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cchapman
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 05, 2003 5:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No but I did some extensive research on 64 bit compilation. The only thing is you only get 64 bit. you will not be able to be in mixed mode (64 bit and 32 bit), this will be 64 bit only....
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karl420
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 13, 2003 7:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm very interested in this subject, especially paired with gentoo. I see that SUSE, and others have developed 64-bit distros. We need a x86-64 branch of gentoo, fully documented and supported.

I will provide hosting and elbow grease for the project if anyone is interested in getting it going. Maybe if we got a site up about it (gentoo64.org is available ATM), we could get some donations coming in an get some research started.

Please, if anyone is interested in helping, send me an email, the domain name might have already been purchased by the time you do.

Karl Haines
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 13, 2003 11:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cchapman wrote:
No but I did some extensive research on 64 bit compilation. The only thing is you only get 64 bit. you will not be able to be in mixed mode (64 bit and 32 bit), this will be 64 bit only....


How would one go about creating 32/64bit system? You need two Glibc's, but how would one do that with Gentoo in such way that running 32bit or 64bit software was 100% transparent to the end-user?
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 15, 2003 7:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This thread is awesome!! We are getting 4 dual opteron systems in tomorrow and I need to have them ready to go by early next week. Thanks for all the great information.

FYI, Here is another location to get opteron workstations (without windows):
http://www.xicomputer.com/products/mtoweropmp.asp
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m3thos
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2003 3:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Evangelion wrote:
cchapman wrote:
No but I did some extensive research on 64 bit compilation. The only thing is you only get 64 bit. you will not be able to be in mixed mode (64 bit and 32 bit), this will be 64 bit only....


How would one go about creating 32/64bit system? You need two Glibc's, but how would one do that with Gentoo in such way that running 32bit or 64bit software was 100% transparent to the end-user?


Thats a very good question.

My educated guess is that we would have something like this:
we can have all the binaries mixed in /bin directories, and the glibc also mixed in /usr/lib and some other places...
or...
we would need to do something like
create sub-dirs named x86-64 or amd64..
and put the x86-64 binaries there.
of course that:
we can link them to the regular paths of a linux system or
we can include the new dirs in those paths..(that includes ld.so.conf etc...)

I've just scrambled around my solaris/sparc, and they put all the 64bit binaries under sparcv9/ directories...
But, they do not link them to the regular directories.. and have a lot of duplicated binaries.. in 32 and in 64 bits.. and only the 32bits are in the path... strange...
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2003 1:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

m3thos wrote:
Evangelion wrote:
cchapman wrote:
No but I did some extensive research on 64 bit compilation. The only thing is you only get 64 bit. you will not be able to be in mixed mode (64 bit and 32 bit), this will be 64 bit only....


How would one go about creating 32/64bit system? You need two Glibc's, but how would one do that with Gentoo in such way that running 32bit or 64bit software was 100% transparent to the end-user?


Thats a very good question.

My educated guess is that we would have something like this:
we can have all the binaries mixed in /bin directories, and the glibc also mixed in /usr/lib and some other places...
or...
we would need to do something like
create sub-dirs named x86-64 or amd64..
and put the x86-64 binaries there.
of course that:
we can link them to the regular paths of a linux system or
we can include the new dirs in those paths..(that includes ld.so.conf etc...)

I've just scrambled around my solaris/sparc, and they put all the 64bit binaries under sparcv9/ directories...
But, they do not link them to the regular directories.. and have a lot of duplicated binaries.. in 32 and in 64 bits.. and only the 32bits are in the path... strange...


I think this would have to be handled by the glibc development team. They would either have to change the name scheme or use two lib-directories, i.e
/usr/lib
/usr/lib64

64-bit version of the Oracle datbase is actually a hybrid between 32-bit and 64-bit programs and libraries.
Example:
Code:

file hso* in $ORACLE_HOME/bin shows:
hsodbc:         PA-RISC1.1 shared executable dynamically linked -not stripped
hsots:          ELF-64 executable object file - PA-RISC 2.0 (LP64)


The same goes for libraries, one called $ORACLE_HOME/lib which contains the 64-bit libraries and one called $ORACLE_HOME/lib32 for the 32-bit ones.

It is really not much the Gentoo developers can do until the glibc team makes it possible to have both 32 and 64-bit versions on the same system.

Erik
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 07, 2003 6:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cchapman wrote:
No but I did some extensive research on 64 bit compilation. The only thing is you only get 64 bit. you will not be able to be in mixed mode (64 bit and 32 bit), this will be 64 bit only....


Hmmm i believe that with the AMD hammer Series this can be done.
You can use 32bits programs into a 64bits operating systems...

the hammers have 3 mode for run....
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 09, 2003 5:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nimrod wrote:
Ok, as I understand the Opteron, he uses NUMA to access Prozessorspecific Memory (if you have a look on the MSI K8, you will learn that there are 6 banks for RAM, 4 on a block an 2 on another). ...


yes, in fact each Opteron has an integrated memory controller, but to have maximum performance, you have to check something in the BIOS:

- in non-NUMA aware kernel, the kernel will begin to allocate memory on the first node only, so only one memory controller is really used. To go against that, you have to enable, in the BIOS, the node-interleaving option, so the memory in distributed on the two memory-controller and you have better performance.

- on a NUMA aware kernel, the kernel will try itself to allocate memory on the node where the process is running, so you should have better performance than non-NUMA aware kernel. But for making that works, you have to disable the above option. (but you can leave the bank-interleaving on, because this option about interleaving between banks on each node individually)

I don't really know if there is a NUMA kernel working well for opteron, I remember that there is an experimental version available in the SUSE Entreprise AMD64 distrib, but I don't know if it is available somewhere else.


About mixed 32 and 64bits software, indeed Opteron is designed to do that, it is one of its strong points.
On AMD64 versions of Suse, Mandrake, and MS Windows2003 (well still in beta for this one), standart x86 binary works flawlessly out-of-the-box for the vast majority of them (only protected mode is supported though...).

I think on Suse, 32-bits library are put in the standart /lib directory, and 64bits library are in /lib64.

For more info, check the www.x86-64.org website, and ask your question on their mailing-list. (there are also interresting info in the archive, I remember to have seen instruction to build a 64-bit Linux from a 32-bit one for exemple)
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avenj
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 30, 2003 4:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Benchmarks against comparable Itanium systems would be interesting.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 14, 2003 9:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Any update regaring Gentoo on Opteron/Athlon64?
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avenj
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 14, 2003 3:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Evangelion wrote:
Any update regaring Gentoo on Opteron/Athlon64?


We have hardware and a new lead - things are progressing quickly now. Looking for any specific information?
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JATMAN
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 14, 2003 3:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Any idea when the next experimental AMD-64 release will be?
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avenj
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 14, 2003 4:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JATMAN wrote:
Any idea when the next experimental AMD-64 release will be?


I think brad_mssw has updated stages up...

Updated LiveCD with a lot of fixes will probably be in a few weeks when the LiveCD building stuff is finally integrated into stager.
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Evangelion
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2003 12:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

avenj wrote:
Evangelion wrote:
Any update regaring Gentoo on Opteron/Athlon64?


We have hardware and a new lead - things are progressing quickly now. Looking for any specific information?


Well, basically:

1. Does it work?
1.1. If it doesn't, what parts don't work?
2. Does it work as a 64/32bit system?
2.1 How does one create a 64/32bit Gentoo-system?
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avenj
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2003 3:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://dev.gentoo.org/~brad_mssw/amd64-tech-notes.html
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2003 3:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I also can't wait to try Gentoo on my AMD Athlon 64 which I will get in a week or so (hopefully).
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2003 3:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I tried a 64-bit install about a week ago using the experimental AMD64 Live CD. Although I did build a running system, overall it was just not sufficiently mature to be useful for me. Most ebuilds were masked - many for good reason.

I'm encouraged that the AMD64 development team has gotten some needed resources and now appears to be making rapid progress again. Personally, I think I'll let this "age" for another month or so and then give it a try again.

I'm "lusting in my heart" for 64 bit system...
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avenj
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2003 4:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's not necessarily that they're masked so much as they're not yet AMD64-keyworded... if something does compile for you on AMD64 you can submit a bug on Bugzilla assigned to amd64@gentoo.org mentioning that it works and it'll get keyworded in the tree, though.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 16, 2003 12:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As soon as I can afford an Athlon 64, I'll be getting one, and would be willing to assist with the development of Gentoo on AMD64.

Who should I get in touch with once I've got it? Brad, or someone else?
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avenj
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 16, 2003 3:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

robmoss2k wrote:
As soon as I can afford an Athlon 64, I'll be getting one, and would be willing to assist with the development of Gentoo on AMD64.

Who should I get in touch with once I've got it? Brad, or someone else?


Submit stuff via Bugzilla, it'll get assigned to amd64@gentoo.org

Might also want to hang out on #gentoo-amd64 on Freenode.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 17, 2003 6:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

avenj wrote:
http://dev.gentoo.org/~brad_mssw/amd64-tech-notes.html


Thanks :)
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 16, 2003 5:50 pm    Post subject: status report? Reply with quote

How is gentoo for the opteron?

any non official boot CD plus a stage 1 ?

i'm going to have a dual-opteron b4 2004, and wanted to know if there is some boot CD and some stage builds with the latest gcc so I can build a native amd64 environment....
or should I stich with x86 for now.. and wait for a good amd64 release?
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 16, 2003 6:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The updated "experimental" AMD64 Live CD has worked out well for me. I primarily use my dual Opteron machine as a database server and have the "developer" 64-bit release of Oracle 9.2 for AMD64 running on it. So far, it's been stable and is performing well.

Suggest checking this out:
http://dev.gentoo.org/~brad_mssw/amd64-tech-notes.html

JATMAN
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 17, 2003 8:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OSNews: Linux on the Opteron (including Gentoo). There is still work to be done it seems.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 17, 2003 12:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I must disagree with the summary of Gentoo for AMD64 in the link Evangelion provided.

By my experience, the latest AMD64 Live CD is MUCH better than the original one. My guess is that the author did not follow the notes provided in http://dev.gentoo.org/~brad_mssw/amd64-tech-notes.html . Most packages are masked - but that is not because they are known broken but rather because they are not fully tested. My experience is that most everything works. Key exception is that Java stuff has to be run 32-bit as there are no 64-bit JDKs.

I think the Gentoo AMD64 team has done an outstanding job and am looking forward to their first "official" release supporting AMD64. Until then, for anyone with AMD64 hardware - give the latest AMD64 "experimental" Live CD a try!

JATMAN
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