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Red Moose
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PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2007 9:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ateo wrote:

Nope. Not at all. I'm sick and tired of dinking with Linux, Gentoo especially. I've learned enough and what I've learned is good and I will not forget. Having an OS that works out of the box means productivity within minutes of installation.



THis is true, but for some people, productivity and rock solid stability is the primary goal; many other like to mess up shit and it's a different target audience. No distro is perfect for you without knowing what it is you want out of it.
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PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2007 5:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I left Gentoo like 3 weeks ago, to OpenSUSE. I came back after 1 week.
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PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2007 11:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, sometimes you need a bit of perspective to re-realize that Gentoo is da' Best.

I came to Gentoo from OpenSuSE and marveled at how clean everything was.

The fact that people always come back leads to the saying,
Quote:
Flame your new distro as you come crawling back, we need the publicity
:wink:
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PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2007 3:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Left Gentoo about a month ago for Debian. Wouldn't dream of going back. I've got better things to do with my time than compile, revdep-rebuild, rinse, repeat.
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PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2007 6:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BorgDrone2 wrote:
Left Gentoo about a month ago for Debian. Wouldn't dream of going back. I've got better things to do with my time than compile, revdep-rebuild, rinse, repeat.

yawn, 2003 called... it wants it's intellectually lame reasoning back!
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PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2007 6:53 pm    Post subject: Re: I'm leaving gentoo (sick of it) Reply with quote

[quote="turtles"]
jsosic wrote:
.
The pcmcia-cs to pcmciautils migration guide never made it out of bugzilla however peoples systems are getting clobbered by kernel updates that do not support pcmcia-cs. However pcmciautils does not replace all the functionality of pcmcia-cs. So there is work to do here.


Yeah, and deciding that the migration guide somewhere else is just as good, when it really isn't, is just laziness. I think I'm typical of a intermediate user in that I'm able to follow instructions, but the package like pcmciautils still doesn't work. So you'll pardon my anger when, after spending a month trying to Diagnose the problem, I find that, oh, it was working, but the upgrade decided to reassign my eth1 device to eth2, without a hint of what it did. Oooh, someone forgot to mention that would happen too.

I've largely left Gentoo for reasons just as I written above and much more (Broken Updates, constant downgrading, etc). In short, the developers have no appreciation when it comes to somebody else's machine breaking because of the screwing around they just had to do. It would be one thing if there upgrading was actually adding enhancements to the previous versions, but just upgrading just because it can be done is something pretty inexcusable. Anyhow, what was my base Gentoo system now serves as the foundation for my Linux from Scratch system. More primitive than emerge in a lot of ways, but at least the upgrades don't render my machine totally inoperable.....and I don't have to specify 12 USE keywords/variables to make portage build using the 2 configure flags that I only have to specify when I build a package.
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PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2007 8:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Having tried most popular alternatives to Gentoo (OpenSUSE, Mandriva, Fedora, Debian/Ubuntu/etc., Slackware) - you realise that while the Gentoo process of installation is perhaps the most annoying and most "work-involving" in the day-to-day usage, it's still one of the better alternatives if you're looking to do some programming or increase your machine's security.

Compare how easy it is to do a LUKS install on Gentoo to that of Fedora Core (for example) (and disregarding the current development of Fedora Core 7 integration) - there's all those devel packages, and well - you wouldn't really want to build everything by hand using the (make, make install, make clean, rm )process. Portage is simply amazing - write a short ebuild - and you're done! That said, if you just want to have a good install out of the box - then Kubuntu/Xubuntu do that just fine (run a couple of those on the slower computers).
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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2007 7:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jonnevers wrote:
one should be smart enough to say "gentoo isn't for me, i'll use X [whatever you want here]" and just go about their day


Full ack!

Maybe I'm just peculiar, but between giving reasons for leaving (as even requested in one thread by a dev) and just making a grand exit, I feel there's a lot of posing going around by people who somehow feel compelled to vent their frustration and leave something steaming and smelly in the forums before lofty-nosedly announcing their departure towards greener pastures.

Reminds me of folks during my childhood that tried to emotionally blackmail everyone by threatening to "stop being friends" with them. 8O

edit by nixnut: 'posing' url removed, since the site owner seems to dislike direct linking and shows rather disgusting stuff instead
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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2007 8:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My system is rock solid now (dvd playback + burning, alsa, cups, graphics, etc,) except some minor issue of being unable to put the whole thing to hibernate mode as regular user. Sometimes one has to resist the temptation that came from portage (if it ain't broken, don't fix it) in order to avoid the possibilty of breaking the whole thing, becomes frustrated & quits in the end. Of course, it doesn't apply to all users because risk takers (those who love to experiment with their system) are necessary in order to produce a stable environment by testing the softwares.
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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2007 9:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jonnevers wrote:
yawn, 2003 called... it wants it's intellectually lame reasoning back!

If you don't have anything constructive to contribute, then don't post at all. Your language is not something we like to see here.
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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2007 11:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

nixnut wrote:
jonnevers wrote:
yawn, 2003 called... it wants it's intellectually lame reasoning back!

If you don't have anything constructive to contribute, then don't post at all. Your language is not something we like to see here.

I think I was being constructive. I was just pointing out that digging at Gentoo by using the time it takes to compile everything is OLD news. By now people should know the story before they get into gentoo.

how come the mods don't PM about this sort of thing? what if i never bothered reading this thread again?

My opinion on complaining about the compile time associated with Gentoo stands, it's lame.
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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2007 11:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jonnevers wrote:
My opinion on complaining about the compile time associated with Gentoo stands, it's lame.


Yeah, I totally agree.

Things get right with Gentoo, and that makes it worth every minute it takes. And with PORTAGE_NICENESS the system can still be used while compiling, so what's the problem anyway? As I usually let it be about a fortnight between syncs/updates, I think the "tinkering-time" is extremely small compared to the time I enjoy the result.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2007 6:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just thought I would post my two cents, even though I'm somewhat of a dinosaur. I've been using Linux a long time now, since redhat 5.0 and the 0.32 kernel I believe it was. I've used RH, SuSe, slackware, Mandrake(before it was madrivia or whatever),debian, and corel(beta tester). Admittedly I have not tried any of the ten million new flavours out there, however I have tried recent versions of SuSe, Mandrivia, and RH and Debian. I recently decided to try Gentoo as a developer friend turned me on to it, knowing I had given up on any of the big Linux distributions, he seemed to think I would like a source based system. He was somewhat right, I like thats it source based, but must admit to hating package managers. Because I hate package managers somewhat my linux system fo the last three years has been total custom, not a dist at all, and I must admit that Gentoo of all the distributions I tried is by far the best.

It seems to me after reading some of the negative comments about Gentoo that many people who use a computer just don't weant to know how things work, or why, they just want to point and click. Unfortunately this is the same attitude that empowers bad programming, and allows corporate giants like MS to exist, because if no one wants to know whats going on, or don't care, then sloppyness can always be overcome with sheer power.
I've seen many comments about a computer being a tool, and with other dists you can use that tool right away to be productive. Well I can grab a hammer and maybe nail a few boards together, but unless I take the time to learn to use that tool, well neither my knowledge or ability will change. But if I take the time to learn to use that tool, then there is almost no limit to what can be done with the tool. The fact that Gentoo requires configuration like it does, is a big positive for me and not a negative. After all I don't want someone telling me how to dress, eat, when to sleep etc... why would I want someone to decide that for my computer and my operating system.

Anyway just my two cents. On the lighter side for those of you wishing your linux system was more like windows, you can always go to
http://www.linuxgenuineadvantage.org/
:twisted:
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2007 8:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the link Phosphor.
I quite agree with you.
Long live Gentoo!
Gerard.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2007 6:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I keep coming back to Gentoo as well. I like SuSE as well. But the emerge system is just so neat and easy! Installing and upgrading software on other distros seems really tedious since I've discovered portage.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2007 3:46 am    Post subject: emerge --search Reply with quote

My experience with Gentoo was kind of like an electric fan started on its slowest speed, tough at first. Now that I'm spun up, I feel like a flywheel going at top speed.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2007 10:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

guys, this threads are only useful if they provide some constructiveness, something that devs can use to improve Gentoo. But forcing Gentoo to become like distro XXX is not going anywhere.
As someone pointed out above, everyone should realize what he needs, and then find the distro that meets that requirement. Saying that distro X is better or Gnome is better tha KDE or Fluxbox rocks is always a matter of needs.

I would like to contribute with some thinking here:
- Windows, and easy distros like Ubuntu are easy to setup, but when problems come up, they are harder to fix due to the inherit automatism. Gentoo is harder to setup, but it remains quite solid. I think in the end you invest about the same amount of time. On Gentoo, you invest it in the begining. On easy distros or Windows during the maintainance phases.

For those complaining about compilation time, I strongly encourage you to try ArchLinux. In my opinion it combines the conveniency of binaries, with the granularity of Gentoo. Unless you are an active dev who needs to tweak the sources with patches, or very specific packages, then ArchLinux truly rocks. I wish Gentoo and Arch merged somehow, in a way that Gentoo could use Arch's binaries :roll:

Another warning for people switching to Ubuntu: Gentoo forums have spoiled you like a rich kid. Gentoo community is full of talented people willing to help. They answer your problem to the point. You get things solved. On the other hand, with Ubuntu, people are not always that skilled and when searching for an anwer, you need to go through lots of posts that simply don't add any valuable information. Gentoo's community is one of the best assets of this distro.

And there's nothing wrong with leaving Gentoo. It probably means that your goals and priorities in life have changed, which is not necesarily a bad thing. If Gentoo doesn't bring you anything anymore, good luck with your new distro.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2007 11:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

batistuta wrote:
snip... it's only one post up, after all!
I couldn't agree more. Using ArchLinux' binary repository could be a Good Thing™, but at the moment I think many people are frustrated by the portage tree lagging behind major releases...
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2007 11:17 am    Post subject: Re: I'm leaving gentoo (sick of it) Reply with quote

jsosic wrote:
Also, any of other, stickin-to-gentoo users, has anyone noticed any QA degradation in the last 6 months? Maybe some slowdown on update of ebuilds for newer versions of programs or something?


Yes.
I think that Gentoo is having a middle age crisis.

In the worst case, it will become irrelevant like Slackware.
In the best case, it will become the basis for a new and innovative distribution, the way that Debian has become the basis for Ubuntu.

I cannot see Gentoo still being a going and vital distribution in 5 years time, if things continue this way.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2007 10:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like Gentoo a lot. Before Gentoo I only tried out Debian, which is fine too but it doesn't suit me because it's too conservative, and I end up having to compile a lot of stuff. Since it's not a source-based distro, it's annoying to set up a compiling environment.

Gentoo to me seems to be the perfect balance between bleeding-edge and stability. I only installed Gentoo once, and since it's my first install, I've done a lot of shitt here (eg switching between x86/~x86) and I've had very few problems, and I solved them pretty quickly by just searching the documentation or the forum.

The only thing that bothers me is broken ebuilds... Mono-basic doesn't compile here, and I've recently had a problem compiling amanith also:
Code:
media-libs/amanith-0.3-r1 failed to build:

freetype/internal/ftgloadr.h: No such file or directory

I set -truetype on packages.use and it emerged ok... Weird.

But I don't know if that's an issue with the ebuild or something is broken here, like I said, I messed around pretty much here.

In the end, everything gets solved, and I have a pretty fast and solid OS, with the (almost) latest stuff.

But I probably wouldn't be using Gentoo if I didn't have a Core 2 Duo @ 3ghz... It extremely fast, so compiling stuff doesn't bother me excpet for very few packages, like firefox or openoffice.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2007 10:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If that's your first mono install, I don't know what's causing it. But if you are upgrading, try uninstalling the old version first. It worked for me.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2007 1:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

saboya wrote:
I like Gentoo a lot. Before Gentoo I only tried out Debian, which is fine too but it doesn't suit me because it's too conservative, and I end up having to compile a lot of stuff. Since it's not a source-based distro, it's annoying to set up a compiling environment.

The only thing I really HAD to recompile/upgrade was netpbm .... But maybe I will find more ...

Quote:


freetype/internal/ftgloadr.h: No such file or directory


Code:

gentoo / # equery belongs /usr/include/freetype2/freetype/internal/ftgloadr.h
[ Searching for file(s) /usr/include/freetype2/freetype/internal/ftgloadr.h in *... ]
media-libs/freetype-2.1.10-r3 (/usr/include/freetype2/freetype/internal/ftgloadr.h)


The include file is missing or the ebuild cannot find it?
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2007 2:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have a question to all the "I am happy to get every day a new version of a package" people here:

Why do you need the newest and the most actual versions of your programs, please?

I am really curious, this is not a trolling question.

Because i know the "other side" where people use 15 year old programs AND (this is the logical operator here)
are productive and "happy" with it - as long as some person can be happy with a piece of software -.

In my opinion this "every day a new version" in Gentoo is the biggest flaw in this great distro.
Because there has to be a place where things - in our case here packages - have to be static to get more
stabilising on them. In all the software world this is the way things are developed, may it be the proprietary world,
may it be the free SW world. There is a dev branch of things - for experimenting - and then there is a stable
branch.

I read yesterday planet gentoo and from some days ago there was a post in which a dev wrote that he just "bumped a
version" of a package.

If I would go Monday to the people I work with and just tell them I had bumped the Version of z/OS up they would
literally kill me.

For me the "technology" of portage that someone can tweak the system literally down to the drivers is a very
interesting thing. In the business out there every SW - such as Baan, Tivoli and SAP - has to be very customizable:
But there is because of the proprietary nature a barrier where the customization has to stop. But Gentoo people
drove this barrier to the "eternety" : You can make all things custom what is in the system.
Great, really great.
But Baan, SAP, WebSphere and z/OS have a point where they are stable: They stay at this point of development and only
bug fixing occur. THIS is unfortunately not existing in Gentoo.

Just yesterday I untarred the stage3(the 2007.0 version) and portage for a "chroot installation" of Gentoo: Let's look what updates to really
important system packages he wants to make
Code:

emerge -pv system

These are the packages that would be merged, in order:

Calculating system dependencies... done!
[ebuild     U ] dev-lang/python-2.4.4-r4 [2.4.3-r4] USE="berkdb gdbm ncurses readline ssl -bootstrap -build -doc -examples% -ipv6* -nocxx -nothreads% -tk -ucs2" 7,976 kB
[ebuild  N    ] dev-util/pkgconfig-0.21-r1  USE="-hardened" 976 kB
[ebuild     U ] sys-apps/baselayout-1.12.9-r2 [1.12.9] USE="unicode -bootstrap -build -static (-ldap%)" 214 kB
[ebuild  N    ] dev-perl/Locale-gettext-1.05  8 kB
[ebuild     U ] app-arch/gzip-1.3.11 [1.3.5-r10] USE="nls -pic -static (-build%)" 422 kB
[ebuild     U ] sys-devel/flex-2.5.33-r2 [2.5.33-r1] USE="nls -static" 680 kB
[ebuild     U ] sys-apps/hdparm-6.9-r1 [6.6] 46 kB
[ebuild     U ] app-shells/bash-3.2_p15-r1 [3.1_p17] USE="nls -afs -bashlogger -vanilla" 2,518 kB
[ebuild     U ] sys-apps/findutils-4.3.4 [4.3.2-r1] USE="nls (-selinux) -static" 1,666 kB
[ebuild     U ] sys-apps/util-linux-2.12r-r7 [2.12r-r5] USE="crypt nls perl -old-crypt (-selinux) -static" 1,509 kB
[ebuild     U ] sys-libs/glibc-2.5-r3 [2.5] USE="nls nptl nptlonly -build -debug% -glibc-compat20 -glibc-omitfp (-hardened) (-multilib) -profile (-selinux)" 16,223 kB
[ebuild     U ] app-arch/bzip2-1.0.4 [1.0.3-r6] USE="-static (-build%)" 822 kB
[ebuild     U ] app-arch/tar-1.16.1 [1.16-r2] USE="nls -static" 1,752 kB
[ebuild     U ] sys-apps/man-1.6e-r3 [1.6d] USE="nls" 247 kB
[ebuild     U ] sys-devel/patch-2.5.9-r1 [2.5.9] USE="-build -static" 198 kB
[ebuild     U ] sys-process/psmisc-22.3 [22.2] USE="nls -X -ipv6* (-selinux)" 252 kB
[ebuild     U ] net-misc/rsync-2.6.9-r2 [2.6.9-r1] USE="acl -ipv6* -static -xinetd" 793 kB
[ebuild     U ] sys-apps/busybox-1.4.2 [1.2.2.1] USE="-debug -make-symlinks -savedconfig (-selinux) -static (-netboot%)" 1,475 kB
[ebuild     U ] app-arch/cpio-2.7-r1 [2.6-r5] USE="nls" 682 kB
[ebuild     U ] sys-devel/gcc-4.1.2 [4.1.1-r3] USE="fortran mudflap* nls (-altivec) -bootstrap -build -d% -doc -gcj -gtk (-hardened) (-ip28) (-ip32r10k) (-multilib) -multislot (-n32) (-n64) -nocxx -objc -objc++ -objc-gc -test -vanilla" 38,840 kB
[ebuild     U ] sys-process/procps-3.2.7 [3.2.6] USE="(-n32)" 276 kB
[ebuild     U ] sys-apps/gawk-3.1.5-r3 [3.1.5-r2] USE="nls" 2,257 kB
[ebuild     U ] sys-apps/file-4.21 [4.20-r1] USE="python" 538 kB
[ebuild     U ] sys-apps/net-tools-1.60-r13 [1.60-r12] USE="nls -static" 298 kB
[ebuild     U ] sys-libs/ncurses-5.6 [5.5-r3] USE="gpm unicode -bootstrap -build -debug -doc -minimal -nocxx -trace" 2,347 kB
[ebuild     U ] sys-devel/m4-1.4.9 [1.4.7] USE="nls -examples%" 596 kB
[ebuild     U ] app-editors/nano-2.0.4 [2.0.2] USE="ncurses nls unicode -debug -justify -minimal -slang -spell" 1,284 kB
[ebuild     U ] sys-devel/gnuconfig-20070118 [20060702] 40 kB
[ebuild     U ] sys-apps/debianutils-2.17.5 [2.17.4] USE="-static" 132 kB
[ebuild     U ] sys-fs/e2fsprogs-1.39-r2 [1.39] USE="nls -static" 3,609 kB
[ebuild     U ] sys-apps/man-pages-2.44 [2.42] USE="nls" 1,787 kB
[ebuild     U ] sys-libs/readline-5.2_p2 [5.1_p4] 1,993 kB
[ebuild  N    ] sys-apps/help2man-1.36.4  USE="nls" 84 kB
[ebuild  N    ] dev-libs/libpcre-6.6  USE="-doc" 545 kB
[ebuild  N    ] app-admin/python-updater-0.2  3 kB
[ebuild     U ] sys-apps/module-init-tools-3.2.2-r3 [3.2.2-r2] USE="-no-old-linux" 395 kB
[ebuild  NS   ] sys-devel/automake-1.9.6-r2  748 kB
[ebuild     U ] sys-apps/grep-2.5.1a-r1 [2.5.1-r8] USE="nls pcre%* -static (-build%)" 516 kB
[ebuild     U ] sys-apps/coreutils-6.7-r1 [6.4] USE="acl nls (-selinux) -static -xattr%" 5,223 kB

Total: 39 packages (33 upgrades, 5 new, 1 in new slot), Size of downloads: 99,948 k


WTF is the sense to update glibc from one day to another, please?

All the distros out there - including Debian - which are used in the business have stable branches.

When Gentoo will get a stable branch then more people just out from business reasons will
develop for Gentoo and it will get better and better.


My humble 0.02$
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2007 2:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

metacircular-evaluator wrote:
There is a dev branch of things - for experimenting - and then there is a stable branch.

And Gentoo has stable, unstable, and masked versions. And an overlay. So we get to choose what we put on our machines. We can use Gentoo to create whatever mix of package versions we want.

Gentoo is not a normal distro. It is one step up from being Linux From Scratch. It isn't Debian Stable and doesn't pretend to be. It is what you make of it. Which of course takes effort.
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red-wolf76
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2007 6:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

metacircular-evaluator wrote:
I have a question to all the "I am happy to get every day a new version of a package" people here:

Why do you need the newest and the most actual versions of your programs, please?

snip

Well, for one reason, you may need functionality that you know exists in the ~arch version, but not in the stable one. Second, you may feel that, even though a certain package is still in ~arch and for reasons of frequent upstream updates will probably remain so with its semi-current versions for the forseeable future, you can safely emerge them, provided the devs taking care of it are actively updating the ebuilds to accommodate upstream and not much gets changed there.
Third, if everyone were to happily use a 1.2 linux kernel and similarly old software, I guess all the testing, bug-reporting and hardware support development that gets done were to grind to a shrieking, shuddering halt. I know that's sort of a slippery-slope argument, but hey, if a lot of people test a given package, chances are that a correlation to the amount of bug reports is going to show.

The Debian stable branch may be exactly that. Rock solid stable software with a proven track-record. It is also biga55-conservative and - to some - plain boring, I guess. For some people who trust a server with large amounts of their money-making business, boring and conservative are good! These people also are unlikely to buy exotic hardware that is not well-supported in the most recent kernel. And according to the old saying that a good horse shouldn't jump any higher than it absolutely has to, it is sufficient to plug security holes until you can take the time and make major updates.

I'm by no means a cross-distro linux expert, but I've a feeling that, without the more "adventurous" bleeding-edge distros such as Gentoo, distros such as debian would be hard-pressed to churn out major revisions, even at the relatively convenient rate at which they do. Red Hat even distinctly designates Fedora as their "test-bed", if I'm not mistaken. So comparing one to the other, while they're both fruit, would amount to comparing apples to oranges.
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