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cokey Advocate
Joined: 23 Apr 2004 Posts: 3355
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thestick Guru
Joined: 07 Apr 2006 Posts: 531 Location: /dev/urandom
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Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2007 1:53 pm Post subject: |
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I`m really gonna miss him.
Go with Christ , diego. |
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anello Guru
Joined: 17 Jul 2005 Posts: 557 Location: EU -> DE -> Stuttgart
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Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2007 2:28 pm Post subject: |
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damn! Its getting worse and worse. Why isn't the council or devrel or whatever is responisible to supervise finally taking measures? He isn't the first to complain about that situtation ... _________________ Antonino Catinello | http://catinello.eu |
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wah Guru
Joined: 25 Feb 2005 Posts: 453 Location: Raleigh, NC, USA
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Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2007 2:41 pm Post subject: |
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I was sad to hear this as well...I always enjoyed reading Diego's blog entries, as they were very informative.
Good luck Diego! Keep up the good work!
Cheers,
W. _________________ - AMD64 3000+, MSI K8N-SLI, Nvidia Geforce 6600 PCIE, 2GB OCZ Dual-Channel PC3200,2x160GB SATA
- Registered Linux User #418541 |
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cokey Advocate
Joined: 23 Apr 2004 Posts: 3355
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Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2007 3:29 pm Post subject: |
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anello wrote: | damn! Its getting worse and worse. Why isn't the council or devrel or whatever is responisible to supervise finally taking measures? He isn't the first to complain about that situtation ... | because half of devrel resigned _________________ https://otw20.com/ OTW20 The new place for off the wall chat |
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Voltago Advocate
Joined: 02 Sep 2003 Posts: 2593 Location: userland
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Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2007 3:31 pm Post subject: |
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cokehabit, since you yourself are no stranger to flaming, I feel that kind of post coming from you is a bit hypocritical. |
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anello Guru
Joined: 17 Jul 2005 Posts: 557 Location: EU -> DE -> Stuttgart
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Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2007 3:38 pm Post subject: |
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cokehabit wrote: | anello wrote: | damn! Its getting worse and worse. Why isn't the council or devrel or whatever is responisible to supervise finally taking measures? He isn't the first to complain about that situtation ... | because half of devrel resigned |
with no replacements?!? _________________ Antonino Catinello | http://catinello.eu |
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blubbi Guru
Joined: 27 Apr 2003 Posts: 564 Location: Halle (Saale), Germany
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Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2007 6:32 pm Post subject: |
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farewell flameeyes
It's not the first dev which got "mobbed" out and I guess if the "responsible" persons woun't change their behavior, he will not be the last.
Gentoo structure is build up on such devs like flameeyes and it's not a good habit du scare them away!
So go an think about your "education"!
regards
blubbi |
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yngwin Retired Dev
Joined: 19 Dec 2002 Posts: 4572 Location: Suzhou, China
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Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2007 6:52 pm Post subject: |
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This is outrage! Flameeyes has been one of the best developers we have had. It will be a great loss to see him leave. And with jakub thinking of doing the same, I think Gentoo is in real trouble. It is so sad to see such a lack of leadership in this distro we all love. _________________ "Those who deny freedom to others deserve it not for themselves." - Abraham Lincoln
Free Culture | Defective by Design | EFF |
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blubbi Guru
Joined: 27 Apr 2003 Posts: 564 Location: Halle (Saale), Germany
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Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2007 7:41 pm Post subject: |
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Full Ack!
I guess some devs just forgett about "social behavior" while they ar sitting over their code.
It's a really sad path we are on right now. |
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amne Bodhisattva
Joined: 17 Nov 2002 Posts: 6378 Location: Graz / EU
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Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2007 8:02 pm Post subject: |
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Voltago wrote: | cokehabit, since you yourself are no stranger to flaming, I feel that kind of post coming from you is a bit hypocritical. |
FWIW cokehabit was kicked out of userrel way faster than anyone from Gentoo for similar misbehaviour. _________________ Dinosaur week! (Ok, this thread is so last week) |
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cokey Advocate
Joined: 23 Apr 2004 Posts: 3355
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Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2007 9:02 pm Post subject: |
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Voltago wrote: | cokehabit, since you yourself are no stranger to flaming, I feel that kind of post coming from you is a bit hypocritical. | I dont understand what you are trying to say. I am saying that I am amazed that Gentoo is so bad behind the scenes that one of it's best developers leaves _________________ https://otw20.com/ OTW20 The new place for off the wall chat |
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cokey Advocate
Joined: 23 Apr 2004 Posts: 3355
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Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2007 9:10 pm Post subject: |
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anello wrote: | cokehabit wrote: | anello wrote: | damn! Its getting worse and worse. Why isn't the council or devrel or whatever is responisible to supervise finally taking measures? He isn't the first to complain about that situtation ... | because half of devrel resigned | with no replacements?!? | Yes but It seems like people skills and leadership are obviously more needed at the moment. Devrel seems impotent, the council seems to be doing ok, i'm not sure if the trustees have had to do anything recently, userrel doesn't seems to doing anything vaguely to do with the users and the userreps have stalled. _________________ https://otw20.com/ OTW20 The new place for off the wall chat |
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tsunam Retired Dev
Joined: 23 Feb 2004 Posts: 343
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Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2007 9:49 pm Post subject: |
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cokehabit wrote: | anello wrote: | cokehabit wrote: | anello wrote: | damn! Its getting worse and worse. Why isn't the council or devrel or whatever is responisible to supervise finally taking measures? He isn't the first to complain about that situtation ... | because half of devrel resigned | with no replacements?!? | Yes but It seems like people skills and leadership are obviously more needed at the moment. Devrel seems impotent, the council seems to be doing ok, i'm not sure if the trustees have had to do anything recently, userrel doesn't seems to doing anything vaguely to do with the users and the userreps have stalled. |
The trustee's have absolutely no responsibility for the technical side of the gentoo project. They have nothing to do with this issue, so don't mention them like they have some part in this at all. Its Devrel and the Council that are responsible for anything of this nature. This has been boiling for a while, and the last straw has finally be broken. _________________ I'm not afraid of happy endings, just afraid my life wont work that way. |
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rhill Retired Dev
Joined: 22 Oct 2004 Posts: 1629 Location: sk.ca
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Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2007 10:33 pm Post subject: |
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We're screwed. _________________ by design, by neglect
for a fact or just for effect |
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think4urs11 Bodhisattva
Joined: 25 Jun 2003 Posts: 6659 Location: above the cloud
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Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2007 10:53 pm Post subject: |
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dirtyepic wrote: | We're screwed. |
Nope, we're on the beginning of an (seems to) urgently needed constructive+respectful discussion. Everything else would be cowardly 'duck and cover behaviour'.
Should include _all_ parties from 'known power users'/'otherwise known helpful persons', developers, dev/userrel up to the council. _________________ Nothing is secure / Security is always a trade-off with usability / Do not assume anything / Trust no-one, nothing / Paranoia is your friend / Think for yourself |
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TheCoop Veteran
Joined: 15 Jun 2002 Posts: 1814 Location: Where you least expect it
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Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2007 11:22 pm Post subject: |
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will enough people really get their heads out of their asses to have that constructive conversation/debate, or will gentoo die the death of a thousand forks?
What gentoo needs is the ppl causing all the problems (dunno who those are, really...) to be kicked out, cvs access revoked, etc etc. But thats not going to happen. _________________ 95% of all computer errors occur between chair and keyboard (TM)
"One World, One web, One program" - Microsoft Promo ad.
"Ein Volk, Ein Reich, Ein Führer" - Adolf Hitler
Change the world - move a rock |
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think4urs11 Bodhisattva
Joined: 25 Jun 2003 Posts: 6659 Location: above the cloud
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Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2007 11:42 pm Post subject: |
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TheCoop wrote: | will enough people really get their heads out of their asses to have that constructive conversation/debate, or will gentoo die the death of a thousand forks?
What gentoo needs is the ppl causing all the problems (dunno who those are, really...) to be kicked out, cvs access revoked, etc etc. But thats not going to happen. |
The later is not a solution but a workaround. With that the actual situation might be fixed but i've some severe doubts about.
If noone stands up to really clean up the mess from ground up we'll face similar situations regulary in near future again and again. It is very obvious (to me) that some of the background processes seem to be a bit inefficent (or need some more attention) - from guys and girls who can cope with that. _________________ Nothing is secure / Security is always a trade-off with usability / Do not assume anything / Trust no-one, nothing / Paranoia is your friend / Think for yourself |
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Voltago Advocate
Joined: 02 Sep 2003 Posts: 2593 Location: userland
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Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2007 11:56 pm Post subject: |
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TheCoop wrote: | What gentoo needs is the ppl causing all the problems (dunno who those are, really...) to be kicked out, cvs access revoked, etc etc. |
Oh, you mean the developers
But seriously though, I'm pretty sure you can't lay the blame on a couple of badguys and hope if they are gone that everything will be sunshine and lollypops. When you got a group of over-worked under-appreciated people, I can imagine that everyone is a little on edge and some minor disagreement quickly escalates to a full-grown flamefest. No, what Gentoo probably needs is consolidation: Axe sub-projects that go nowhere, push package groups in overlays, create versioned toolchains and drop support for everything else, that kind of thing. Less complexity. Less workload. |
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blubbi Guru
Joined: 27 Apr 2003 Posts: 564 Location: Halle (Saale), Germany
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Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2007 11:58 pm Post subject: |
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I guess the big problem is that you can not punish someone for mobbing out others.
Everybody is working for free on a project, so if one got mobbed out, you throw the evel one out too... it ends up in -2 devs for gentoo... not good.
Some "institution" of thrusted, respected and fairminded users/devs should arbitrate.... I guess that was what uerrel/devrrel was intended to do, wan't it? But this idea implies that the attacked dev seeks contact to "the institution"... would you? Wouldn't it let you look like a child crying for you mom?
Quite complicated the whole situation.
regards
blubbi |
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TheCoop Veteran
Joined: 15 Jun 2002 Posts: 1814 Location: Where you least expect it
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Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2007 11:59 pm Post subject: |
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I suspect there's no easy answer to fix it. And devs would be loath to implement any deep changes to How Things Are Done, even if it alienates the community, which is what gentoo was based on in the first place _________________ 95% of all computer errors occur between chair and keyboard (TM)
"One World, One web, One program" - Microsoft Promo ad.
"Ein Volk, Ein Reich, Ein Führer" - Adolf Hitler
Change the world - move a rock |
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cokey Advocate
Joined: 23 Apr 2004 Posts: 3355
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Posted: Tue Feb 20, 2007 12:09 am Post subject: |
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tsunam wrote: | cokehabit wrote: | anello wrote: | cokehabit wrote: | anello wrote: | damn! Its getting worse and worse. Why isn't the council or devrel or whatever is responisible to supervise finally taking measures? He isn't the first to complain about that situtation ... | because half of devrel resigned | with no replacements?!? | Yes but It seems like people skills and leadership are obviously more needed at the moment. Devrel seems impotent, the council seems to be doing ok, i'm not sure if the trustees have had to do anything recently, userrel doesn't seems to doing anything vaguely to do with the users and the userreps have stalled. |
The trustee's have absolutely no responsibility for the technical side of the gentoo project. They have nothing to do with this issue, so don't mention them like they have some part in this at all. Its Devrel and the Council that are responsible for anything of this nature. This has been boiling for a while, and the last straw has finally be broken. | i know that, thats why i said i dont think they have had anything to do, i didn't mean to make it seem like that _________________ https://otw20.com/ OTW20 The new place for off the wall chat |
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cokey Advocate
Joined: 23 Apr 2004 Posts: 3355
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Posted: Tue Feb 20, 2007 12:20 am Post subject: |
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Maybe developers could be added to a "sin bin" or something?
There also seems to be a complete lack of willingness to admit there is a problem.
Also it seems that -core just exists so devs can have a shouting match, if there wasn't an invisible list to the users then maybe people would think twice about saying something _________________ https://otw20.com/ OTW20 The new place for off the wall chat |
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aidanjt Veteran
Joined: 20 Feb 2005 Posts: 1118 Location: Rep. of Ireland
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Posted: Tue Feb 20, 2007 12:33 am Post subject: |
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I agree, there's a massive delrel problem, even though I can't chat in -dev, I still sometimes go there to weigh up the form. Often I see needless, childlike bickering and huff-motivated kick/bans, particularly coming from a 'developer' who likes to talk a lot without much substance to back it up. When I see the internal bickering of developers it makes me not want to bother to file bugs or submit ebuilds, I don't see how this mess is left to grow into a damn fine developer leaving because devrel is on side of the provocator, everyone should be kicking up stink, and left nameless person should be dealt with seriously. |
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steveL Watchman
Joined: 13 Sep 2006 Posts: 5153 Location: The Peanut Gallery
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Posted: Tue Feb 20, 2007 3:55 am Post subject: |
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jakub wrote: | EAPI docs – last commit there about month ago; devmanual bugs rotting in bugzilla; QA violations breaking the tree are ignored (with hal vs. pciutils being the most recent example) |
I've been waiting for that EAPI thing, which was apparently discussed on the dev list last summer. Don't know about the other stuff; @kloeri: is any of the above accurate in your opinion?
One thing I would say; geoman started the rudeness in the context of the bugzilla conversation. I've seen far too many posts from devs who seem to think it's acceptable to insult people. Can we at least get a consensus that this is unacceptable? IOW attack ideas, not people. And yes, whoever devrel are, imo they need to enforce politeness. FFS the forums are better moderated.
Personality clashes will always happen; can't devs just avoid each other? God knows i avoid some, and i'm not even a contributor.. |
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