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bloodysugar
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2007 11:42 am    Post subject: If you want a usefull Gentoo on ps3, let's ask Sony ! Reply with quote

Hello,

This is my first post in this forum, i hope my proposition will interest a lot more than disturb.
(And please forgive my english, i'm french and i do my best but...)

You certainly all know that because Sony closed the access to the graphic card for other OS through its firmware, we can't use completly the PS3 as a mini PC. 3D apps are of course unusable, and even 2D apps as video players are so heavy to run.
Letting other OS like Gentoo use the RSX would be a big step for all Linux users on PS3.

So a petition asking Sony to do so has been created. It has been welcomed in all french boards, we have one signature each hour, but it would be a lot more powerfull if it would become international. That's why i contact your community.
Maybe it will have an effect, maybe not, but we can be sure that it wont make a change if we don't try.


Here's the link to this petition: http://www.petitiononline.com/RSX/petition.html
We hope that it will interest you enough to sign it, and if you can and want to help us to make it known internationally we would be so gratefull.
Anyway, thank you to have tooken some time to listen. :)



PS: If you want to sign, please do it with your real name, it's not a trouble for your personnal security but it may be a trouble for the serious of the petition to Sony eyes.


Best regards :)
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ddc
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2007 12:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

it is a good goal, but personally i don't think sony will do it.

let me say why i think so: facts

(1) playstation1 time
=================
sony made a so called "yaroze kit" to make you able to realize small games on a real playstation. The kit is composed by a special ps1 equipped with a special hw to be connected to a special PC board. Development tools and documentation was reduced in power to make you able to realize just little games or applications
The professional development version was supported by Codewarior-mips-psx development studio with a special licence: all the hw of the console was supported 100% and the kit add a fast download board and with a special CD ROM burner system: it makes possible to burn a psx-game running on a real psx without modchip
Without modchip you was obliged to run your-home-made-game ONLY on your yaroze psx.
(There are rumors about a linux port to psx, but there is nothing of really running: ps1 is noMMY machine with out expansion and not so much ram. uClinux may run, but it will be useless at all.)


(2) playstation2 time
=================
sony made a redha-sony-linux kit to make you able to run linux on your psx to develop small games. Booting linux requires a special DVD, a special kit for net/hd + vga adapter.
(i remember this kit costed 250 euro, and was limited in numers of kits)
Linux is not available in kernel-sources and the system is limited in graphical power.
The most famous application is the cluster made with 128 ps2 running linux.


(3) playstation3 time
=================
i can't say much more than sony makes ps3 able to use a common hard disk, but it makes it partitioned with a max of 10Gb for linux. You should be able to install the linux you best prefer, but you are limited by framebuffer support



conclusion
==========

sony doen't want to make you able to develop games on her consoles, sony doen't want to make you to hack/toy with her consoles, sony wants to make you to play with so called "play"-"station", 'cause she wants to sell the more consoles she can, and to get the more % of money she can giustify from all the companies are programming games for her consoles.

this is the reason why sony encrypts the hw of her consoles: she is afraind somebody can develop games in opensource way, trashing the money from the companies she is payed to lincence.
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LAj
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2007 7:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, but Sony doesn't pay european fee for its machine like a 'console' but like a 'general purpose' computer.
That's why you can part the HD and install an OS like Linux.
I think this law must be extended to all the machine without limitation.
So the petition make sense.

I quote bloodysugar and ask you all to subscribe it.
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KrimeDaddy
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2007 7:40 am    Post subject: noobies AGREE!!! Reply with quote

I am a noob to Linux.
I am a noob to Gentoo.
I am a noob to this forum.

BUT

I still want it to be opened up.


EVERYONE SIGN THE PETITION!!!
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KrimeDaddy
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2007 7:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry for the double post I forgot to ask......



ADMINS:

COULD WE GET A STICKY ON THIS, PLEASE??

Thnx
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ddc
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2007 11:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

LAj wrote:
Yeah, but Sony doesn't pay european fee for its machine like a 'console' but like a 'general purpose' computer.
That's why you can part the HD and install an OS like Linux.
I think this law must be extended to all the machine without limitation.
So the petition make sense.

I quote bloodysugar and ask you all to subscribe it.



yes, but ps3 is not a "general purpose computer", the gfx has specifically designed for gaming
we are running gentoo on ps3 with no support for the gfx: no hardware acceleration, no driver, only the minimal support to use it as frame buffer
so i think sony will never free the gfx specifications
but, the petition makes sense and we could try subscribing it

i subscribe it
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androvsky
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2007 9:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As for Sony allowing us to install linux for selfish reasons, Sony didn't have to let us install linux on the ps3. MS and Nintendo don't allow it, are they somehow better because of it? Also, if you're going to have a petition, have someone fluent in the language it's written in look it over first. The tone and quality of the linked petition is almost insulting. And if you haven't noticed, you're still allowed access to the Cell. Try using it, it'll do more than you'd expect.

Yes, I'd like access to the RSX also, very much so actually. But internet petitions are a poor way of doing it. And I'm surprised at how mad people are at Sony even though they've done us a favor.
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KrimeDaddy
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2007 1:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

.... because there is hardly anything that can be compiled for it.

x86...nope
amd...no
It is based on PPC but does that work? No
can we loop Bin from macs at least then? Of course not.

Lets go look for pascal SOURCE CODE WOOHOOO!!! (joke)

so unless I know how to code something I have to wait for other people to develop for the PS3 which is a crap shoot provided It may never happen. There is almost nothing that a PS3 can run that lets me know I have not wasted my initial investment. Sony needs to show me something because Fall of Man was pretty good, but definatly not NEXT GEN material. They have been out for half a year almost and havnt shown the slightest effort to show us something impressive. Most of the games released to date are ported. If we have ported games might has well saved our money and just bought a 360. Cause a ported game well thats just the same. Faster load times WOOHOOO your kidding me right? The COMPUTER ENTERTAINMENT SYSTEM is supposed to blow the other CONSOLES out of the water right? Show me the MONEY !

Honestly, who is going to develop something specifically for PS3 linux? that is a joke without graphics acceleration support among other things. Who wants to waste their time without full support of the hardware?

They just put linux on PS3 so people could browse the web? Write in notepad? sell more consoles that can install linux, but cannot do anything other than consolish stuff?
I have calculators,cell phones, that can do that.

I can run snes on a p133, at least I might have PS3 controller support on it (joke).
I am sorry you feel you need to defend sony and their fragile state of being, but I for one do not enjoy being suckered into to 2 "next gen" consoles, yet never getting to see anything next gen.

Linux is cool, I am glad to be a part of this. It is interesting and new to me; however, selling me a computer entertainments system, but continuing to only allow it to do consolish type things is an insult TO ME. Screw SONY. and that is HOW I will feel until they PUT OUT!!!!! *smile* :twisted:

They are trying to protect people from piracy.... That admirable yet pointless because their efforts have failed every single generation of system. You need a piece of solder, a lighter and a safety pin to play burnt games in a PS1 or PS2(mod chip). THEY CAME SO CLOSE to UNDERSTANDING. If they just carelessly allowed for people to rip and burn BLUE rays then there would be less reason to WANT TO. I know I have no desire to pirate 50 GB disks.
Hence the Idea behind open source, its free so mainstream society acts like it must be too good to be true (it must be too hard). I do not feel like trying to buy a 999 gb hard drive so that I can hold 20 Blue ray disks. sorry not worth it. It is just as easy to buy 60 dollar games and leave my drive space to other more useul things (provided they allow me to use their stuff without hypervisor). ESPECIALLY SINCE BLUE RAY is Practically unscathable.
I have had a couple new PS3 games for a while. I am not even being careful with them. I cannot scratch them. 8O

Please do not act like they are not laughing at us. They got some of our money. It is ok for us to complain and be demanding they GOT OUR MONEY. THEY SOLD US A COMPUTER ENTERTAINMENT SYSTEM not a CONSOLE.
So far I HAVE ONLY SEEN CONSOLE.
I dont think optical sound even works in PS3 Linux does it?
I know the HDMI doesnt.
only 5 SPUs COME ON !!!!!!!!!!

Why break apart the pieces.... THEY HAVE ONE FOOT IN AND ONE FOOT OUT.

THEY NEED TO JUST DECIDE!!! ALL IN OR ALL OUT

IF THEY GO SOUTH THOUGH I WILL NEVER BUY ANOTHER PS CONSOLE AGAIN.
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KrimeDaddy
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2007 1:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Xbox and Nintendo did not charge 600 dollars for hardware that was unusable either. They did not advertise the support for other

OS and then once you opened the box it was like oh sorry we did not tell you ?? You cannot use all the hardware.... you can only INSTALL other OSes, but using the other OSes well that is limited to big calculator type functions.
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rm
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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2007 7:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

KrimeDaddy wrote:
Xbox and Nintendo did not charge 600 dollars for hardware that was unusable either. They did not advertise the support for other

OS and then once you opened the box it was like oh sorry we did not tell you ?? You cannot use all the hardware.... you can only INSTALL other OSes, but using the other OSes well that is limited to big calculator type functions.


So basically, it's not a general purpose computer? I'd say, let's tell some European institution, what would be the most appropriate institution?

rm
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androvsky
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PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2007 2:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

O_o

1: Optical sound works in linux, I'm using it.
2: We have access to six spu's, just like the game developers.
3: It is a general purpose computer. Has anyone in this thread ever used linux before? Not having 3D acceleration is a very common problem, and it's almost always due to political issues, rather than technical. Are OpenGL apps the only thing any of you use on a computer? Does it not strike you as a bit odd, that it sounds like all you really want to do is play 3D games?

Somewhere between 90% and 99% of your complaints will be addressed simply by a port of Mesa to the Cell, and I've heard rumors that is on the way. Proper video playback doesn't even require that much work (it works pretty good now if you don't go through X). The one percent is one I share, not being able to set the resolution in xorg.conf properly means the screen doesn't fit my TV correctly no matter what I do... that's really annoying.
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PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2007 10:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

For context: I normally don't buy a computer, I buy parts and assemble them.

Sony here is given an enormous tax advantage by declaring it is a computer. Point is, is today 3d considered part of a general purpose computer? Well, we're certainly evolving in that direction, are we there yet?

roel
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PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2007 8:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I always put together my own computer, so I always have a decent 3D card. But I also end up having to help friends with their computer, typically Dell, Compaq, or HP, and they virtually always have really crappy integrated 3D, of the level that the Cell by itself is most likely capable of equaling, if not exceeding. All we need is drivers, and like I said, that's happening. Unfortunately, due to misunderstanding rumors and such, it turns out the OpenGL port to the Cell has only just started. And lets face it, if the RSX was totally opened up tomorrow, it'd still take a while to get working OpenGL drivers for it. In fact, it might take longer if nvidia is unwilling to release specifications for the RSX, and given it's very similar to current mainstream GPUs, they probably wouldn't. Would they be willing to do a binary PPC version of the OpenGL drivers? It won't be exactly like what the game developers are using, and nvidia tends to be a bit slow on the linux side of things.

Like I said before, I would be incredibly happy if Sony gave us full or nearly full RSX access. But I don't think it's quite on the level of accusing Sony of defrauding the EU to not have access to the RSX, when we have access to six of the Cell spus.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 12:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

When I heard that SONY supports Linux on the PS/3 i was very interested.
I have Gentoo on different Plattforms its a hobby to me and that Cell Machine would be very useful as an linuxbased Mediacenter if i get xine-network to run with my VDR Server.

I dont know why Sony opend the Box to the Linux Community but the Tax Trick seems one of the Reasons.

The PS/3 is not doing very well on the Market right now and it seems Sony has to cut the prices down to make it more attractive for the Consument.

I think Sony have to open the Box at least for 2D Acceleration with good X Support and preinstall a nice Linuxdistri in it to gain a new sort of Customers who want a nice all in one Mediacenter with good performance and could hit the Company who is Competing against Sony (Microsoft).

If Sony does not do the trick it will loose on the Console Market within the next Generation against the X-BOX.

Other Companys jumped on the Linxwagon because that was the only Chance for them, Sony has to do it, too.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 2:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually there are already decent media center features in XMB. The problem is support for formats that most often pirates use. Another problem is the required FAT32 file system. If they would add more media support and support for for ex ext3 and NTFS XMB would be much better.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 8:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In my opinion, Sony isn't interested in having Linux users on their consoles. They are interested in the tax advantage. So, the provide the 'capability', and for Europe, that's enough. Zero Linux users on PS3 is just fine for Sony.

And if you take into account, that they loose money on every console they sell - that's the general opinion, they want to have the least Linux users possible. The gain money by selling games, not by letting people install a free operating system, where they don't gain any income.

Piracy? True, it exists, but if you look at what Sony itself has done the last years. Some people would call it criminal intent.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 1:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shouldn't you be hassling Nvidia? they made the GPU, not sony.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 8:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

but sony inplemented the layer (called hyper visor) protecting the gpu. sony does not want that people can use linux to get some fancy games on the playstation. sony needs the money coming from the studios, that pay for releasing games on the playstation.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 30, 2007 9:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

hassling or bashing sony? No, really not interested in one of them.

Wasn't complaining about sony, was pointing out they offer a subset of their hardware and tell 'this is a general purpose computer'.

The point about NVidia, well even if nv offered a driver, would it work? And probably, it will be up to sony to decide whether nv can offer such a driver. (guessing, I know)
And I'm not talking closed/open source drivers, maybe the open source drivers that are in development could be a solution.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2007 5:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I hate to say this, guys, but Sony is a business, and, popular opinion on this board notwithstanding, they have a right to protect their intellectual property; not in the broad (or narrow depending on your perspective) sense in which software patents are being upheld, but in the manner in which patents were originally conceived -- to protect an actual physical, tangible product from replication and counterfeit.

I think it's fabulous that they've opened the machine up at all, and done it in a way that is completely different from the original release of ps2 linux. I mean, come on, you can just download the damned dvd! Much better, in my opinion. But the company, while it would be nice, has no social obligation to open up its gpu architecture and put its PS3 life on the line just to satisfy a niche market--"We Hackers."

And, while these modding and porting projects are cool beyond reason, they serve little other purpose than to say "I hacked my PS3..." And if Sony releases the architecture (which will never happen no matter how many petitions you sign) and someone does write a graphics driver for Cell and its gpu... Then great. you now have a graphics capable pc sitting in your living room, which cost you 600 bucks, and probably performs at about 50% of a comparably priced PC, is not upgradeable or expandable, and still won't play enemy territory. Bravo. Not something I have the wherewithal to do, and it takes skill beyond my ability. But how, as a corporate entity, is Sony going to justify releasing the architecture based on hackers running mythtv? Will they sell more games? Will they sell more consoles (at a loss?) Not likely. A more likely response would be, "screw you guys, buy a VAIO."

I highly value the community's efforts to make these projects happen; it keeps the community's minds limber and keeps people hacking and coding. I just don't think it's realistic to organize efforts surrounding the release of a proprietary architecture to a community that will not even have a statistically significant impact on the bottom line of the company owning the designs.

Flame on!!!!
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 1:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

No easy Mythfrontend, no PS3. We'll just continue using homebuilt dual boot Gentoo/M$ boxes hooked up to the tv.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2007 7:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sugar wrote:
Shouldn't you be hassling Nvidia? they made the GPU, not sony.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2007 8:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i just read recently on lkml (when some sony engineers submitted some ps3 driver patches) that everything running as guest os (basically every linux you'll be running on the console) on ps3 runs under a hypervisor.

i'll take it as a definite proof that direct hw access on ps3 is not going to be easy.
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