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Do you think it was a smart move of "Gentoo Games, Inc." to support the propaganda game "America's army"?
Yes
34%
 34%  [ 162 ]
No
38%
 38%  [ 181 ]
Indifferent
27%
 27%  [ 132 ]
Total Votes : 475

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TGL
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PostPosted: Sat May 17, 2003 12:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Evangelion wrote:
Again, I fail to see how releasing this game is a bad thing. The actual gameplay is no different from Counterstrike for example. As to it being a "propaganda-tool". Well, it's not really an effective at that, since they don't actually hide the fact that is was made by the Army. Everyone who plays that game knows what to expect.


It has not only been created by the US Army, but for the US Army, to help them convince young americans that going in the middle-east to kill bearbeds is right and fun. The intent is part of the product, makes all the difference, and nobody can remove it from this game (damned closed source programs! :)).

Evangelion wrote:
And this might come as a shock, but US Army (or any other army for that matter) is not inherintly evil


I've not said that, and don't think it neither.

Evangelion wrote:
Hell, if people are steering clear of Gentoo because they release a "propaganda-game", then what about XBill?
[...]
Why is some propaganda better than other propaganda?


Bill Gates demonisation is part of the free software folklore, and is only illustrated with humor in XBill. But US Army and war against terrorism has nothing to see with free software culture, that's why this propaganda is out of the scope of a Linux distribution. And to my knowledge, there has been no official announce of an XBill LiveCD, which makes a big difference. I'm not against an ebuild for AA in the portage tree, if people wants to install it, its okay for me. But what I think is too much is the publicity that have been done through this LiveCD and the announce on the website. It's really a kind of official support from Gentoo to the ideas this game carries.


Last edited by TGL on Sat May 17, 2003 12:52 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Sat May 17, 2003 12:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

d3c3it wrote:
as for the politics, they should be kept well out of the linux world


What about XBill? Like it or not, Linux and free software is soaked with politics!
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PostPosted: Sat May 17, 2003 12:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TGL wrote:
Bill Gates demonisation is part of the free software folklore, and is only illustrated with humor in XBill.


Yet, the fact remains, it's propaganda. No different from AA. In AA, they show the army defending freedom against terrorists (or something. I haven't played it). In XBill, they show valiant Linux-user defending computers against evil BillG and his minions. Yes, one is more serious, other is more funny, yet they are both propaganda.

Quote:
But US Army and war against terrorism has nothing to see with free software culture, that's why this propaganda is out of the scope of a Linux distribution.


So propaganda in Linux is 100% OK if it's anti-MS propaganda? Sorry, propaganda is propaganda, no matter what it's about. If you are against propaganda, you should be against XBill as well. You should not pick and choose which propaganda is acceptable and which is not. Where do you draw that line?

Quote:
And to my knowledge, there has been no official announce of an XBill LiveCD, which makes a big difference.


Xbill is a small game, no need to make a separate LiveCD for it. But it is available.

Quote:
I'm not against an ebuild for AA in the portage tree, if people wants to install it, its okay for me. But what I think is too much is the publicity that have been done through this LiveCD and the announce on the website.


IF you don't like AA, then don't download it. problem solved.

Quote:
It's really a kind of official support from Gentoo to the ideas this game carries.


Not really. More like they wanted a hi-profile game for their launch. Commercial game-companies were not interested (no revenue, small market), but Army said "Yeah, we could help you, after all we don't do this for profit".
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PostPosted: Sat May 17, 2003 12:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Evangelion, the fact it clearly states that it is made to promote american army does not mean it is not propaganda. The symbol remains and the hidden meaning are still there. It is much more vicious and disgusting than a simple "promotion" of an army.

In my first post, I did not even think about commenting the association of Gentoo with that game because I do not think it is really a part of the problem. I do not see gentoo as a "fight for freedom and for mind opening" distribution. I do not use it as a way to give myself an identity, I use it because that is what I need. If the choice the developpers made was taken out of any political context and if that decision may help Gentoo... then so be it. If the choice had been political and if Gentoo developpers had done that to promote the ideas behind AA, then... that is a different matter and I would not be the only one disappointed. I am sure it is not the case though.

To come back on a few points... As most people said here, no one criticizes american army, no one criticizes soldiers. They are risking their lives sometimes because of decisions taken by disgusting humans being, sometimes to save a nation and defend the most fundamental values that are still alive. Such an attitud requires a lot of bravery and no one here has to say anything about it. Army is a weapon, politics are the murderer.

To answer your last question. There are a few kind of propaganda and I am sure it could make the subject of a great book. In my humble opinion, the worst propaganda, the plague of all times, is the current situation in our democracies. Our countries succeeded where Fidel Castro, Pinochet and a few others failed.

The scope of this matter is far wider than whatever else we can think about: Linux, XBill and anything else.


Sorry for the poor english.
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PostPosted: Sat May 17, 2003 1:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

barlad wrote:
Evangelion, the fact it clearly states that it is made to promote american army does not mean it is not propaganda. The symbol remains and the hidden meaning are still there. It is much more vicious and disgusting than a simple "promotion" of an army.


Sure it is propaganda. I never said it was not. I just said it's not very effective at it, since everyone knows what to expect from it.

Quote:
If the choice the developpers made was taken out of any political context and if that decision may help Gentoo... then so be it. If the choice had been political and if Gentoo developpers had done that to promote the ideas behind AA, then... that is a different matter and I would not be the only one disappointed. I am sure it is not the case though.


I'm 99% sure that the reason to ship was to get attention, gain more users and perhaps get some money as well.

Fact is, there are already propagande in Linux and in it's apps (like Xbill). by complaining about AA is hypocritical IMO
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PostPosted: Sat May 17, 2003 1:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lurid wrote:
Gentoo, as far as I am aware, has made no press release stating an offical support for the US Army, nor have they inserted any overt advertising into their website/forum/software. What Gentoo did do, however, is realise a VERY hyped game for linux. Releasing a game and being affiliated with it, are two different things.


That's really the difference between ours opininons: I'm convinced that propaganda is transitive.

Now, I don't really think this propaganda was an deliberate choice of the Gentoo developpers. It is more probably a misjudgment, and I can believe that they have think, exactly the way you do, that releasing a hyped game couldn't hurt.
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PostPosted: Sat May 17, 2003 1:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

soulwarrior wrote:
Maybe some people (like me) are over-reacting because of the past events, where the american army invaded Irak.
Dead leave a bad tast, which came back, when I read "America's Army".
But in fact, it was the government who took this decision.


Yep. One should not blame the soldiers for the invasion. It is always the political leadership who makes that decision, soldiers just carry out that order

Quote:
Nontheless I would find it better if gentoo would stay out of supporting propaganda-material.


There is already propaganda-material in Linux

Quote:
Let the user itself choose what he makes with the operating system.


Exactly. And no-one is forcing you to play AA. You can keep on using Gentoo like you have done in the past, you just have the added benefit of playing AA if you want to.

And thanks to this deal, Gentoo gets ported to Opteron!
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PostPosted: Sat May 17, 2003 1:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lurid wrote:
bsolar wrote:
I don't understand why you have so much problem about the fact that some people don't like that Gentoo supports an army propaganda tool.


Its a damned shame to hear that from a moderator of a Gentoo forum. Gentoo, as far as I am aware, has made no press release stating an offical support for the US Army, nor have they inserted any overt advertising into their website/forum/software. What Gentoo did do, however, is realise a VERY hyped game for linux.

That's not the "support" I intended, I was talking about the support for the game. Moderator or not, I don't like to see the name of Gentoo affiliated (directly or not) with a propaganda tool. Don't get me wrong, I accept this and I have nothing against this kind of games, I appreciate the fact that the real intent of the game is well publicized ecc... For sure I don't "blame" or "point my finger", just I don't like a thing, I'm not going to "hate" the game, the system or anything else, I have most important things to do with my hate.
lurid wrote:
Excuse me, but I still feel as though this is the silliest and most childish debate I've seen in a long time. I'll hold my tongue to keep the peace, but my feelings remain the same.

You are free to speak and explain your point of view provided that you keep an adeguate tone. I encourage you in doing so.
I agree with you that the reaction to this game might be exagerate (leaving Gentoo because of this is unbelievable IMHO), but also your counter-reaction seems a bit exagerate to me. Why getting angry because of this?
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PostPosted: Sat May 17, 2003 1:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Evangelion wrote:
So propaganda in Linux is 100% OK if it's anti-MS propaganda? Sorry, propaganda is propaganda, no matter what it's about. If you are against propaganda, you should be against XBill as well. You should not pick and choose which propaganda is acceptable and which is not. Where do you draw that line?


I've not said I was against every propaganda. But you're right, I draw a line. I think that what concerns software is in the scope of the GNU ideas, whereas international politics or war is not. Yes free software is politic, and RMS claims are not only lines of C code. Now, XBill is far from being a very clever way to promote free software, but as I've already said, it's a humoristic reference to some part of the free software community folklore, and that's all.

Quote:
More like they wanted a hi-profile game for their launch. Commercial game-companies were not interested (no revenue, small market), but Army said "Yeah, we could help you, after all we don't do this for profit".


I tend to agree, but I still think they have done a mistake.
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PostPosted: Sat May 17, 2003 1:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, I guess only thing we can do is to agree to disagree on this issua
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PostPosted: Sat May 17, 2003 1:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Evangelion wrote:
Well, I guess only thing we can do is to agree to disagree on this issua

:lol:

...done.
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PostPosted: Sat May 17, 2003 1:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Evangelion wrote:

There is already propaganda-material in Linux


Yes, but it was never before announced on the first page of their website ;)

Evangelion wrote:

And thanks to this deal, Gentoo gets ported to Opteron!


I must agree, that this is a good thing because it leaves the users more choice which cpu they want to use in future.

It is interesting to see, that an asssociation, which is mostly dedicated to destruction, sometimes also contributes to provide support to build something up.
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PostPosted: Sat May 17, 2003 1:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bsolar wrote:
Why getting angry because of this?


Mostly because its reactionary hysteria. But also mostly because I don't understand it. We are the propoents of free software, we are supposed to have the "open minds", we are supposed to be about *choice* when it comes to running software on our computers. And this.. I don't get it. If someone dislikes AA, they don't install it. I don't like Windows for moral reasons myself, and so I don't use it. But how are we going to sit here and talk like we're free thinkers and promote linux while we condem a company for realeasing software we aren't particularly fond of? A GOOD company at that. What other distro has done what Gentoo is planning to do? I don't understand it, and when I simply can't understand the rational behind actions I get very frustrated. I appologize for my outburst a few posts back, but I can't appologise for thinking this has been blown way out of perportion.

If I were a Gentoo dev reading all this, by this point I'd be throwing my hands in the air saying "Why did we even bother.." :roll:

soulwarrior wrote:
It is interesting to see, that an asssociation, which is mostly dedicated to destruction, sometimes also contributes to provide support to build something up.


Its ironic, isn't it? You'd be supprised how many companies actually benefited from WWII. A lot of the technology we enjoy today can be traced back directly to WWII. Is war good? Obviously not, but every cloud has a silver lining.


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PostPosted: Sat May 17, 2003 1:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've open a vote and a discussion related to this thread here :

https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic.php?p=326428#326428


Mod PS: I moved the poll into Dups since I don't think there is need for it and there is already this thread for the discussion. - bsolar
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PostPosted: Sat May 17, 2003 1:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bsolar wrote:
d3c3it wrote:
as for the politics, they should be kept well out of the linux world

When I'll be bored of my current signature I'll use that if nobody does it before me.

sure go ahead:)

im out my depth now so ill leave my opinions to myself:)
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PostPosted: Sat May 17, 2003 2:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lurid wrote:
I appologize for my outburst a few posts back, but I can't appologise for thinking this has been blown way out of perportion.

No problem, and nobody ever asked (and never will) you to apologize for what you think, whatever you happen to think. :wink:
If you did not notice, even if I don't like propagandistic tools I agree with most of the things you said, the fact that the reaction to this is exagerate in primis. Just maybe I'm a bit more moderate... :P
lurid wrote:
every cloud has a silver lining.

That's gonna be another great signature... :wink:
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PostPosted: Sat May 17, 2003 2:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lurid wrote:

Its ironic, isn't it? You'd be supprised how many companies actually benefited from WWII. A lot of the technology we enjoy today can be traced back directly to WWII. Is war good? Obviously not, but every cloud has a silver lining.


Yeah, one could think of the voyage to the moon, made possible by the rockets, the german developed to attack london
The radar, now widely used in aviation, and so on.

The chinese? sign yang ying, demonstrates these property in a symbol. The black side flowing in the white side.
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PostPosted: Sat May 17, 2003 2:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for starting this thread, martinc...I was contemplating posting my thoughts on another thread but that probably wouldn't have been appropiate. I know I'm repeating some of what was already said, too, btu I just wanted to weigh in. Anyway...

When I first saw America's Army, I thought it looked pretty cool. After I read more about it, though, I was appalled at what the 'game' really is. I know there are other FPS's out there that make war and killing into one big game. What I think makes this different is the fact that that mentality is being supported by the US Military. The Air Force has already been for awhile with their "fly from a desk" campaign (with the unmanned probes and stuff). I was talking to a couple of AF recruiters I know and they said that's a big push to get people to join--liken it to a video game because, and I think that this is unfortunate, that's what many of the people coming out of high school can associate with. I know many can handle the distinction between real life and a video game, but some can't. Also, I haven't played the game so I don't know what it's about. I've read in this thread that it involves terrorists and stuff. I really REALLY hope every mission in the game doesn't involve shooting guys with turbans. I've noticed some other FPS's on the market that have you hunting down guys with turbans non-stop and I think that is not cool at all. It spreads a negative stereotype. Again, some people know better about associating terrorists with all Muslims or Arabs, but some don't, and I think that the US Army should be very careful about this.

Having said that, I in no way think any less of Gentoo as a whole for being involved with the project. I really wish they weren't, but the fact that they are isn't going to cause me to ditch the distro. I guess time will tell if more games of a variety of genres come to Gentoo like AA did. For example, I'd love to see SimCity4 on Gentoo. I have 3000 from Loki games, so thinking that SC4 could potentially come over to a good OS isn't that farfetched. But anyway, to those who ARE considering dumping Gentoo, first think about this: there are a lot more businesses out there that have ties to the DoD than you probably know. If I remember correctly, close to 50% of businesses in the US have ties to the DoD, whether it's directly, or maybe a parent company owns another company that provides goods or services, whatever. Unless you boycott ALL of those companies, you probably shouldn't be considering ditching Gentoo.

Lastly, my paranoid side is going to come out here, and maybe some of you can help me because I don't know the details here. Is this game fully open source? I ask that because there's just something I don't like about installing stuff put out by a government that is pushing for increased surveillence (sp?) rights on anyone's computers.

Thanks for reading, sorry if my writing gets a bit choppy at times. It's not my strong point.
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PostPosted: Sat May 17, 2003 2:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

m33sb3w wrote:
I really REALLY hope every mission in the game doesn't involve shooting guys with turbans. I've noticed some other FPS's on the market that have you hunting down guys with turbans non-stop and I think that is not cool at all. It spreads a negative stereotype. Again, some people know better about associating terrorists with all Muslims or Arabs, but some don't, and I think that the US Army should be very careful about this.


Hm, could someone, who is playing the game, describe it a little bit?
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PostPosted: Sat May 17, 2003 2:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Its a game! For me this is just something to kill time with when I havent anything better to do.
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PostPosted: Sat May 17, 2003 3:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

gwarf wrote:

Mod PS: I moved the poll into Dups since I don't think there is need for it and there is already this thread for the discussion. - bsolar


I don't understand why you think the poll is not needed. and I think it should be never closed

If there are lots of vote and protestation things may change, but perhaps you don't want it ?
Gentoo is made for users, no ?
I love Gentoo, that's why this makes me sad...
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PostPosted: Sat May 17, 2003 3:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I sincerely hope the next game gentoo distributes over livecd is something like SimCity or Tetris.

But wait! SimCity would promote capitalism and the maybe the American way of life. So thats out of the question.

ACK! Tetris wouldn't be so great either since it promotes the destruction of those little falling puzzle pieces.. And it was designed in Russia while it was a communist state. And Russia won't leave Chechnya alone! Can't have no commie games.

Maybe a Tux adventure game? But where's he going to adventure to? Surely it has to be the middle east to promote peace and love, otherwise people will stop using Gentoo. He'll carry with him a rifle that shoots joy. He'll negotiate with the Baathists, Saudis, Islamic Jihad, and the Israeli's to stop all the hate. Tux can't be American though, so we'll make him Swedish.

He won't even speak in english, he'll just make penguin sounds since again, people will stop using Gentoo.

In my opinion just get over it, this is a free game that didn't catch any of this childish flack when it was released for Windows months ago. I mean c'mon.. ITS A FREE GAME that doesn't *really* suck, to a great deal of people. How often do these big free games come out? Never? What large free linux games that have just come out would you guys recommend Gentoo distribute as its first Gaming LiveCD? I can't think of one :(

Edit: Maybe I'm just an idiot or I don't get it.. I'm a British resident living in the US, and this game doesn't feel like a military ad. Hell.. there are so many military games out there right now that perhaps I've just seen too much. I don't feel the need, the desire, or even the smallest inkling to join the army or to recommend anyone I know do it. Is everyone else just too f*cking uptight?
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PostPosted: Sat May 17, 2003 3:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

gwarf wrote:
gwarf wrote:

Mod PS: I moved the poll into Dups since I don't think there is need for it and there is already this thread for the discussion. - bsolar
I don't understand why you think the poll is not needed. and I think it should be never closed

I made this thread a poll, IMHO there was no need for a different place for it.
gwarf wrote:
If there are lots of vote and protestation things may change, but perhaps you don't want it ?

As Moderator the only thing I want is that there are no dups or inappropriate posts, it's not my intention at all to in any way interfere with any form of protestation using the Moderator options available to me, provided the rules of these Forums are respected.
dev wrote:
Edit: Maybe I'm just an idiot or I don't get it.. I'm a British resident living in the US, and this game doesn't feel like a military ad.

But it is, check Q: Why are you doing the game?.
dev wrote:
Is everyone else just too f*cking uptight?

Probably, and from both the sides as always... :roll:
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PostPosted: Sat May 17, 2003 4:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's a game to inform, period. There are plenty of other realistic military games out there, just as realistic as AA. Are they secretly funded by the US Military to advertise for the US Army? I doubt it.

And my comment was that it doesn't feel like an ad. It feels like a game. (probably because it is) If you decide to play it, then you'll understand why I say it doesn't. If you've never played any military first person shooters than I can see your point. But there are way too many out there right now to not at least know that this isn't the first.

This reply comes off a bit harsh, sorry. :)
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PostPosted: Sat May 17, 2003 4:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dev wrote:
It's a game to inform, period.

Maybe the word "propaganda" used before is not the correct one:
Quote:
Propaganda consists of the planned use of any form of public or mass-produced communication designed to affect the minds and emotions of a given group for a specific purpose, whether military, economic, or political.

Opinions?

dev wrote:
And my comment was that it doesn't feel like an ad. It feels like a game. (probably because it is) If you decide to play it, then you'll understand why I say it doesn't.

You assume I haven't played it and that I disagree with you about how the game "feels". Why?
dev wrote:
This reply comes off a bit harsh, sorry. :)

Don't worry. :wink:


EDIT: the definition I quoted above comes from here.
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