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nirax
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Joined: 06 Jul 2004
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Location: Germany, old Europe
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 Posted: Tue Apr 10, 2007 10:36 pm Post subject: |
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Sure, I've come around few broken ebuilds or compiles, few bad syncs that needed repeating, but still, no major issues. I have about 900 packages on my system, I use '--depclean', revdep-rebuild, Java, masked packages, few packages from unstable (~) branch, gees, I have about 500 lines in my /etc/portage customization files, and everything still works perfectly. |
im a big fan of your last sentence.
makes me fully understand randy_waterhouse motivation when he quit gentoo. (you actually made some funny qutes also in his thread).
Here is why i think i will quit and why i quote you there.
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Last edited by nirax on Wed Apr 11, 2007 12:02 am; edited 1 time in total |
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davidgurvich
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| Posted: Tue Apr 10, 2007 10:46 pm Post subject: |
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| I've noticed a decrease in the quality of ebuilds. By that I mean the ebuild itself. I can take the source untar, configure, make, and make install with no problem. But the ebuild fails for some reason. Most recently I had an ebuild fail because the patches needed for the prioir version were applied upstream and not necessary anymore. |
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jstead1
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Location: Oswego, NY where the snow is deep
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| Posted: Tue Apr 10, 2007 11:33 pm Post subject: |
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I try some other distros, and I always stick with gentoo. I can make gentoo do what I want it to do. I don't have to re-install it to upgrade. They don't "improve" the developers work on others projects. ( I just installed kubuntu, for some reason they decided to delete the Window menu from konqueror. Now how do I split the window? Why do they do this?)
The documentation is first rate (hey, even I could follow it). The forums are excellent.
I really didn't appreciate the beauty of the concept of automating the building from sources. As for portage being slow, I do the sync with a cron job, so I don't care if it is slow. When I sit down to do some work, and I figure its time for an update, I do an emerge -uDav, and go about my work. After a few minutes, I check it to see if it is worth it to do an update, or if it might be a bit time consuming (like a major revision of gcc).
Other linux users ask me "but don't updates take forever" and I say, it doesn't matter, I just go on working. They say, but what about an xorg update, don't you have to stop the xorg server, and I say, no why would you have to do something like that.
I sure wouldn't recommend gentoo to someone who doesn't want to learn, or someone who thinks they already know everything, but for me, it is the best solution out there.
A big shout out to all you gentoo devs, and to drobbins who got the ball rolling!
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erm67
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Joined: 01 Nov 2005
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Location: EU
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| Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2007 8:47 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Here is why i think i will quit and why i quote you there. |
I read your post and I think the main point is that you | Quote: | | have no time at all for this hassle. |
a good point but as your signature says | Quote: | | quod licet iovi non licet bovi |
so maybe others do have some spare time to spend on their gentoo. What disturbed me more was etc-update, now I switched to cfp-update and it seems to work as expected. As for the overall quality being lower lately you are probably right but not to the point of being not enjoyable, and if an ebuild doesn't work today just --skipfirst and retry tomorrow it will probably do (btw. when this happens look in the Changelog which dev updated it last and you will encounter recurring names  . | Quote: | | Having emerge blockers, unresolved dependencies and so on are not that kind of tweaking stuff im still interested in |
So it looks like you are not interested at all in gentoo, what makes you think the Ubuntu way of installing and upgrading things will interest you? In the gentoo forums you can always find how to deal with blockers or other emerge problems but you can bet you will simply have to unmerge the blocker and continue emerge.
I installed Gentoo to a compiler-impaired collegue and he used it for several years simply reading the docs and the forums, he eventually switched to fedora "because compiling takes too much time" and now recognizes that many things worked definitely better with gentoo. |
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nirax
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Joined: 06 Jul 2004
Posts: 319
Location: Germany, old Europe
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| Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2007 6:16 pm Post subject: |
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I read your post and I think the main point is that you
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have no time at all for this hassle.
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do you have time for this hassle ? do you really have time for problems you are not up to ?
If you spend your time on computer, do you want to code what you like to, or do you want to fix/tweak/search for solution/ on problems that should not be occuring ?
iE: If you are up going to your hobby room to build a cool wooden ship model after work, would you enjoy it having to fix the stairs leading to your hobby room first because the craftsmen didnt do quality work and the stairs are breaking ?
| Quote: | a good point but as your signature says
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quod licet iovi non licet bovi |
so maybe others do have some spare time to spend on their gentoo.
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Spare hobbist time ? No problem with that. Than gentoo has to just retarget its product definition as stated in my text.
Clear product definition : no wrong assumption / expectations
But do you really think a requirement of using gentoo is "to spend some spare time on their gentoo" ?
How much is "some" How much should "some" be ?
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So it looks like you are not interested at all in gentoo
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Thats very true. Im not interested in gentoo. Im not interested in Ubuntu, nor Windows nor Access Linux Platform for embedded Systems, nor Palm OS nor any other operating system in general.
Im interested beeing able to find my requirements optimal covered through the usage of a specific operating system.
Are you interested in Coca-Cola ? Or do you just want to be refreshed and satifsy a need/requirement.
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In the gentoo forums you can always find how to deal with blockers or other emerge problems but you can bet you will simply have to unmerge the blocker and continue emerge.
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that is very true. The forums were always very helpful and are state of art. The current builds and product quality is not however.
What would the world say of windows if after having it not updated 1 month the upgrade would break.
Bad quality. Or ?
And Open Source is not the equivalent to bad quality.
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Last edited by nirax on Wed Apr 11, 2007 9:10 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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erm67
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Joined: 01 Nov 2005
Posts: 653
Location: EU
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| Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2007 7:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | do you have time for this hassle ? do you really have time for problems you are not up to ?
If you spend your time on computer, do you want to code what you like to, or do you want to fix/tweak/search for solution/ on problems that should not be occuring ? |
Were we talking about bad ebuilds that fails while upgrading a perfectly working app from version z.x to version z.y? Why not simply ignore this deprecable fact and continue using the perfectly working version z.x until some one fixes it?
Just try to remember the last time you could not work / code what you wanted / whatever BECAUSE you emerged an ebuild to upgrade something and it did not worked. Maybe you could not work because you were distracted by the error and tried to fix it but not because the error happened (the fact that anjuta 2 took so long to be included in portage counts only as a minor disturbance).
| Quote: | Spare hobbist time ? No problem with that. Than gentoo has to just retarget its product definition as stated in my text.
Clear product definition : no wrong assumption / expectations |
Well I do not want to seem ironical but the idea of installing Gentoo at work never crossed my mind, I still remember the face of a T-Online system programmer when I told him I was using gentoo at home. Anyway some did and some were disappointed, as you told in your other post, what do they pretend? that a bunch of (perfectly respectable) hobbist turned developers do your work? As far as I know nobody besides you gets payed for that.
The about page says that:
| Quote: | What is Gentoo?
Gentoo is a free operating system based on either Linux or FreeBSD that CAN be automatically optimized and customized for just about any application or need. Extreme configurability, performance and a top-notch user and developer community are all hallmarks of the Gentoo experience.
Thanks to a technology called Portage, Gentoo CAN become an ideal secure server, development workstation, professional desktop, gaming system, embedded solution or something else -- whatever you need it to be. Because of its near-unlimited adaptability, we call Gentoo a metadistribution. |
so they never promised it would be "automatically optimized and customized" but that it CAN be.
| Quote: | But do you really think a requirement of using gentoo is "to spend some spare time on their gentoo" ?
How much is "some" How much should "some" be ? |
Again it is implied in the fact that it "CAN be automatically optimized and customized" that you have to spend some time on it to reach an optimal status.
| Quote: | | Im interested beeing able to do the particular task optimal with the specific operating system. |
Except for the security updates on a web server server totally exposed on the internet (bad idea anyway), what are the tasks you mean for which a typo error in the ebuild updating a perfectly working app from version z.x to version z.y or the long time it takes before killer app xxxx gets upgraded from version z.x to version z.y degrades the entire OS to non optimal?
| Quote: | | that is very true. The forums were always very helpful and are state of art. The current builds and product quality is not however. |
Yes I admit it could be better, but it still offers a lot compared to the other non-sponsored (like debian) and non-commercial (like fedora suse mandriva ubuntu) distributions. I hope it survives the bad moment and that it remains free and more and more hobbists with spare time turn to unpaid developer and improve it.
| Quote: | | What would the world say of windows if after having it not updated 1 month the upgrade would break. |
hahahahaha It is exactly for this reason that many admins first downloads the updates from Windows Update on a spare machine, tests them and than put the working ones on an internal server and let the workstations automatically update from there.
Last edited by erm67 on Wed Apr 11, 2007 8:07 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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jonnevers
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Joined: 02 Jan 2003
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Location: Gentoo64 land
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| Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2007 7:57 pm Post subject: |
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| nirax wrote: | | Are you interested in Coca-Cola ? Or do you just want to be refreshed and satifsy [sic] a need/requirement. |
I'm interesting in Coca-Cola and will go out of my way to get it instead of Pepsi. Thats *my* opinion.
I didn't read everything you wrote because quite frankly multiple quote blocks intermixed with your (you being anyone's not you specifically) replies is rather annoying to read but I think I caught the gist. It boils down to "Gentoo requires too much time".
but thats no secret. Gentoo has always been a developer's OS (at least from my perspective) rather then a strictly user-oriented OS such as Ubuntu or uhm Linspire, for example.
complaining about the time required for Gentoo, seems so passe to me... |
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nomuus
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Joined: 10 Apr 2007
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| Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2007 8:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | It boils down to "Gentoo requires too much time". |
YES, especially if you want to get your system fine tuned to high expectations. There is plenty of documentation and user support, so new users should not be intimidated. I just started using Gentoo a few months ago and I have only a few minor complaints, but what these complaints ultimately boil down to is my impatience. Gentoo is a great OS and I do not plan on leaving it. Portage is great -- it definitely faster and easier than the ./configure method. This would explain why new users are leaving. Seasoned Gentoo users could be leaving because they found something else that better suits their wants and needs, same goes for developers.
Then again, there is no way to know why people are leaving. Word on the streets says lack of respect; though this is common with lots of things. Perhaps a lack of understanding? Same situation; it is common with other things. The Internet is like reality in most respects. Feuding, warring, hating, loving, caring, sharing, growing... uniting / dividing ...you get the idea. This however is grounds for a completely different topic. I don't think people leaving is anything against Gentoo. Gentoo is just the common interest that brings the people together. As silly as it sounds, it makes sense that people would resent Gentoo for the actions of others. It brought them together as a group, so logically it could split them apart. The world of computing is past due for a code of ethics; perhaps we should emerge --sync with reality. |
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nirax
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Location: Germany, old Europe
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| Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2007 8:53 pm Post subject: |
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@erm67 somewhere in italy:
| Quote: | | Quote: |
Clear product definition : no wrong assumption / expectations
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Well I do not want to seem ironical but the idea of installing Gentoo at work never crossed my mind. Anyway some did and some were disappointed, as you told in your other post, what do they pretend? that a bunch of (perfectly respectable) hobbist turned developers do your work? As far as I know nobody besides you gets payed for that.
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i get that you are doing some funny sarcasm there. Thanks.
Gentoo was not chosen out of hobbist excitement but the choice using gentoo on test-servers at work was made after carefully checking requirements.
Gentoo fitted best (as source-based distribution) to meet the requirements of the stakeholders which required specific test-setups for Operator Testing while altering kernel and util parts especially regarding protocol layers.
Afterwards it turned out that while the first goal was reached, the servers took too much time to maintain. Some of them even stopped pulling any package after profile update and not have beein updated for some time.
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The about page says that:
What is Gentoo? ... quotes about CAN..
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Ok i see no big problem with your quote.
If it CAN be configured doing it, if it CAN be configured working, than it MUST work afterwards. Thats what the mentioned "Automation" is good for afterall (First sentence in your quoted text).
Btw did you also read the philosophy page ? It says:
We have all experienced situations where tools seem to be imposing their respective wills on us. This is backwards, and contrary to the Gentoo philosophy.
Put another way, the Gentoo philosophy is to create better tools. When a tool is doing its job perfectly, you might not even be very aware of its presence, because it does not interfere and make its presence known, nor does it force you to interact with it when you don't want it to. The tool serves the user rather than the user serving the tool.
The goal of Gentoo is to strive to create near-ideal tools. Tools that can accommodate the needs of many different users all with divergent goals. Don't you love it when you find a tool that does exactly what you want to do? Doesn't it feel great? Our mission is to give that sensation to as many people as possible.
Daniel Robbins
Previous Chief Architect
I think Daniel Robbins had a clear product statement when he was still in charge.
But thats old stuff now.
Quote:
Im interested beeing able to do the particular task optimal with the specific operating system.
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Except for the security updates on a web server server totally exposed on the internet (bad idea anyway), what are the tasks .............. degrades the entire OS to non optimal? |
not fullfilling basic user requirements:
- that basic tools work when they should not imply any hassle.
- this directly implies that: general product quality went down.
afterall is no big surprise. Gentoo council is determining several ways how to introduce processes and raise quality. So maybe it will work out. I wonder how it worked in the past though.
to compare with coke: when im drinking it and it is not refreshing, my need/requirement is not fullfilled.
| Quote: | | I hope it survives the bad moment and that it remains free and more and more hobbists with spare time turn to unpaid developer and improve it. |
no objections at all on this one
@jonnyevers:
regarding intermixed quotes, thanks for notification. i fixed it.
jonny you say as "complaining about the time required for Gentoo, seems so passe to me..."
also you think gentoo is mostly a developer os. however the real developer base actively developing gentoo is going down.
gentoo is a hoobist OS not a developer os. thats mostly the difference.
As your location is Gentoo64 land you may not have already noticed it
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jonnevers
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Joined: 02 Jan 2003
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Location: Gentoo64 land
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| Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2007 9:29 pm Post subject: |
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| nirax wrote: | | however the real developer base actively developing gentoo is going down. |
says you, care to substantiate your point? I think it's an insult to the developers Gentoo *does* have to make such a comment without completely qualifying it with non-anecdotal evidence. I just don't see how this comment is timely, perhaps several weeks ago when the real trouble was actually happening but not now.
I'm really interested in what your thoughts are in a truncated form, it seems to me that they are:
1. too much time involved, in general
2. production systems require too much maintainence
3. tools are inadequate? you really need to provide examples here, if this is true
4. Gentoo development base is declining |
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erm67
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Joined: 01 Nov 2005
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Location: EU
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| Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2007 10:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | i get that you are doing some funny sarcasm there. Thanks. |
Sorry did not intended to be offensive.
| Quote: | | Some of them even stopped pulling any package after profile update and not have beein updated for some time. |
That happened a couple of times to me it seem strange that configure says:
checking for i686-pc-linux-gnu-gcc... i686-pc-linux-gnu-gcc
and gcc-config lists
i386-pc-linux-gnu-3.3.3
so apparently someone changed the CHOST from i386 to i686 or upgraded gcc without following the procedure described in the howto. Both common problems and in fact your emerge info says that CHOST="i686-pc-linux-gnu".
Your was definitely a user error, the server was not properly maintained and thus did not worked as expected. Or you want to blame the gentoo developer because you changed the CHOST in your make.conf without updating the entire system? I would instead fire the admin
| Quote: | I think Daniel Robbins had a clear product statement when he was still in charge.
But thats old stuff now. |
probably |
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Syntaxis
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Joined: 28 Apr 2002
Posts: 511
Location: London, UK
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| Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2007 8:20 am Post subject: |
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| nirax wrote: | | I think Daniel Robbins had a clear product statement when he was still in charge. But thats old stuff now. |
Note how Gentoo's "Becoming a developer" procedure has no equivalent of the Debian New Maintainer process's Philosophy checks. Assuming the information on that page is actually accurate, it would seem that new Gentoo developers don't even have to promise to abide by the Social Contract, let alone Daniel Robbins' original vision.
Perhaps this is deliberate, as in the case of the Code of Conduct:
| Code of Conduct wrote: | | By joining and/or participating in the Gentoo community, you are stating that you accept and agree to adhere to the rules listed below, even if you do not explicitly state so. |
This approach seems pretty daft to me; why not just state such requirements explicitly? It seems rather duplicitous (or just incredibly lazy - take your pick) not to mention the actual requirements for becoming a developer on the "Becoming a developer" page... Or is it just me?
EDIT: On second thought, while my point still stands, "duplicitous" is a tad harsh. That's what comes of posting in the early morning while still grizzly and cranky before coffee...
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theMerge
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Joined: 01 Sep 2005
Posts: 158
Location: Little Elm, TX
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| Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2007 3:53 am Post subject: |
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Oh God... just so we are clear GENTOO IS NOT A CLOSED SYSTEM.
There are two kinds of distros. Closed system distros like Fedora and Ubuntu that keep tight control of what packages are available, and meta distros like Gentoo that do not impose such constraints. (You could call linux from sratch a third type if you really wanted to.)
Gentoo's quality is not and will never be in a STATIC state. Since it's a meta distro and none of the constraints of release cycle distros apply, none of the stability constraints can be applied either. Ubuntu keeps the same major version of packages and just does bugfixes on them unless they are FORCED do to a back port. This means things stay stable. You don't introduce any new kinks into the system and the system stays kink free.
Gentoo continuously updates packages. Not everything is bleeding edge (thank God), but everything stays fairly current. With all these changes constantly happening there is NO WAY for even the most proficient of developers to know all the implications of a change he/she makes. Things will, not might, will break. They are usually quickly fixed.
So why does this matter you ask? Ubuntu works best when you don't tweak it. Make no changes and things will be fine. Gentoo is amazingly flexible. You can change things, tweak things, use crap from other distros, install UNRECOMMENDED software using the standard install method with only a few well documented tweaks (package.unmask), make your own ebuilds, use overlays for unstable software not in portage, or just leave well enough alone and stick with the stock stuff. AND THE BLASTED THING KEEPS WORKING! You can't do that with Fedora, Ubuntu, openSUSE, or any other release cycle distro I know of without SIGNIFICANT knowledge of how things work... UNLESS YOU INSTALL PORTAGE! WHICH YOU CAN DO! With Gentoo a part time nerd like myself can get things working quite nicely and how I want them to with the gentoo docs, forums, and google... no formal training or obsessive personal education required.
If you want a closed system, GENTOO IS NOT FOR YOU. Ubuntu is largely a closed system. Gentoo is not. It's as wide open to change and flexibility as I've seen in a distro.
And finally my point for this ramble: don't ask for a static Gentoo. It's an open system, not a closed one. If you want a closed system that won't surprise you from time to time. Go with Ubuntu, Fedora, or openSUSE... they are what you want. We here want what Gentoo is: an open and flexible system.
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drwook
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| Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2007 6:46 am Post subject: |
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| theMerge wrote: |
And finally my point for this ramble: don't ask for a static Gentoo. It's an open system, not a closed one. If you want a closed system that won't surprise you from time to time. Go with Ubuntu, Fedora, or openSUSE... they are what you want. We here want what Gentoo is: an open and flexible system. |
Well, if anyone really wants a static gentoo, why don't they just alias 'emerge --sync' to 'echo No, you don't want to do that', or unmerge portage, or just mask all the versions above whatever's marked stable as of <arbitrary date>, or maintain a local overlay with everything you need in and never touch the main tree, or exclude everything you don't want touched from the rsync, or never run an 'emerge -u {system|world}' but just do packages manually when you *need* the new version. I've probably missed some other methods but it's early.
People forget the META, or just don't understand it... |
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erm67
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Joined: 01 Nov 2005
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Location: EU
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| Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2007 9:38 am Post subject: |
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| theMerge wrote: | | If you want a closed system, GENTOO IS NOT FOR YOU. Ubuntu is largely a closed system. Gentoo is not. It's as wide open to change and flexibility as I've seen in a distro. |
Any operating system requires some tweaking or periodical reinstalls, gentoo has fewer automated procedures than other distro but many well written howto. Any operating system (M$ too) need to solve problems like compiler upgrade, important library updates, or change the compiler target, they do that by reinstalling the OS, every new release of Ubuntu, Fedora or Debian is based on updated major libraries and/or a new gcc. This is maybe 'hassle free' for someone if they do not consider a hassle this periodical reinstalling with all the problems they carry. So a lot of things remains static from release to release in most OS with gentoo instead updates are gradually and continuously introduced in the existing system. Major updates need to be done from time to time without a reinstall and for someone this could be challenging to perform without proper indications, fortunately there are many howto guiding step to step.
| theMerge wrote: | | And finally my point for this ramble: don't ask for a static Gentoo. It's an open system, not a closed one. If you want a closed system that won't surprise you from time to time. Go with Ubuntu, Fedora, or openSUSE... they are what you want. We here want what Gentoo is: an open and flexible system. |
I would add: "and please RTFM", or the more educated form: "Gentoo openness and flexibility requires the users to do some reading and a bit of manual work to ensure it will continue to work optimally as the time goes by".
| nirax wrote: | Gentoo was not chosen out of hobbist excitement but the choice using gentoo on test-servers at work was made after carefully checking requirements.
Gentoo fitted best (as source-based distribution) to meet the requirements of the stakeholders which required specific test-setups for Operator Testing while altering kernel and util parts especially regarding protocol layers.
Afterwards it turned out that while the first goal was reached, the servers took too much time to maintain. Some of them even stopped pulling any package after profile update and not have beein updated for some time. |
What really disturbes me in the discussion with nirax is that he presents himself as the analyst of a big bucks company that choose gentoo to run on several servers for a multimillion project and is unsatisfied because they stopped working at once when the company sysadm put their hands on them.
Reading the information about the problem he posted in another thread it is obvious that the server were installed with CHOST=i386* and later this was changed to CHOST=i686* without updating the toolchain. "Thus gentoo sucks".
Well I worked many many years in data-centers around Europe and what I can say is that if this is the truth than there is something wrong with his company: as the analyst for the project he forgot to provide proper training for the sysadm, or they did not accepted this alien OS in their "serverraum", or the whole story is a bit exaggerated.
It is acceptable that a user is not being able to upgrade the system not that an important well funded project sinks or has troubles for a problem like this, and plainly incredible is that after the sysadms could not solve this simple problem (I immagine) they call the responsible analyst in his office at the 13th floor and what does he do? he comes down yelling at the sysadms and saying "You idiots, I take care of this!" then posts the question in a public forum and not having got an answer in a timely manner starts bitching everybody saying that he, his girlfriend and his company will never again use gentoo because it is "not fullfilling the basic user requirements".
I wonder how often he finds the tyres of his car cut I could never work for a company like that but I know there are some. |
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Syntaxis
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Joined: 28 Apr 2002
Posts: 511
Location: London, UK
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| Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2007 11:42 am Post subject: |
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| erm67 wrote: | | Any operating system (M$ too) need to solve problems like compiler upgrade, important library updates, or change the compiler target, they do that by reinstalling the OS, every new release of Ubuntu, Fedora or Debian is based on updated major libraries and/or a new gcc. This is maybe 'hassle free' for someone if they do not consider a hassle this periodical reinstalling with all the problems they carry. |
Erm... Just for the record, this isn't true. Whilst Fedora still recommends a reinstall between releases, Debian and Ubuntu fully support in-place live upgrades.
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erm67
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Location: EU
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| Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2007 12:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Syntaxis wrote: |
Erm... Just for the record, this isn't true. Whilst Fedora still recommends a reinstall between releases, Debian and Ubuntu fully support in-place live upgrades. |
You can do it in-place with yum also since fedora core-4 I think but it does not work well I spent a night on a server trying this trick, and it is a complete reinstall anyway, I mean usually 90% or more of the packages are reinstalled, if you are lucky your customizations are retained and most third party packages no longer works etc. etc. etc..
What I mean is that they prepare a complete new release based i.e. on libc8 with LigthnigFastThreads, linux 3.0, and compiled with gcc 5.7 test it as a whole and at some point decide it is time for everybody to upgrade and they provide an automated way of doing that.
With gentoo such changes are introduced gradually I recompiled everything some time ago with gcc4 but I think it is still possible have gcc3 as the main compiler, the user can choose between a ntpl or non ntpl system. You can't choose that with Debian or Ubuntu.
BTW I think I have seen this message since gentoo 1.4:
| Code: |
localhost ~ # emaint
usage: emaint [options] all | world
Currently emaint can only check and fix problems with one's world
file. Future versions will integrate other portage check-and-fix
tools and provide a single interface to system health checks. |
I think it is maybe slowly time for this future version to come at least a partial automatic system health check should be implemented, it would probably reduce the number of similar complaints. |
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batistuta
Veteran
Joined: 29 Jul 2005
Posts: 1384
Location: Aachen
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| Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2007 12:45 pm Post subject: |
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I think the relevant observation in this whole thread is that the quality of the ebuilds has degraded a bit. Fine. Let the kind volunteer userrep take note, pass the message to devs, and hope they double check ebuilds a bit more in the future. I'm sure they are aware of that and will lay out a plan.
The rest of the discussion, if Gentoo is or not for someone is just reinventing the wheel. Have we just discovered that Gentoo is time consuming? That Gentoo is not for everyone? That Compiling from source is not really faster than using bins?
Gentoo is not for you, fine. Go to Ubuntu. It's a great distro. Not either? Goto Windows XP, in my opinion another great OS and best option for many people (if you put other factors in the balance like easyness and SW availabily). Not good? Get a Mac, another great OS if you can afford it.
Just pick *your* choice, thank everyone for their time, and move on with life. But telling us how Gentoo is and that it doesn't fit *you* is just a waste of everyone's time. No one goes to every distro's forum around to complain about why their distro is not for him. This is unconstructive.  |
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Syntaxis
Guru
Joined: 28 Apr 2002
Posts: 511
Location: London, UK
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| Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2007 3:59 pm Post subject: |
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| erm67 wrote: | What I mean is that they prepare a complete new release based i.e. on libc8 with LigthnigFastThreads, linux 3.0, and compiled with gcc 5.7 test it as a whole and at some point decide it is time for everybody to upgrade and they provide an automated way of doing that.
With gentoo such changes are introduced gradually I recompiled everything some time ago with gcc4 but I think it is still possible have gcc3 as the main compiler, the user can choose between a ntpl or non ntpl system. You can't choose that with Debian or Ubuntu. |
I don't know enough in detail about Ubuntu to comment on their setup, but as far as Debian's concerned:
1) If you want incremental software version bumps, you would use Testing or Unstable instead of a stable release;
2) The current stable release (Etch) contains gcc 2.95 as well as gcc 3.3; and
3) Etch allows one to choose between NPTL and linuxthreads.
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erm67
l33t
Joined: 01 Nov 2005
Posts: 653
Location: EU
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| Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2007 4:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | 1) If you want incremental software version bumps, you would use Testing or Unstable instead of a stable release; |
Yes but all packages in a release will be linked against the same major release of glibc (and a few other basic libs), it is of course theoretically possible install more than one version of it and have some packages compiled against one versions and others compiled against the other but that would mean having both libraries loaded in memory at the same time a waste of memory and probably a lot of other bad things would happen.
| Quote: | | 2) The current stable release (Etch) contains gcc 2.95 as well as gcc 3.3; and |
Also gcc-4.1.It offers more compilers I know but against which one is it compiled? With older gcc it not important but at some point libgcc.a become libgcc_s.so and some executables are dinamically linked to a compiler specific version of this library, again it is a good idea to compile the entire release with the same version of gcc. Particularly c++ programs and libraries are nasty.
| Quote: | | 3) Etch allows one to choose between NPTL and linuxthreads. |
But it doesn't offer you the possibility of a system linked against >=glibc_2.4 it seems This post shows clearly that the entire Etch is compiled against the same glibc as I said. |
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nirax
Guru
Joined: 06 Jul 2004
Posts: 319
Location: Germany, old Europe
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| Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2007 10:10 pm Post subject: |
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@jonnevers
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I think it's an insult to the developers Gentoo *does* have to make such a comment without completely qualifying it with non-anecdotal evidence. I just don't see how this comment is timely, perhaps several weeks ago when the real trouble was actually happening but not now. |
exatly what i am refering to. check the GWN dev adds 2004 to the project and compare with 2007. i see a different picture. the momentum seems lost.
@erm67
who excuses for a personal attack just to start the next.
while i think you are right on the CHOST issue of that server (which btw not even a dev could answer in the forum, but thats not a Gentoo issue anyway) i think you generally have a problem with any critic on Gentoo, your OS of choice. A crtic which was asked for in the original thread i posted it by a (although retired) Dev to help Devs understand why one would switch to another distribution.
What does it bring it to you, to attack anyone posting suggestions to Gentoo. Did i made an unasked rant of? Not that i see.
| Quote: |
he comes down yelling at the sysadms and saying "You idiots, I take care of this!" then posts the question in a public forum and not having got an answer in a timely manner starts bitching everybody saying that he, his girlfriend and his company will never again use gentoo because it is "not fullfilling the basic user requirements". |
Regarding the server story its quite simple:
- in my time as test engineer we installed gentoo on test-servers with the help of the sys-admins in that time. everything worked fine.
- i left from test to dev
- the servers were than passed under the responsability of the sys-administration while test remained responsible for the test-tools.
- sys-administration was mostly outsourced was new to gentoo tried to upgrade stuff, and wrote also to me if i could remember how to resolve some issues because i was involved in the original project.
- shomewhere between the last steps the CHOST error was introduced.
- i wrote in the forum (1 year ago btw, my "mail" is no reaction in getting no useful reply at that time)
- i could not answer sys-admin question + i gave reply it seems to be a gentoo issue
- they did some investigation and changed the systems and it works now again. not all machines had that error but they generally complained that it was "too hard" to maintain that kind of gentoo-server system.
- all were updated to debian
- servers work to my knowledge again since months
@Syntaxis
the quote about the code of conduct was very interesting.
Thanks for the information.
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desultory
Bodhisattva
Joined: 04 Nov 2005
Posts: 9410
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| Posted: Sat Apr 14, 2007 5:50 am Post subject: |
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| Just to note; the process for modifying the setting of CHOST on a Gentoo system is documented in "Changing the CHOST variable". |
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Ateo
Advocate
Joined: 02 Jun 2003
Posts: 2021
Location: Republic of California
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| Posted: Sat Apr 14, 2007 9:15 am Post subject: |
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I think both bloat AND slim systems have their place in our world.. Allow me to explain...
Linux is in my blood since 1997.. Don't ask me what attracted me to is because I don't remember. But it was at a time in my life in which I was re-discovering computers having been expose to them, early in life, starting with the Vic 20. My first exposure to the 'new' internet was AOL 2.0 (maybe 3.0) on my chick friend's brand new HP 33 in 1995 running the brand new Win 95 OS... oh boy.. Anyways, whatever.. side tracked....
I discovered Gentoo in 2003 and have been loyal to it, for both servers and desktops/notebooks. However, Gentoo on notebooks leave much to be desired, well, as of last weekend to be exact....
As a desktop user. I like bloat (fuck flux, xfce, etc... GIMME GNOME/KDE!!!!). In fact, I've got 2GB of ram on my laptop just for my eye candy. I flip flop between KDE and Gnome every time I get mad at one. It's a nice system because the flop usually happens every 2 years giving the other desktop time to evolve...
Anyways, on Gentoo, to be running the late and great, you have to mix ~x86 into your system.. ewwwww. It's like smoking. You're either a smoker or NOT a smoker. I dislike mixing x86 with ~x86 on my laptop that I use for daily work just to have KDE3.5.6 within a week of it's release.... But, I adapted and dealt with issues as they arose. But this last weekend, baselayout broke my wireless..... And, tired of the troubleshoot proccess, I said fuck it, ventured to internet land, searched Ubuntu to see what the big farty stink was all about..... downloaded the ISO of the new Feisty Fawn and less than 2 hours later i had a completely functional laptop. With as unforgiving as linux is, it's nice to be able to fall back on an install disc that works. I just about shit my pants when my install on my HP DV 5000 took 30 minutes and rebooted without a single fart/burp/glitch. To me, a long time linux user, that is impressive and much anticipated. From the linux on my desktops/notebooks perspective, I do believe I'll be switching to the Ubuntu way. It's just works and takes 30 minutes. I'm experienced enough to clean out the bloat.
From the linux on my servers perspective, I'm not sure where Gentoo is in my future. To be honest, I am an experienced Linux user that, binary based or not, I can do what I need. If something just can't be satisfied with apt-get [or whatever package manager], I can just compile it myself, package it accordingly and install it with the package manager to keep it consistant... What attracted me to Gentoo in the first place was Portage, but it's a package manager just like apt-get, only it configures, builds and installs from source unlike simply installing binaries. I was using Mandrake 7.0 series at the time of my switch.
I'm not a teen nor a 20 something to spend my days/nights waiting for php to recompile because I need <_mystery_x_> feature. I'd rather have the pre-compiled 'bloated' version where the install/upgrade time is the length of the download.
.....
I am responsible for over a dozen servers scattered throughout the west coast. 11 of them are Gentoo. I've just downloaded the ISO for Ubuntu 'Server Edition' and am prepping my development box for a clean slate to test this ISO. It'll be interesting to see how it works and what I decide. But whatever right?? =P
In the end, Gentoo is a great hobbyist distribution. But you need to devote a lot of time to learn it but once you learn it, it's cake walk. I believe Gentoo is a powerful tool. It's not for everyone. For some, it is a great stepping stone. For others, it's a dangerous tool. For the rest, well, the rest are the ones that have 3 year solid Gentoo servers with 6 month uptimes... =) |
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erm67
l33t
Joined: 01 Nov 2005
Posts: 653
Location: EU
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| Posted: Sat Apr 14, 2007 9:26 am Post subject: |
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| nirax wrote: |
What does it bring it to you, to attack anyone posting suggestions to Gentoo. Did i made an unasked rant of? Not that i see.
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Well a was a bit rude maybe and my little dramatization of the server story was indeed meant to be funny but you continued to theatrically make unsubstantiated claims about "problems that should not be occuring" and I was curious to know what terrible problems you had had before.
Read your reaction to my simple affirmation that "if you don't have spare time for gentoo others maybe has" to find who started ranting and being aggressive. I was not personally attacking you but trying to understand your point of view. (the word "you" can be used indifferently for "du" or "ihr")
| Quote: |
Regarding the server story its quite simple:
.....
- i could not answer sys-admin question + i gave reply it seems to be a gentoo issue
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So my guess about what happened wasn't that wrong. I am certainly not going to tell your company how should they run a data-center, but that is the kind of story I heard of many times in the past. Besides now I will probably upset many hardcore gentoo fans. In fact I use Gentoo only on 1 system: my pc at home.
At work we run Solaris or RHEL with a support contract on the most important servers, and lately a few mac os X server, the test servers are Solaris x86 fedora or debian.
I personally insisted with the direction that we buy the RHEL and a support contract with RedHat networks because having linux servers doesn't necessary mean that ALL the responsibility for them is left to the sysadms or support forums run by hobbists (as you put it). The point is that we are making money out of the linux servers and pretending that the forementioned hobbists fix them for free only to our advantage didn't seemed just to me. YMMV of course. I also tried to obtain RedHat and Solaris certifications for the people working there but were too expensive.
Of course there isn't a commercial version of gentoo and even if you had the money you can not have your sysadms Gentoo certified. Does that mean gentoo is an hobbists system? No it means that the sysadms/analysts deploying it in a production environment have full responsibility for them.
I try to get this discussion back in track (this is GENTOO CHATter anyway):
| Quote: |
not fullfilling basic user requirements:
- that basic tools work when they should not imply any hassle.
- this directly implies that: general product quality went down. |
If this has nothing to do with your past problems upgrading gcc, or changing CHOST please let me understand what do you mean with "basic tools not working".
P.S. I am out of town for a couple of days |
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erm67
l33t
Joined: 01 Nov 2005
Posts: 653
Location: EU
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| Posted: Sat Apr 14, 2007 10:27 am Post subject: |
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| Ateo wrote: | | From the linux on my desktops/notebooks perspective, I do believe I'll be switching to the Ubuntu way. It's just works and takes 30 minutes. I'm experienced enough to clean out the bloat. |
I used it on my brothers pc and it is nice indeed, I will maybe try it on my desktop. But won't it be boring if everything always work out of the box?
| Quote: | | In the end, Gentoo is a great hobbyist distribution. But you need to devote a lot of time to learn it but once you learn it, it's cake walk. I believe Gentoo is a powerful tool. It's not for everyone. For some, it is a great stepping stone. For others, it's a dangerous tool. For the rest, well, the rest are the ones that have 3 year solid Gentoo servers with 6 month uptimes... =) |
This is exactly the point, besides Ubuntu guy are in the business of making money out of support and certification and this can leverage some burden from the sysadm shoulder.
I really have to go ............... |
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