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Do you think it was a smart move of "Gentoo Games, Inc." to support the propaganda game "America's army"?
Yes
34%
 34%  [ 162 ]
No
38%
 38%  [ 181 ]
Indifferent
27%
 27%  [ 132 ]
Total Votes : 475

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pinr
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2003 4:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

elektrohirn wrote:
hey, it's just a game.

It's a game yes but not "just a game" it's also a simulation
" Nobody knows military simulations like the world's premier land force, the U.S. Army. So when the Army began making a simulation to let civilians experience the barracks to the battlefields,"
and a recruting tool......
"Are you ready to see some of the over 200 ways to be a Soldier? Let me hear a HOOAH." see http://www.americasarmy.com/about.php

elektrohirn wrote:
im german and i had bad experiences sometimes with some people when we were playing wolfenstein, when i ONCE played for the axis side ... some people immideately put me into the nazi corner which really annoyed me.

Yes Wolfenstien is a game loosly based on historical events but nowhere do ID software urge you to Join the National Socialist Party. And please don't flame me saying I'm comparing the the US army to the Nazis, I'm not! only to point out the the US army represents the current US adminstaration an adminstration which is both politcal and controversial.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2003 7:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think anyone would be making a stink over this game if the US didn't attack two countries recently. The people who made the game have nothing to do with an executive order to deploy and follow orders. Right now the US is in the middle of a major political mess because of their actions and that is why this game is under fire. Not because of the game itself.

Had 9/11 not of happened, had Bush not of gone off the deep end, no one would even notice this game. Its another crappy first person shooter with a loose storyline and internet play. *yawn* I'm still waiting for some decent innovation to hit the gaming arena. I'd really like to see some more RPGs made like in the old days.. but for now we're stuck with the same game over and over. Nothing new has happened on this front since the first Wolfenstien.

If you want to be political, be political. Speak where your voice will be heard. Stand up for what you believe in, but be sure your energy is going in the right direction. Attacking a game makes you sound like a left wing christian saying Diablo is evil and will make kids become satanists.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2003 5:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

zephyr1256 wrote:

While I generally do not approve of my country's current policies regarding preemptive war these days, I think you are way off base here. There are indeed boundaries/rules/etc., both in the real US Army, and in the game America's Army. Please see the question on what makes this game different from other shooter games.


I said there were no boundaries, but my first statement (inappropriate boundaries) is closer to what I actually meant. What really gets me is the fact that this game is an overt attempt to impose a new value system on kids:

Q: What makes America's Army different from other shooter games?
A: … we emphasize teamwork, values and responsibility as means to achieving the goals.

That sounds warm and fuzzy, right? What are "the goals"? The value system that we use 99.99% of the time in everyday life does not include murder. Every video game has some sort of a system like this: UT's value system would probably be killing as many people as you can at great personal risk. The difference is, UT doesn't take it self seriously. It doesn't pretend to be selling apple pie. There are labels on the box, and no, I don't think 13-year-old kids should be playing UT. I know kids who have played extremely violent games as a kid (including myself), and I know kids who haven't. Don't tell me there's no difference; there is. Life isn't a series of missions; you have to enjoy the journey. Life isn't a means to an end, because there is no ultimate end. We live, and then we die. Video games never teach you that. This game claims to emphasize two values: teamwork and responsibility. Do you think those are the two most important values for everyday life? I don't. But I do think people with that system of values would be more likely to support oppressive foreign policy or enlist. People who don't play video games understand this far more consistently than people who do. UT rightly warns against kids playing it, while this game claims to be suitable for 13-year-olds.

My issue has very little to do with the recent war on Iraq and much more to do with intrusive recruitment efforts targeted at innocent kids, especially poor ones. This is just another vanilla coating on war. War isn't a video game, so why the repeated efforts to turn it into one? The game is part of a larger problem, but it is quite an audacious move in and of itself.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2003 7:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

iplaysax wrote:
This game claims to emphasize two values: teamwork and responsibility. Do you think those are the two most important values for everyday life? I don't. But I do think people with that system of values would be more likely to support oppressive foreign policy or enlist.


Teamwork and responsibility lead people to support oppressive foreign policy and to enlist in the military? I guess we better start banning youth athletics, student government, part-time jobs, homework, and the Boy and Girl Scouts just to be safe. I may have missed a few there, these sinister influences are everywhere. But if we're vigilant, I'm sure we can create a dream world of irresponsible loners. What a wonderful place that would be!

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iplaysax
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 25, 2003 3:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Teamwork and responsibility are great values, but in this simulated video game, they are more important than anything else; value for life, for instance, has to take second place. I'm guessing that honesty has to as well; soldiers do what they're told and don't ask for reasons. When they're done, they lie about what happened or keep silent about it. That's the way war works, and I'm not saying it's always wrong. In everyday life, though, and in deciding foreign policy, I believe that we ought to value human life and honesty more than loyalty and teamwork. Otherwise, to what end are we applying all this loyalty and teamwork? I think our largest responsibility as citizens is to keep our heads up to see which direction all our loyalty and responsibility is taking us. I don't think that's so hard to swallow.

I don't think anyone is going to argue that violent video games are a good influence... except, apparently, the Army. That's all I'm saying; the army released a violent video game and claimed that it was a great way to teach 13-year-olds about the world. That bothers me, and when you couple that with an intrusive recruitment effort in high schools, it bothers me even more.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 25, 2003 4:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

iplaysax wrote:

I said there were no boundaries, but my first statement (inappropriate boundaries) is closer to what I actually meant. What really gets me is the fact that this game is an overt attempt to impose a new value system on kids:


Not at all. Kids don't have to enroll in the Army to play this game. "Expose(a new value system to kids)" would be a more accurate word than "impose".

Quote:

Q: What makes America's Army different from other shooter games?
A: … we emphasize teamwork, values and responsibility as means to achieving the goals.

That sounds warm and fuzzy, right? What are "the goals"? The value system that we use 99.99% of the time in everyday life does not include murder.


So... I'm fairly certain(although I can't say I have played the game), that murder is not encouraged in the game(in fact from what I have read actions such as that are actually punished in the game, you don't progress or whatever), so I'm not sure of your point here, unless you are using the word "murder" in a non-legal sense.

Quote:
Every video game has some sort of a system like this: UT's value system would probably be killing as many people as you can at great personal risk. The difference is, UT doesn't take it self seriously.


That is secondary in importance to the objectives and values which govern how goals are reached in the game.

Quote:
It doesn't pretend to be selling apple pie.


I don't think the Army is doing anything of the sort either. There is a reason that there is an faq *for parents* about this game. Yes it exists to try to convince parents that this is ok for their kids, but it is also there so that they can make an informed decision about whether their kids should be playing this.

Quote:
There are labels on the box, and no, I don't think 13-year-old kids should be playing UT. I know kids who have played extremely violent games as a kid (including myself), and I know kids who haven't. Don't tell me there's no difference; there is.


Examples?

Quote:

Life isn't a series of missions; you have to enjoy the journey. Life isn't a means to an end, because there is no ultimate end. We live, and then we die.


I'm not sure what your point is here. America's Army isn't about life in general, so I'm not sure what relevance this has to the discussion.

Quote:

Video games never teach you that. This game claims to emphasize two values: teamwork and responsibility. Do you think those are the two most important values for everyday life?


Of course not, but again, its irrelevant, those are values held by the military, significant values, apparently.

Quote:
I don't. But I do think people with that system of values would be more likely to support oppressive foreign policy


I don't see this following from holding the values of teamwork and responsibility as important. People have other values. I'm not sure that this is generally true.

Quote:
People who don't play video games understand this far more consistently than people who do. UT rightly warns against kids playing it, while this game claims to be suitable for 13-year-olds.


Again, games like UT are very different.

Quote:
My issue has very little to do with the recent war on Iraq and much more to do with intrusive recruitment efforts targeted at innocent kids, especially poor ones.


Kids don't get to enroll until they are of a much more suitable age to make their own decision. Also, how is this an intrusive recruitment effort? It requires effort on the part of its intended audience to expose oneself to this game. It's basically a big 'opt in' commercial. Arguably, a TV commercial for the Army is more intrusive because it requires you not to watch or change the channel to not see it, ie, assuming you are watching TV, it is 'opt out'

Quote:
This is just another vanilla coating on war. War isn't a video game, so why the repeated efforts to turn it into one?


I don't think the implication is made anywhere that war is a video game. The efforts to create a video game simulations of war are already part of what the Army does. It is used to help prepare soldiers for the real thing. This just uses such a simulation as a recruiting tool.

Quote:
The game is part of a larger problem, but it is quite an audacious move in and of itself.


What larger problem?
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 25, 2003 7:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't see the big deal about this. If the Army wants to use their computer game to recruit people, deal with it. This all reminds me
of what's going on with the tobacco industry with their marketing
of their products (not saying its the same, just reminds me of it).
I mean.. It's just a game. Nothing more, nothing
less. I can see where most of you came up with your opinions, and
I'm not flaming anyone. These are just one of those things we all
in this world have to deal with.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 25, 2003 7:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TaboZ wrote:
Quote:
This sort of hysteria neither caused nor resulted from AA.


Excuse me? What planet are you living on?

This game is a RECRUTINGTOOL for the army that killed maybe 10.000 innocent civilians in Iraq only.

Some say for oil, some say for world-domination, anyway, Gentoo is fucked because someone (dollarsigns seeing bussiniessoperation?) decided that gentoo stands next to this *killers*.

I used to be proud of gentoo...


It was Gentoo's business decision to do this. I don't know why they made the decision, but it was more than likely for the better.
"(dollarsigns seeing bussiniessoperation?) " Face it, money talks.

Yes. the game is a recruiting tool... For as long as I have lived the Army
has 'marketed' itself. There's commercials, banners, posters, UNCLE SAM, conventions (theres one right now here in KC), they goto schools, colleges, etc. You don't see any of this wrong?
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payam
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 10, 2003 6:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I didn't read through the 12 pages of messages, so this was probably already said, but i'd like to go on record as saying it (too):

let adults decide what content they will see/hear.
let children's parents decide what content is right for them.

gentoo has been about freedom and choices: you can choose among several different programs to do the same thing. (some examples: your kernel, shell, window system, web browser, mail client/server, ftp, http, ......)

so now gentoo has made it easy to install a game that to some is objectionable or questionable... so what? if you don't want it, don't type "emerge americas-army"

so to sum it up: let the decision of what is appropriate and what is not appropriate be made by individuals, and if that individual is too young, then let it be made by his parents.

personally, i'm emerge'ing americas-army right now ;-)
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2003 4:06 am    Post subject: not anti U.S., but anti bullshit propaganda ... Reply with quote

I think a lot of things in the game are bullshit propaganda and the fact that you are unable to simulate being an oponent to the US killing americans does lend some validity to the argument that AA is in fact not your average game such as wolfenstein or cs, but some propaganda tool promoting the vested interests of the U.S. army and possibly a few other U.S. governmental bodies.

My political oppinion what this propaganda is used to is of no relevance here. I could say more, but that would probably turn this thread into an inferno. :twisted:
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KungFuHamster
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2003 6:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK, after reading through this thread, I've come to a few conclusions:

-The majority of people complaining about the game haven't played it. I tried it, and it's OK. Most of what I was able to play at the time (due to a buggy net connection) was training, NOT killing innocent Muslims, impaling babies and drinking blood like most anti-AA:O posters seem to think it is. It focuses a lot on how soldiers in the US Army are trained and what they need to do in combat situations.

And here's something the anti-US people should get a kick out of: you lose points in the training sims if you shoot civilians!

I know what you're thinking: "Butbutbut... American soldiers ALWAYS shoot civilians and rape the women and kick the puppies and say NI!"

Guess what? You. Are. Wrong.

The majority of people complaining about the game don't know a lot about America. The most vocal anti-AA:O people (that I noticed) are European, and odds are haven't ever been to the US in the first place. Or even outside of the EU, for that matter.

The majorty of people complaining about the game can't tell the difference between the US Military, the US Government, and the US citizenry. This goes along with the previous statement.

The majorty of people complaining about the game have some problem with the US Government, and thus project it on anything remotely American. Just as we are routinely mocked by our "sophisticated" European allies for being ignorant of the world and of other cultures, the majority of AA:O posters are ignorant of American culture, referring only to what their biased news outlets *cough*BBC*cough* report and whatever radical fringe news website they managed to dig up while using Google to search for "pornographia". :)

Now, how does this fit into the thread? Simple. school kids what the training is like,

Anyone who draws a conspiracy link between the US Army for creating a game to promote the US Army, show high school kids what the training entails, and real-world combat scenarios and Herr Bush forcing the world to goose-step to "God Bless America" via a Linux distribution is, to be totally blunt, fucking ridiculous.

And now for a grand revelation...

America's Army: Operations doesn't run that great in Linux! I had the latest nVidia drivers, plenty of avilable RAM, minimal system resource usage, and the thing STILL chugged on a 1GHz Athlon/512MB RAM built from stage1! The Windows version runs a bit better, but it's stil shower than hell. And you can't skip over the training portions and go directly to the violence, either.

Is it entertaining? Moderately. Is it going to turn Gentoo into a tool for the US Government/Military/Zionist Conspiracy to assist in the overthrowing of the world? If you think so, please be sure to sterilize yourself in order to insure your paranoia doesn't infect the rest of the gene pool.


(I would simple like to take this opportunity to say a few additional things about myself:

1. I am an American.
2. I occasionally play AA:O.
3. I occasionally play wither FPS games.
4. I use Gentoo.
5. I know how to spot blatant propaganda like AA:O when I see it.
6. I enlisted in the US Marine Corps before I started playing AA:O.
7. I have not yet had the chance to see places outside of the USA, though I have plans to do so.
8. I do not kick puppies, rape women, shoot civilians, impale babies, say 'NI!', drink blood, support President Bush, worship Satan, vote Republican, vote Democrat, torture little old ladies with renditions of ABBA songs, send out vicious gange of turn left signs to attack English vicars, or partake in any other stereotypical American behavior.
9. This entire post is based solely on my opinions, experiences, and conclusions reached. They in no way reflect that of anyone or anything else other than myself.)
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2003 2:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sure, I play the game since it's fun... I have no intentions of joining the army... I agree with making good games avaliable on Linux...

And I am an American... Also, the game runs better in Linux than windoze...
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 20, 2003 3:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am Belgian/European,
I use Gentoo,
I love America,
but I resent the "New American Century" thinktank (anybody?) in the US and the ultra-conservative, ultra-religious and military-minded schwung that has been going there on since long before 9/11.
In my opinion supporting (with this I mean providing a bootable CD for instance, not putting it in the portage tree, which is just a plain freedom of choice matter) AA was not in line with the priciples Gentoo stands for (Freedom being the most important one), since the real American army has suppressed and in some cases still suppresses other people and has installed bad regimes and dictators all over the world (together with the American intelligence agencies).
I know AA is just a game in the first place, but it also is recruitment material and brain-washing propaganda (yes, I've played it) so supporting it gives away a symbolic agreement with the ultimate goal for the makers: recruit as many young (teen) Americans as possible for Uncle Sam's army and create a "generation of soldiers". HOOAH!!!
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 20, 2003 4:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Brainwashing? No, I think not... most people that I play with usually just take it as a game, there are tons of clans... I rarely see a star in-game (person who is in the army)... I am in the -=[BK]=- clan... nobody takes it as a recruiting tool... Just a free game for most people...
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 22, 2003 5:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

First: I'm an American. I support Bush and I support our foreign policy.

Second: Its a game. If you don't like it don't play it. I like the game. I've played it often. But I've yet to walk outside and engage in a satanic ritual involving drinking the blood of a newborn. And yes having the game in Gentoo is part of that principle of freedom we all cherish because that freedom means protecting the rights of others to see or read things you disagree with (and I would point out unlike in Germany or France freedom of speech is really protected in the US -- try denying the Holocaust in Germany and see how fast you end up facing that 'Holocaust denial' criminal charge).

Yes, its a recruitment tool. So what? Its no different then the 'Army of One' TV commercials or the advertisement you see in magazines. The US Army is a professional army. People volunteer (unlike most other nations) and no one is forced to join(short of a national emergency that would restart the draft).

My brother was in the army (paratrooper) for 4 years (1998-2002). I almost joined the Air Force in 1996 but didn't because I had better opportunities (I'm a scientist and, yes, I work in the defense industry). Did my brother join or did I consider joining so I could eat Muslim babies (the prevailing attitude in this thread)? No. But because I was interested in being a pilot for the latest aerospace technology and my brother simply enjoyed the physical challenge of being in the armed forces (and because he wanted to play a part in the nation's defense).

Most of the world (and Europeans especially) are simply jealous that the US is militarily strong enough to do as it pleases without the aid of allies. Suck it up.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 22, 2003 5:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry double posted
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 22, 2003 10:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm an American too. I DON'T support Bush. I DON'T support his foreign policy OR his domestic policy... so what?

It is just a video game. I don't see the sense in censoring a Linux distribution. I want software for my computer. If you choose to use software that is the equivalent of propaganda, that is your choice...

That is what the computer (and the television) is for... the person who chooses to use it.

If Gentoo were to start choosing supported software based on a political preference, we would be seen as a patronizing and unserious group of people.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 25, 2003 12:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

plus greenpeace would slap your asses for kicking pinguins off slopes :)

(tux-racer, the only linux game known by the outside world)
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2004 11:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Greenpeace then better not see this:
http://yeti.e-medien.com/yetisports1.html

Although I don't like the game, and don't like the attitude under which is was distributed, I do not think that the game has a large impact on players. I know a few people who play it, (one of them is my father, 45 years old), and they don't seem to be obsessed about joining the armed forces.

For the record, I'm a Dutch male, 17 yrs old.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2004 12:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
AA was not in line with the priciples Gentoo stands for (Freedom being the most important one), since the real American army has suppressed and in some cases still suppresses other people and has installed bad regimes and dictators all over the world (together with the American intelligence agencies).


Of course it was in line. Freedom allows you to do anything INCLUDING using gentoo to distribute AA. Your going to restrict this freedom simply because you don't like it? If you don't like gays are your going to lock them out of using gentoo too? YOU are supressing freedom right now by allowing YOUR political beliefs to get in the way of people using gentoo to do what they want to do.

The US Army is one of the most professional Armies in the World and does do a crap load of good things and does some bad things as well. Most important to most people in the US is that it provides many poor men AND women with a way to get affordable college education and real world training. Like it or not the US Army is a very important part of todays world.

The US Army needs more and more intelligent soldiers every day(despite what most Europeans think, all Americans don't want to join the army and go kill a bunch muslims, bosnians, somalians, etc...) and this is a way to recruit them. The world still needs a policeman and like it or not the US happens to be that man. Unlike most EU countries military service is not mandatory (yea its changing but slowly) and most men do not join the military for 6-18 months before college.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2004 12:33 am    Post subject: Wow! Reply with quote

My parents used to threaten me by saying they would send me to the military if I didn't straighten up. They were totally shocked and awed when I told them I needed them to sign my enlistment papers at the age of 17. The main reason I joined the Army was because I didn't want to go to college and I didn't want to work. I found myself buried up to my neck in a total immersion type foreign language training program and performing every type of manual labor known to man.

I am not sure what has happened while I was in for 10 years, but I know this:

The good old fashioned educator has disappeared from our schools.

The vast majority of kids learn nothing at home or at school about values, responsibility or even beliefs. (This can be attributed to the many single parent families which are bad and the kids that have both parents working to pay the bills are even worse.) My oldest wanted enroll in the BSA, so I did. I thought the very first meeting was for kids with Attetion Deficit Disorder and Hyperactivity syndrom. They have to learn to beleive in something from somewhere, so why not something good?

The Army was/is a good way of life, and I loved living it every single day. Toby Keith said it best in his song, "American Soldier". Take a listen sometime, even if you don't like country.

If you don't want to use Gentoo because of America's Army, fine! Quit! SEE YA!

Somebody mentioned that soldiers do what they are ordered to do, then lie about it, regardless of what they believe in or value. This is such a misguided and horseshit statement it makes me want to throw up. I have belonged to many organizations in my lifetime. I have found that no matter the organization, the cause of the organization or the belief of the organization, they always seem to have the best and worst of society as members. This includes members of all classes and walks of life. Criminals and law abiding, God fearing citizens. Every organziation gets them. The criminal element enters under false pretenses and is not discovered until a crime is committed. When and if that crime is committed, those soldiers are dealt with. It is unfortunate, but it is life. It takes hard people to do hard things. The media promotes this bullshit of the the coverups and liars. They are the minority and they are few and far between. They aren't smearing the guy or gal all over the front page of the paper that enlisted for college money because they would never be able to afford it any other way, or the man or woman trying to distance themself from the ghetto life, gang life, spouse abuser, drug abuser or otherwise pathetic and despicable person they were once associated with.

The last thing I know, is that I was at the local mall and I was totally overwhelmed by the fact that blacks and whites who were the norm around here, were totally and completely outnumbered by Mexicans, Europeans, Asians and Indians.

I think the melting pot has overflowed.

Oh. Wait. I know something else. Gentoo ROCKS!!!!!!!! With or without Americas Army, I've played it AND I've lived it.
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wdreinhart
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Joined: 11 Jun 2003
Posts: 569
Location: 4QFJ12345678

PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2004 2:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is it politically insensitive? Yes. Should it still be available as a Gentoo games CD and included in Gentoo Linux? Certainly. I don't think it's Gentoo's place to be a political organization. They should provide packages that the users want, without regard to political issues like "inappropriate" content, free vs. unfree licenses, or the ongoing US vs. EU snit. It should be up to the user to decide what content is appropriate, what software licenses are acceptable, and whether he (she) wants to play games like "America's Army".
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Ateo
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Joined: 02 Jun 2003
Posts: 2021
Location: Republic of California

PostPosted: Sat Jan 31, 2004 6:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just out of curiosity, why was the name "America's Army" chosen? I could care less since I don't do computer gaming. I'm just curious. Oh and I could also care less if Gentooers have anything to do with this game. It's just a fucking game.
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UltraN00B
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Joined: 20 Jan 2004
Posts: 24
Location: Beverly Hills... 90210

PostPosted: Mon Feb 16, 2004 7:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well I would wager 30 shekels that somewhere in this "game" *cough* PROPAGANDA *cough*... there is a direct link to army recruiting web, where you can sign on and "be all that you can be"... and "renovate your life" and all that... so the nation's youth(12-18) will now be fully prepared to join up and ship out... and in the words of Country Joe and The Fish... "come home in a box"...
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POLAX
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Joined: 11 Dec 2003
Posts: 40
Location: Edmonton, AB - Canada

PostPosted: Sun Apr 18, 2004 5:44 am    Post subject: Doesn't make a difference... Reply with quote

Look at the old Command & Conquer games...sure there are no countries named but the two sides are pretty clear...
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