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Anon-E-moose
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 06, 2015 12:55 pm    Post subject: What a Difference a Word Makes Reply with quote

EmaRsk wrote:
g99 wrote:
I'd just like to point out that one dev (sorry, I don't remember who) said on the mailing list that ffmpeg's (then) 57% of the votes was not a strong majority.


It was hasufell (http://article.gmane.org/gmane.linux.gentoo.devel/94722), and I find it really misguided and dishonest, because anybody who has seen the results can see that there's a overwhelming majority.


hasufell :roll: well that explains the stupidity.

Split from ffmpeg/libav default in Gentoo. — JRG
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yngwin
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 07, 2015 6:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anon-E-moose wrote:
EmaRsk wrote:
g99 wrote:
I'd just like to point out that one dev (sorry, I don't remember who) said on the mailing list that ffmpeg's (then) 57% of the votes was not a strong majority.


It was hasufell (http://article.gmane.org/gmane.linux.gentoo.devel/94722), and I find it really misguided and dishonest, because anybody who has seen the results can see that there's a overwhelming majority.


hasufell :roll: well that explains the stupidity.

Please refrain from personal attacks. That doesn't help settle the issue in any way.

Reported.
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Anon-E-moose
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 07, 2015 11:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

yngwin wrote:
Anon-E-moose wrote:
EmaRsk wrote:
g99 wrote:
I'd just like to point out that one dev (sorry, I don't remember who) said on the mailing list that ffmpeg's (then) 57% of the votes was not a strong majority.


It was hasufell (http://article.gmane.org/gmane.linux.gentoo.devel/94722), and I find it really misguided and dishonest, because anybody who has seen the results can see that there's a overwhelming majority.


hasufell :roll: well that explains the stupidity.

Please refrain from personal attacks. That doesn't help settle the issue in any way.

Reported.


It wasn't a personal attack, it was a stupid statement on his part, and not the first by him either.
And as Fitzcarraldo pointed out it was rather disingenuous.
A kind of political CYA for decisions already made by devs without caring what the users want.


Edit to add: What would be nice would be any dev that works on some project like libav
abstain from making decisions in gentoo of favoring that software over another.
They're hardly in a position of being impartial.
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John R. Graham
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 07, 2015 1:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In my estimation, it falls within the definition of personal attack, although it's definitely on the mild end of the scale; certainly it's bad netiquette. Also, you should know that something doesn't cease to be a personal attack merely because you're right (or you believe you are).

I'd like to make a personal plea to the Gentoo user community. I believe it's a really good thing when the Developers ask the users their opinion on technical issues. I'd like to see more of it, not less. Please, could we make an effort to behave in such a way that encourages such dialog?

- John
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baaann
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 07, 2015 1:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

John R. Graham wrote:

I'd like to make a personal plea to the Gentoo user community. I believe it's a really good thing when the Developers ask the users their opinion on technical issues. I'd like to see more of it, not less. Please, could we make an effort to behave in such a way that encourages such dialog?

- John


+1
Well said John
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Anon-E-moose
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 07, 2015 1:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll take care to word things differently so assumptions don't come into play from now on.
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khayyam
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 07, 2015 7:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

John R. Graham wrote:
I'd like to make a personal plea to the Gentoo user community. I believe it's a really good thing when the Developers ask the users their opinion on technical issues. I'd like to see more of it, not less. Please, could we make an effort to behave in such a way that encourages such dialog?

John ... such a dialogue would probably also be helped if users weren't treated as permanently infected with grumblitus, or some paranoid disorder. Also, it might help if these consultations weren't performed as last minute thoughts, and finalised almost as quickly ... dialogue takes time, and effort is required so that don't operate as some unwanted, but necessary, ritual.

Developers are agents of the community and operate under its aegis, as such they should be accountable to that community, and held to the highest standard when it comes to the work they do, how they communicate that work, and how they "interact" with the community. I've had too many bad experiences myself to treat them with deference, and though I appreciate the time they put in, and sympathise with any mistreatment they might garner, they can't be treated as somehow special because they come to us to gauge our opinion, or get feedback ... that is simply part of what a developers work entails.

If people treat others unfairly then that is one thing, and it should be frowned upon, but quite honestly developers could also do with some lessons on how to "encourage dialogue".

best ... khay
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John R. Graham
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 07, 2015 7:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The "other people are bad actors too" argument is a non-starter for me. Doubtless, we could all improve; however, I try to be an equal opportunity Moderator.

- John
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Ant P.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 07, 2015 7:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

@khay

...which can probably be summed up as: "We'll be nice, but you need to leave your mailing-list culture at the door too".
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khayyam
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 07, 2015 7:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

John R. Graham wrote:
The "other people are bad actors too" argument is a non-starter for me. Doubtless, we could all improve; however, I try to be an equal opportunity Moderator.

John ... I wasn't using the "moral equivalency" argument, it was clear in the above that both developers and users should be held to the *same* standard. The point is, if it is indeed a "dialogue" then both parties have to behave in a way conducive to dialogue, I wasn't excusing the behaviour of either.

best ... khay
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John R. Graham
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 07, 2015 8:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fair enough. I thought I detected a hint of, "I will if they will," but perhaps I was overreacting. :)

Ant P. wrote:
...which can probably be summed up as: "We'll be nice, but you need to leave your mailing-list culture at the door too".
No argument there.

- John
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Navar
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PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2015 9:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

John R. Graham wrote:
I'd like to make a personal plea to the Gentoo user community. I believe it's a really good thing when the Developers ask the users their opinion on technical issues. I'd like to see more of it, not less. Please, could we make an effort to behave in such a way that encourages such dialog?

++
(ignoring the imperfect world arguments that will follow... because non-discussion isn't the answer either.)
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