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OverMyHead
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2016 2:16 am    Post subject: A shoppers dilemma : What can Gentoo do? Reply with quote

Greetings all. I'm a Linux Noob who is very likely to be useng the Gentoo Distro simply out of customizability alone. Yet in this extensive customizability I suddenly find my brain oxygen deprived from reactionary holding my breath. So as per the title, I'm having a shoppers dilemma of "What can it do"? What is it? ... Repeat.

I ask because I like to measure twice before I proceed, but the Hand Book doesn't seem to have a list of all the things Gentoo can do. (And I'm really hoping that I didn't miss it in my search.)

Thank you!
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2016 3:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gentoo can run all software written for Linux and Gentoo can teach you alot about Linux internals. What else you want?
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2016 4:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Two reasons why you don't need that list:
  • The very configurability you tout. If you decide it should be different, you can make it so.
  • You don't yet know enough to make intelligent choices from such a list.
Also, it's kind of like asking for a list of all possible chess games: such a list would be unwieldy. The Handbook describes a good minimal starting point from which you can learn to customize further. Best advice at this point is don't sweat it too much and get started.

- John
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2016 7:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It can do whatever you want it todo within the bounds of the software you want to use.

Using gentoo won't suddenly make gimp Photoshop because gimp is gimp BUT if you want gimp, a specific version (even the live dev code) with something specific enabled you can.

If you want to use a certain library over a drop in replacement (ffmpeg vs libav) you have the choice...

You and gentoo coexist working along side each other for your specific means. This is in contrast with binary distro where it will let you do what you want with what their devs provided
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2016 8:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OverMyHead,

Welcome to Gentoo.

Measure with a micrometer, mark with chalk, cut with an axe.

Gentoo can do whatever you need it to do. I run it on servers, desktops and Raspberry Pis.
The hard bit for beginners is realising that Gentoo is a toolkit you use to make your own distro.
That means that you have to make all the decisions that binary distros have made for you.

When you put your own distro together using Gentoo, if its not 'right', (you won't know what 'right is at the start,) you change it.
It will be mostly CPU time.

Oh, you post here for help or ask in #gentoo on irc.freenode.net

Enjoy your Gentoo.
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OverMyHead
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 08, 2016 3:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jaglover wrote:
Gentoo can run all software written for Linux and Gentoo can teach you alot about Linux internals. What else you want?


Uh. Run professional grade windows programs flawlessly? No? Then I guess I'll go with "teach you alot about Linux internals" for a start.

NeddySeagoon wrote:
OverMyHead,

Welcome to Gentoo.

Measure with a micrometer, mark with chalk, cut with an axe.

Gentoo can do whatever you need it to do. I run it on servers, desktops and Raspberry Pis.
The hard bit for beginners is realising that Gentoo is a toolkit you use to make your own distro.
That means that you have to make all the decisions that binary distros have made for you.

When you put your own distro together using Gentoo, if its not 'right', (you won't know what 'right is at the start,) you change it.
It will be mostly CPU time.

Oh, you post here for help or ask in #gentoo on irc.freenode.net

Enjoy your Gentoo.


Indeed. This is why I've chosen Gentoo, against far easier Distros for someone completely new to linux. I'm aware Gentoo is a toolkit. ... and yet ...

John R. Graham wrote:
Two reasons why you don't need that list:
  • The very configurability you tout. If you decide it should be different, you can make it so.
  • You don't yet know enough to make intelligent choices from such a list.
Also, it's kind of like asking for a list of all possible chess games: such a list would be unwieldy. The Handbook describes a good minimal starting point from which you can learn to customize further. Best advice at this point is don't sweat it too much and get started.

- John


Well said. Fair points. Were it anyone else, I would concur. Point two in particular. I don't need all the possible choices, just a base line. To stay with the metaphor, I'm just looking to find out what the main pieces are and what they can do. That's IT! After that I can do the rest. Another metaphor - I'm trying to do my homework so I can make my custom distro essay, but I can't seem to find the books I need. So far the only thing I've been able to find is what Desktops Gentoo can run. One more metaphor just to bring things around, If Gentoo is a toolkit then what are the tools in the toolkit?
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 08, 2016 1:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think we've quite made our point. There's nothing unique at all about the capabilities of an installed Gentoo system. The only truly unique features of Gentoo are its package and distribution management tools, which engender its extensive relatively easy customizability. Now, are there some non-distribution-maintenance related open source packages that are authored and maintained by Gentoo developers? Sure (e.g., eudev, openrc), but without exception these packages are used by other distributions as well. So, nothing unique to see here; move along.

What you appear to need is a good book on Linux. One such is Running Linux: A Distribution-Neutral Guide for Servers and Desktops.

- John
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 08, 2016 2:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OverMyHead,

The tools are the toolchain and package manager, the source code, the list of packages you want, the packages you need to support the packages you want and the options you choose to compile all that source code with.

The easy ones first.
The Toolchain, this is the set of packages used to build sources, including the toolchain itself. The package manager (portage) keeps track of what you have installed with what options, so it can work out what is needed to install something else.
Source code, with a small number of exceptions this comes form outside Gentoo, eudev and portage come to mind as being developed by Gentoo.

Now it gets harder
The packages you want. You need to translate the things you want to do into the packages you want to use to perform those tasks For example, Web browsing,
Gentoo provides
Code:
$ ls /usr/portage/www-client/
chromium       google-chrome-beta      opera-beta           surf
ck4up          google-chrome-unstable  opera-developer      surfraw
conkeror       httrack                 otter                uget
dillo          jd                      phantomjs            vimb
dooble         links                   pybugz               vivaldi
elinks         lynx                    qtweb                w3m
epiphany                               qupzilla             w3mir
fetch          midori                  qutebrowser          w3mmee
firefox        netrik                  ripe-atlas-cousteau  weboob
firefox-bin    netsurf                 seamonkey            xombrero
google-chrome  opera                   seamonkey-bin
web browsers. PIck one or more to satisfy your browsing needs. As an additional complication, there may be several versions for you to choose from too. Lets choose firefox for this illustration.
Code:
ls /usr/portage/www-client/firefox/
Manifest  firefox-45.4.0.ebuild  firefox-50.0.1.ebuild
files     firefox-45.5.0.ebuild  metadata.xml
Three versions.
Now we get to options, which Gentoo expresses with USE flags. Staying with firefox
Code:
$ emerge -pv firefox

These are the packages that would be merged, in order:

Calculating dependencies... done!
[ebuild     U  ] www-client/firefox-50.0.1::gentoo [50.0::gentoo] USE="hwaccel jemalloc jit skia startup-notification -bindist -custom-cflags -custom-optimization -dbus -debug -gmp-autoupdate -gtk2 -hardened -jack% (-neon) -pgo -pulseaudio (-selinux) (-system-cairo) -system-harfbuzz -system-icu -system-jpeg -system-libevent -system-libvpx -system-sqlite {-test} -wifi" L10N="-ach -af -an -ar -as -ast -az -be -bg -bn-BD -bn-IN -br -bs -ca -cak -cs -cy -da -de -dsb -el -en-GB -en-ZA -eo -es-AR -es-CL -es-ES -es-MX -et -eu -fa -ff -fi -fr -fy -ga -gd -gl -gn -gu -he -hi -hr -hsb -hu -hy -id -is -it -ja -kk -km -kn -ko -lij -lt -lv -mai -mk -ml -mr -ms -nb -nl -nn -or -pa -pl -pt-BR -pt-PT -rm -ro -ru -si -sk -sl -son -sq -sr -sv -ta -te -th -tr -uk -uz -vi -xh -zh-CN -zh-TW" 190888 KiB

The USE= is the option list. This is my install. Options with no sign are on options with a - sign are off.
The L10N= list are the list of supported optional languages. Hmm, -en-GB ... that's wrong for me.

As I already have firefox installed, I didn't get a dependency list but you get to do this picking and choosing for the dependency list as well.
Its quite possible that Firefox requires that some of its dependencies are built with certain options. This can mean that you might need to rebuild some dependencies to install firefox with the options you want.

Choosing options package by package is hard and leads to rebuilds when you get it wrong. Linux From Scratch (LFS) lets you do that.
Gentoo provides profiles
Code:
 $ eselect profile list
Available profile symlink targets:
  [1]   default/linux/amd64/13.0
  [2]   default/linux/amd64/13.0/selinux
  [3]   default/linux/amd64/13.0/desktop
  [4]   default/linux/amd64/13.0/desktop/gnome
  [5]   default/linux/amd64/13.0/desktop/gnome/systemd
  [6]   default/linux/amd64/13.0/desktop/kde
  [7]   default/linux/amd64/13.0/desktop/kde/systemd
  [8]   default/linux/amd64/13.0/desktop/plasma
  [9]   default/linux/amd64/13.0/desktop/plasma/systemd
  [10]  default/linux/amd64/13.0/developer
  [11]  default/linux/amd64/13.0/no-multilib *
  [12]  default/linux/amd64/13.0/systemd
  [13]  default/linux/amd64/13.0/x32
  [14]  hardened/linux/amd64
  [15]  hardened/linux/amd64/selinux
  [16]  hardened/linux/amd64/no-multilib
  [17]  hardened/linux/amd64/no-multilib/selinux
  [18]  hardened/linux/amd64/x32
  [19]  hardened/linux/musl/amd64
  [20]  hardened/linux/musl/amd64/x32
  [21]  default/linux/uclibc/amd64
  [22]  hardened/linux/uclibc/amd64

which are good starting points for you to begin fine tuning from.
You also have the choice to do it the hard way if you really want to.
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OverMyHead
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 08, 2016 8:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

John R. Graham wrote:
I don't think we've quite made our point. There's nothing unique at all about the capabilities of an installed Gentoo system. The only truly unique features of Gentoo are its package and distribution management tools, which engender its extensive relatively easy customizability. Now, are there some non-distribution-maintenance related open source packages that are authored and maintained by Gentoo developers? Sure (e.g., eudev, openrc), but without exception these packages are used by other distributions as well. So, nothing unique to see here; move along.

- John


It may be very well possible that I've put too much weight on the term customizability. What can I turn on & what can I turn off. Yet - unfortunately, this doesn't stop the nagging in my head. In my post above I point out where I found data that told me all (as far as I know) the Gentoo supported desktops, all of which at that point I knew nothing about. Gnome, KDE, Cinnamon... these meant nothing to me other then "These are your GUI options". So what did I do after I posted above? I looked them up. The Pros & Cons. How resource intensive are they? How does one differ from the other? Do any have any exclusively coded in... whatever. I now know alot more about these GUI options, and have written down which GUI I preferred. So when the time comes for installation, I'm not going to be sitting there and saying "What is that?" I'll already know. THATS. IT! This of course being a front end thing, I'm also interested with what I can do to the back end without actually writing raw code myself.

That's all I'm looking to do.

Is that not logical? We're homing in here. There is going to be *click* soon one way or the other.

John R. Graham wrote:

What you appear to need is a good book on Linux. One such is Running Linux: A Distribution-Neutral Guide for Servers and Desktops.

- John


Thank You.

NeddySeagoon wrote:
OverMyHead,

The tools are the toolchain and package manager, the source code, the list of packages you want, the packages you need to support the packages you want and the options you choose to compile all that source code with.


I don't know why, but I'm getting a kick out of "the packages you need to support the packages you want". How do I know what I need and how do I know what I want? I promise that isn't intended to be an existential question. Of course, in this case at first this is where the handbook would come in, but I *imagine* the question would become relevant the closer I am to finishing up the installation process. On to the next part of the quote.

NeddySeagoon wrote:
The easy ones first.
The Toolchain, this is the set of packages used to build sources, including the toolchain itself. The package manager (portage) keeps track of what you have installed with what options, so it can work out what is needed to install something else.
Source code, with a small number of exceptions this comes form outside Gentoo, eudev and portage come to mind as being developed by Gentoo.

Now it gets harder
The packages you want. You need to translate the things you want to do into the packages you want to use to perform those tasks For example, Web browsing,
Gentoo provides
Code:
$ ls /usr/portage/www-client/
chromium       google-chrome-beta      opera-beta           surf
ck4up          google-chrome-unstable  opera-developer      surfraw
conkeror       httrack                 otter                uget
dillo          jd                      phantomjs            vimb
dooble         links                   pybugz               vivaldi
elinks         lynx                    qtweb                w3m
epiphany                               qupzilla             w3mir
fetch          midori                  qutebrowser          w3mmee
firefox        netrik                  ripe-atlas-cousteau  weboob
firefox-bin    netsurf                 seamonkey            xombrero
google-chrome  opera                   seamonkey-bin


web browsers. PIck one or more to satisfy your browsing needs. As an additional complication, there may be several versions for you to choose from too. Lets choose firefox for this illustration.


Right. Gentoo, just as all other linux distros is based off the OG linux kernal, with the difference being the capabilities of Gentoo designed eudev and portage. Yes. Aware. I might as well add that Gentoo builds from the source "from scratch" which has all blah blah benefits... yes I know. It seems that this is the one basic thing that keeps getting told to me. Yes I get it. Mabey I'm being thick. I hope not, but its possable. To me right now, this particuler thing is not important. It will be. That is inescapably blatant. Just not right now in my search for data and understanding.

... No Netscape? :P

Guess what I'm going to be doing after I post this? Don't bother - going to tell you anyway. I'm going to look up each of these browsers - sans the more main stream ones. What do I need? What do I want? It's another front end thing, but it's something.

NeddySeagoon wrote:

Code:
ls /usr/portage/www-client/firefox/
Manifest  firefox-45.4.0.ebuild  firefox-50.0.1.ebuild
files     firefox-45.5.0.ebuild  metadata.xml
Three versions.
Now we get to options, which Gentoo expresses with USE flags. Staying with firefox
Code:
$ emerge -pv firefox

These are the packages that would be merged, in order:

Calculating dependencies... done!
[ebuild     U  ] www-client/firefox-50.0.1::gentoo [50.0::gentoo] USE="hwaccel jemalloc jit skia startup-notification -bindist -custom-cflags -custom-optimization -dbus -debug -gmp-autoupdate -gtk2 -hardened -jack% (-neon) -pgo -pulseaudio (-selinux) (-system-cairo) -system-harfbuzz -system-icu -system-jpeg -system-libevent -system-libvpx -system-sqlite {-test} -wifi" L10N="-ach -af -an -ar -as -ast -az -be -bg -bn-BD -bn-IN -br -bs -ca -cak -cs -cy -da -de -dsb -el -en-GB -en-ZA -eo -es-AR -es-CL -es-ES -es-MX -et -eu -fa -ff -fi -fr -fy -ga -gd -gl -gn -gu -he -hi -hr -hsb -hu -hy -id -is -it -ja -kk -km -kn -ko -lij -lt -lv -mai -mk -ml -mr -ms -nb -nl -nn -or -pa -pl -pt-BR -pt-PT -rm -ro -ru -si -sk -sl -son -sq -sr -sv -ta -te -th -tr -uk -uz -vi -xh -zh-CN -zh-TW" 190888 KiB

The USE= is the option list. This is my install. Options with no sign are on options with a - sign are off.
The L10N= list are the list of supported optional languages. Hmm, -en-GB ... that's wrong for me.

As I already have firefox installed, I didn't get a dependency list but you get to do this picking and choosing for the dependency list as well.
Its quite possible that Firefox requires that some of its dependencies are built with certain options. This can mean that you might need to rebuild some dependencies to install firefox with the options you want.

Choosing options package by package is hard and leads to rebuilds when you get it wrong. Linux From Scratch (LFS) lets you do that.


I shall keep that in mind, and I'll look up LFS.


NeddySeagoon wrote:

Gentoo provides profiles
Code:
 $ eselect profile list
Available profile symlink targets:
  [1]   default/linux/amd64/13.0
  [2]   default/linux/amd64/13.0/selinux
  [3]   default/linux/amd64/13.0/desktop
  [4]   default/linux/amd64/13.0/desktop/gnome
  [5]   default/linux/amd64/13.0/desktop/gnome/systemd
  [6]   default/linux/amd64/13.0/desktop/kde
  [7]   default/linux/amd64/13.0/desktop/kde/systemd
  [8]   default/linux/amd64/13.0/desktop/plasma
  [9]   default/linux/amd64/13.0/desktop/plasma/systemd
  [10]  default/linux/amd64/13.0/developer
  [11]  default/linux/amd64/13.0/no-multilib *
  [12]  default/linux/amd64/13.0/systemd
  [13]  default/linux/amd64/13.0/x32
  [14]  hardened/linux/amd64
  [15]  hardened/linux/amd64/selinux
  [16]  hardened/linux/amd64/no-multilib
  [17]  hardened/linux/amd64/no-multilib/selinux
  [18]  hardened/linux/amd64/x32
  [19]  hardened/linux/musl/amd64
  [20]  hardened/linux/musl/amd64/x32
  [21]  default/linux/uclibc/amd64
  [22]  hardened/linux/uclibc/amd64

which are good starting points for you to begin fine tuning from.


I recall seeing this list in the Handbook. I just checked, but couldn't find it, so I'll just leave it at this looking familiar. Something I read somewhere. I'll look into this again all the same. Thank You.
NeddySeagoon wrote:
You also have the choice to do it the hard way if you really want to.


Well that's the catch ain't it? To a noob everything is hard at first. :P
I don't know the difference yet, and thus this is why I'm endeavoring on one of the more technical, and "harder" distros. I'll learn more without the pain of ease. You only really get one chance with that, for better or for worse.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 08, 2016 9:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you will understand Gentoo just by talking about it it will be the first time for me to see someone to do it.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 08, 2016 9:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OverMyHead,

Your are missing the clever bit with Gentoo. You turn the list of tasks that you want to perform into a list of packages that you choose to use to perform those tasks.
You also choose the options you want to build those packages with.

You feed the list to Portage. Portage works out what you need to have to install the packages and options you selected and does the install.
If it can't find a solution, it tells you why not.

After you have things installed, you find out it wasn't what you really wanted :)
Not to worry, you can change it.

You will learn more playing with Gentoo that talking about it. Make yourself a VirtualBox Gentoo guest with a 40GB HDD and try it.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 08, 2016 10:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OverMyHead wrote:
I don't know why, but I'm getting a kick out of "the packages you need to support the packages you want". How do I know what I need and how do I know what I want? I promise that isn't intended to be an existential question.
The short answer is you'll learn that in passing as you progress through your first install.

The slightly longer answer is that you don't need to know, because Portage knows. "the packages you need to support the packages you want" has a much shorter name: dependencies. Every time you ask Portage to install a package, it calculates what's called a dependency graph, determining what other packages need to be installed in support of the package you want. Portage handles the automatic installation of dependencies and, if you uninstall the original package you wanted, Portage will automatically handle the de-installation of the dependencies.

There's that concept again: you don't need to know that to get started. ;)

- John
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2016 2:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jaglover wrote:
If you will understand Gentoo just by talking about it it will be the first time for me to see someone to do it.


Well. Necessity is an amazing teacher. A kick ass imagination to build from with all the data helps too.
-----------------------
Before continuing I would like to note that I rigorously reflected on the comments below. I've sat in front of my computer screen for about an hour.

NeddySeagoon wrote:
OverMyHead,

Your are missing the clever bit with Gentoo. You turn the list of tasks that you want to perform into a list of packages that you choose to use to perform those tasks.
You also choose the options you want to build those packages with.

You feed the list to Portage. Portage works out what you need to have to install the packages and options you selected and does the install.
If it can't find a solution, it tells you why not.

After you have things installed, you find out it wasn't what you really wanted :)
Not to worry, you can change it.


John R. Graham wrote:
OverMyHead wrote:
I don't know why, but I'm getting a kick out of "the packages you need to support the packages you want". How do I know what I need and how do I know what I want? I promise that isn't intended to be an existential question.
The short answer is you'll learn that in passing as you progress through your first install.

The slightly longer answer is that you don't need to know, because Portage knows. "the packages you need to support the packages you want" has a much shorter name: dependencies. Every time you ask Portage to install a package, it calculates what's called a dependency graph, determining what other packages need to be installed in support of the package you want. Portage handles the automatic installation of dependencies and, if you uninstall the original package you wanted, Portage will automatically handle the de-installation of the dependencies.

There's that concept again: you don't need to know that to get started. ;)

- John


Alright ya'll. Oh... how do I words... geez. Before I even start, these are all great answers that I would love to build off of, and presuming you are willing to indulge me the derailing of my own threads original intended subject; I very likely will.

What is the tile of this thread? The title starts "A shoppers delemma", to which is my attempt to describe the sheer magnitude of options with in choice. You ever go into a grocery store and shopped for Ice Cream? I haven't counted but for the sake of right now there's like... at least 26 different kinds of Ice Cream! (At least that is how it is in the states). Bacon, Black walnut, Butter Brickle, Butter Pecan, Chocolate chip cookie dough, Chocolate, Cookies and Cream, Cookie dough, English toffee, French vanilla, Fudge ripple, Green tea, Lemon custard, Mango, Maple walnut, Mint chocolate chip, Moose Tracks, Neapolitan, Peppermint, Pistachio, Raspberry Ripple, Rocky road, Rum and Raisins, Strawberry, Tutti frutti, Vanilla... so on. Maddness. Now on top of that presume you are just learning English.

The second part of the title is "What can Gentoo do?", which I feel at this point now was far too broad of a question, even in conjunction with the shoppers phrase to correctly describe what it is I seek. Instead it should be closer to... well. Maybe the phrase alone is best.

(Ice Cream)

So for the sake of my brain doing the words thing, Gentoo for the moment is now a Ice Cream Sunday. What?!? I don' t know ether. Just stay with me here. There is a method to my blatant madness. I just hope this method works, as I'm running out of ideas here. I can see why you are saying what you are saying. Gaaa!

Alright. So I'm making a sunday at a buffet or store. Whatever. I've never built an Gentoo Sunday before. I have a lot of options before me but don't know what any of the selection of ice creams, cones, toppings, and candies tastes like. Yes If I compile the sunday and taste it...er... test it, as described in the quotes, I'll find out if it will work or not. Which is great, but it's not why I made this thread. Could I try them all and trial and error it. YES! Yes I could. Best part is, I could do that with out a need for a thread. But I have other things I need to do. I don't have time to test all the options. I need to know what I am doing so I can put down the hours and not months I would need to customize the OS, so it can do I need it to be and to do with the hardware I have and then to be simply. Done. With it (with in reason). Gentoo isn't, as far as I can tell, going to be my hobby. It is a means so that I can do my job with as little of the Windows 10 all seeing eye as possible. At least that is the hope.

I get it.

(/Ice Cream)

I mean... look at this.

Code:
 $ eselect profile list
Available profile symlink targets:
  [1]   default/linux/amd64/13.0
  [2]   default/linux/amd64/13.0/selinux
  [3]   default/linux/amd64/13.0/desktop
  [4]   default/linux/amd64/13.0/desktop/gnome
  [5]   default/linux/amd64/13.0/desktop/gnome/systemd
  [6]   default/linux/amd64/13.0/desktop/kde
  [7]   default/linux/amd64/13.0/desktop/kde/systemd
  [8]   default/linux/amd64/13.0/desktop/plasma
  [9]   default/linux/amd64/13.0/desktop/plasma/systemd
  [10]  default/linux/amd64/13.0/developer
  [11]  default/linux/amd64/13.0/no-multilib *
  [12]  default/linux/amd64/13.0/systemd
  [13]  default/linux/amd64/13.0/x32
  [14]  hardened/linux/amd64
  [15]  hardened/linux/amd64/selinux
  [16]  hardened/linux/amd64/no-multilib
  [17]  hardened/linux/amd64/no-multilib/selinux
  [18]  hardened/linux/amd64/x32
  [19]  hardened/linux/musl/amd64
  [20]  hardened/linux/musl/amd64/x32
  [21]  default/linux/uclibc/amd64
  [22]  hardened/linux/uclibc/amd64


When I first got here... this meant NOTHING to me. In some of these cases they still don't. THESE are OPTIONS! WHAT ARE THEY!!!!!!!

WHAT is the DIFFERENCE BETWEEN "hardened/linux/musl/amd64" and "default/linux/amd64/13.0/no-multilib *"? Or "default/linux/amd64/13.0/desktop/gnome" to "default/linux/amd64/13.0/desktop/gnome/systemd"?

https://i.imgur.com/xXnEbdJ.gif

THAT IS MY ISSUE. I LOOK AT THIS AND I DO NOT COMPREHEND! Why? BECAUSE I'm A NOOB. I want to understand so that I can make intelligent choices and customize Gentoo.

https://i.imgur.com/rSzwCgK.gif

SO HOW IN THE WORLD AM I SUPPOSED TO INSTALL IF I DON'T UNDERSTAND MY OPTIONS!!!!

Oh. My. LAWD. If this doesn't do it. And yes. Again - I know about the hand book. As I mentioned, before I got here most of those options meant nothing. Shoot, lets look at amd64 parts. That isn't AMD particular, and is just named that way because AMD were the ones that did the 64 bit thing first so they got to name it. Did not know that. That is interesting. That stops me from coming into here and asking, herp derp... Where is the Intell64? NOOB!

And I can gather now thanks to the information gathering I did yesterday, that some of those lines involve the GUI.

*Sigh*

So then. Please reiterate what I am saying before you rebut. Maybe I'm just thicker then molasses in an ice box, but lets make sure we are on the same page at least. Oy vey!

I'm getting a drink all. And maybe some ice cream.

NeddySeagoon wrote:
You will learn more playing with Gentoo that talking about it. Make yourself a VirtualBox Gentoo guest with a 40GB HDD and try it.


Amen. Would if I could. Would have started months ago. Would have had time to solve the delemma I have now. Hopefully I'll be able to do it soon. Hopefully.

Expect lots of Questions. As soon as I teach my self how to set up and use a VM. ._.

Heh heh. Geez. Does watching people install Gentoo count?

------------------------------------------------------------
While not exactly relevant to this thread per say, I am getting the feeling that It would be a good idea to link to my first post I made here a few days ago in Off the Wall So here it is.
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Jaglover
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2016 3:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
SO HOW IN THE WORLD AM I SUPPOSED TO INSTALL IF I DON'T UNDERSTAND MY OPTIONS!!!!
You are not supposed to install without understanding your options. :P
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2016 10:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OverMyHead,

Don't even think about designing your install on paper before you execute it.
You will need to play with Gentoo a little to get the feel for it to be able to make some of your decisions.
Also, in the time it takes to do a theoretical design, Gentoo will change. It actually changes every 30 minutes.

Do a handbook install as far as booting your own kernel. Once that's complete, you start to make choices.
Until that stage, all Gentoo installs have a lot in common.
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cboldt
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2016 12:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The profiles set up default settings for installing and maintaining the software on your system. From your remarks, you are planning to have a more or less "regular" desktop system. So, the default settings should stay away from hardened system and embedded system (uclibc).

The differences, as one works down the list of "default" profiles, are designed to reduce the amount of manual setting of package build parameters (I think mostly USE flags that come into play as each software package is built). Since you don;t know what you want, and you don't know linux, you should choose a broad default, #3.

If you picked #5, your system would build with a systemd boot arrangement (don't worry about what that is right now), making the choice of some other boot sequence method (openrc for example, again, don't worry about what that is) more difficult at least. It would also boot with USE settings for the gnome desktop, making choices of other desktops more difficult.

I don't have the time or inclination to help you decide what is most important, or "the preferred flavor" for you. It takes longer to describe many of the options than to try them (not always the case, more below, on choice of desktop); and if you got 10 people to answer, they would argue amongst themselves about which is best. Eat in or out? What cuisine? What from the menu? How would you like that cooked? Side dishes? Any desert? No, I don't like ice cream, what else have you got? Any squash pie?

I am averse to systemd (think of that as not liking gin but loving vodka), and the bloat of gnome and KDE desktops. I personally run a fvwm desktop (by the way, the desktop is a REALLY CRITICAL decision for look and feel), and have installed XFCE desktops on computers used by family members. I strongly urge you to NOT choose fvwm. It is a tinkerers desktop. Fast, powerful, user configurable. If you want to play with both gnome and KDE, I urge you to do that from something other than "building a gentoo layout" with each, and what I am picturing is using a boot CD like KNOPPIX for one, and some other distro for another.

My sense is you are migrating from a Win 7 or Win XP environment, and are looking, at least at first, for a system that is similar enough that you aren't lost. I don't know the various desktops well enough to advise you there, check the "Distro Watch" website or do a google/bing/whatever search for linux desktop comparisons.

On top of preferences for desktop, there are hundreds of other choices; plus a score or two of NECESSARY decisions if you ant to have a working network, video display, printer. Browser? I use lynx and firefox. Mail reader? I use alpine almost exclusively, but have thunderbird. Mail server? (you may not want this, I do, because my computer serves my mail to my desktop reader, and to my remote tablet) dovecot. Mail delivery agent? (You have to have one of these unless you don't do any e-mail around your machine but instead "do it all" in the cloud"). On the "heavyweight" mail server, postfix. On the laptop, exim. You may want to use "text-based" applications. I sue lots of them (alpine and lynx are text-based) Your choice of text terminal is yet another. I use urxvt, many people prefer xterm. Do you want to "share" or "borrow" between linux and WIN machines on your network? Install samba. Connected to the internet? You'll want a firewall! Again, a dozen choices. And that is just a random "tip of the iceberg." Literally hundreds of choices. Do you like lima beans?

If you pick some other distro, like KNOPPIX or Mint, these choices are made for you. Makes it easy. If you don't like making lots of choices, then pick a distro or two. After you figure what (details) you like and don't like among a few distros, you'll get a feel for what (details) you like and dislike.

Quick pitch for gentoo ... I started with linux on slackware (remote systems) and Redhat. Installing new resources was tricky, and over time, the system hemmed itself in against being revised. I moved to Mandriva. Same problem over time. Somebody suggested gentoo, and I have been running gentoo for more than a decade. It in no way has "hemmed itself in." There are no "dependency hell" issues that close off certain combinations of choice. But gentoo takes a significant amount of work. I like it because I am fascinated by "how it works," and I don't like being shut off from controlling "how it works." With gentoo, it is easy to look under the hood (once you know how) and make things as you want. But it was not easy or quick to get from "no clue" to this point.

Gentoo is not fast food, or even restaurant food. It is more like going to the market and choosing ingredients.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2016 5:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OverMyHead wrote:
That stops me from coming into here and asking, herp derp... Where is the Intell64? NOOB!

That's explained in the manual. I think you'll find a lot of the things you're YELLING AT US FRANTICALLY about are in there too.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 10, 2016 12:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ant P. wrote:
OverMyHead wrote:
That stops me from coming into here and asking, herp derp... Where is the Intell64? NOOB!

That's explained in the manual. I think you'll find a lot of the things you're YELLING AT US FRANTICALLY about are in there too.


Thank you for the good chuckle. I needed that.

OverMyHead wrote:
And yes. Again - I know about the hand book. As I mentioned, before I got here most of those options meant nothing. Shoot, lets look at amd64 parts. That isn't AMD particular, and is just named that way because AMD were the ones that did the 64 bit thing first so they got to name it. Did not know that. That is interesting. That stops me from coming into here and asking, herp derp... Where is the Intell64? NOOB!


----------------------------------------------------------------------------

In re-reading this entire thread top to bottom, well. It finally sunk in. With a mighty *THUNK* might I add. I guess I really was asking for, as John R. Graham put it, "a list of all possible chess games". In my rebuttal to this I say "I'm just looking to find out what the main pieces are and what they can do". I made that comment with a usual hunger for knowledge, but without consideration of the scope of what I was asking, in part due to general ignorance. John R. Graham also commented, when I made comment to the curious nature of NeddySeagoons "the packages you need to support the packages you want". I wouldn't need to know, saith John, Portage would handle the dependencies. This answer, also confused me in my noobish ignorance. How would I not need to know to know?

What failed to occur to me, in till now, in part thanks to some of the recent comments made in between this comment and my last (which is not to discount all the comments in this thread), was that the pieces are the game. While it may definitely be nice If I knew what all the pieces did, there are a lot of pieces and interactions in-between those pieces, some of which can't(?) be known. So... in a way in asking for what each possible Gentoo option does is in the same way, due to interactions, like asking for a list of all moves. That's what my brain has logically put out anyway.

Thus my question is solved as I ask too much. Though if there are any simpler things, which would probably be more front end, such as GiMP or Blender that work with Linux, it would be appreciated. Most of the open source programs I have come across in my Linux research I have never even heard of.

NeddySeagoon wrote:
OverMyHead,

Don't even think about designing your install on paper before you execute it.
You will need to play with Gentoo a little to get the feel for it to be able to make some of your decisions.
Also, in the time it takes to do a theoretical design, Gentoo will change. It actually changes every 30 minutes.

Do a handbook install as far as booting your own kernel. Once that's complete, you start to make choices.
Until that stage, all Gentoo installs have a lot in common.


So in other words, Don't think! Feeeel!, or even just poke it. The computer won't blow up... probably.

Gentoo changes every 30 minutes? O_o

cboldt wrote:
*LOTS OF TEXT*


I'm not quoting the mass of text that cboldt posted. Yet with such said, I thank you cboldt. Your post helped. In fact, I Thank you as well John R. Graham, Naib, and NeddySeagoon. Thanks for your comments and putting up with my madness.

To NeddySeagoon in particular, I would like to thank for such professional warmth, yet chill of your comments. It has helped greatly. And John R. Graham... meh. :P

Before I depart from this thread, I have one more question which was only recently mentioned a little bit in the thread.

Could anyone point me in a direction so that I can tech myself about Virtual Machines? In particular the hardware requirement and set up of a virtual machine. To add, I'm currently thinking about using KVM, or really any other VM that can act as a Type 1 Bare Metal Hypervisor. It is a vital component to the eventual Linux computer I shall be building as I can't fully free myself of the windows 10 kernel.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 10, 2016 2:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OverMyHead wrote:
So in other words, Don't think! Feeeel!, or even just poke it. The computer won't blow up... probably.
More like, with Gentoo, a little bit of learning by doing helps a lot. Mind you, research helps, too, but there's a balance. The computer definitely won't blow up. Promise. :wink:
OverMyHead wrote:
Gentoo changes every 30 minutes? O_o
Gentoo is a Rolling Distribution. What that means is the changes that the developers make to Gentoo's package database (what's called the Portage Tree in Gentoo terminology) are available to users very quickly. If you sync your local copy of the Portage tree now, it'll definitely be different from what you would've gotten had you sync'd an hour ago. That said, there are safety nets: new package versions may initially appear in the tree as "hard masked" (something's broken but we're working on it), get promoted to "testing" (works in the developer's environment; may have some minor open bugs), and then become "stable" (tested by several; no open bugs). You get to choose whether to accept "testing" branch packages or just "stable" branch, and if you really want to play with a hard masked package, there are ways to do that too.

Regarding KVM, there's a Gentoo Wiki Article on that. Fair warning, though: lots of articles on the Gentoo Wiki assume a working knowledge of Gentoo, which you can only get by...well, you know the drill. :wink: Sorry; I don't have a good general article on virtual machines on tap; but if you need a safe environment to play with a Gentoo install, and you don't have a spare computer handy, I'd recommend you start with a less technically challenging VM, like VirtualBox, which you can download and install on your Windows machine in about 10 minutes flat.

- John
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