09, 2015 5:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ulenrich wrote:
@desultory, in my german languag/culture in this context "rationalizing" is as a critic. It means to have done a half way of an explanation. I want to criticize your biased view of steveL as a rational guy: He is not self reflective in any way. He is over ambitious all the way, which itself is highly irrational as it is a well known way to early death of a substantial part of the population.
You seem to either be missing or avoiding the point: your reaction to steveL has been inappropriate, regardless of whether he exists as a creature of strict logical rigor, or is driven purely by whimsy, or any mingling of the two.
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 09, 2015 6:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

NeddySeagoon wrote:
ulenrich,

There is no requirement for an opinion to be either rational nor based in fact.

But there is of both of it for a "professional opinion", which supposedly decides the fate of other peoples life. Obviously it is the job of steveL to deliver such in real life. He described his experience about it.
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steveL
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 09, 2015 8:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ulenrich wrote:
steveL [is not] a rational guy: He is not self reflective in any way. He is over ambitious all the way, which itself is highly irrational as it is a well known way to early death of a substantial part of the population.

Just preserving this, so I don't have to pretend you're anything other than hostile in the future.

No, you don't need to back it up with reasoning, as it's pure speculation, and those who know me, will doubtless laugh at the idea that I'm "over ambitious".

Can't remember when someone last accused me of that; normally I get told I'm so laid back, I'm falling over.

Cheers for the laughs though, and the confirmation that you think so little of me.

It means I don't have to keep responding to all those surreal posts where you talk nonsense, and then explicate that you like talking nonsense, and do so as an escape from the humdrum, or whatever crap you said several times already, when everyone else just thinks you're talking rubbish.
I don't have to pretend to take you at face value, and can instead rely on my experience of several years reading your "escapes from reality" and consign them to /dev/null as soon as I see your nick.
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 09, 2015 8:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mv wrote:
How to react if somebody is continuously insulting and simultaneously badmouthing you that you would post insults which you didn't?
I think pointing to the relevant threads is appropriate so that everybody can check (Edit: I think this reaction is necessary, because otherwise the reader has no context to judge who is lying).

Glad you did, as it's plain to anyone who can read that you're way out of line in those, as well as this.
Quote:
I have no plans to react any further.

And yet you still do. You go on, and on, and on.

All to avoid dealing with your own baggage. Boring.
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