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peterius
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2018 1:09 am    Post subject: State of the Union Reply with quote

What are we doing?

I think I didn't update for a bit and, there were a whole bunch of build conflicts, and now I look and they're monumental. And I think, okay, I'll start with xorg-server, and then I see it wants ninja, which is a google joke, and meson. I would never use a google product. Some idiot at google was like "google has so much money, they're just throwing it around... I got to tell the boss I'm working on something for all this money I'm getting, I know, I'll write a totally unnecessary build environment. 'ninja' that sounds cool." And if meson fixed every single possible problem for every possible build, but I really doubt it does. I think it's just a new syntax for everyone to learn.

And then I see gentoo's github repository got hacked, and github, git meant for linux, github sells out it's open source community to microsoft for seven billion dollars... I don't think the users who made that community got a piece of that did they... but now that's microsoft, the traditional evil empire, that's github... and quite frankly, I think google is much more evil than microsoft now, google is much more insidious.

And then I get on here and people are trying not to use systemd... systemd is cancer. "Do one thing and do it well" that's a basic linux design philosophy. systemd wishes it was the linux kernel, that's all it is. We can all have etc configuration files, minimize dependencies, we don't need the systemd kool-aid.

What are we doing?

Why is it such a fight to be able to use an open source system the way we want to use it? Why are we being forced to use this or that at every turn. Who is running things, who at X11 group or whatever decided, X11, decades of development, just this raw windowing system... and wait, we need to upgrade, no... we need to "sidegrade" and start using Google crap. Who at Debian decided that they wanted to drink deep of systemd. Who at Linux allowed google to put drivers for their proprietary, in company, hardware, that no one is allowed to buy, in the damn linux kernel? How the hell did they let them do that? Can Google not patch their kernels like everyone else, or do they just have to piss on everything, like a dog marking its territory. If I string some wires together in my house, and write a driver for it, will they put it in the official Linux kernel? I doubt it.

What is Gentoo doing? Does anyone know? I see something about a less democratic process. Well, I don't know what a "democracy" is. I've never seen one. That's athens, greece in ancient times and that didn't work out for them. Everything else is Rome.

Software needs to be written for a specific purpose that it does well. The more crap you drag in, the more fads you succumb to and subscribe to, the less maintainable the software gets.

I really like the idea of Gentoo. I want to keep using it. But I want to use it because it's the user's choice what software to compile and use. I want a choice of all the non-infectious system daemons, etc.. I don't want updates to everything for the sake of a bigger number. Is there a major new feature or bug fix or not?

I remember decades ago, being told hey, OpenGL, almost sort of works on linux, but the drivers are a little spotty. Here we are, 2018, corporations smiling while they eat us, and independent game developers still say, yeah, we can't develop for linux, even without offering support. What has improved here.

What are we doing. Someone tell me.
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Ant P.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2018 1:46 am    Post subject: Re: State of the Union Reply with quote

peterius wrote:
I think I didn't update for a bit and, there were a whole bunch of build conflicts, and now I look and they're monumental. And I think, okay, I'll start with xorg-server, and then I see it wants ninja, which is a google joke, and meson. I would never use a google product. Some idiot at google was like "google has so much money, they're just throwing it around... I got to tell the boss I'm working on something for all this money I'm getting, I know, I'll write a totally unnecessary build environment. 'ninja' that sounds cool." And if meson fixed every single possible problem for every possible build, but I really doubt it does. I think it's just a new syntax for everyone to learn.

I'd love to hear your detailed critique of meson compared to imake and the readability of Xorg's configure script and how that affects anyone using Gentoo.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2018 9:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

peterius,

The original French says it very well.

plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose
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bunder
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2018 12:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm just going to quote myself here...

Quote:
the only affected tree was the one on github which users shouldn't be syncing against anyways.


Quote:
you can still use openrc


and

peterius wrote:
independent game developers still say, yeah, we can't develop for linux, even without offering support.


there are tons of linux games on steam. https://store.steampowered.com/linux
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2018 1:02 pm    Post subject: Re: State of the Union Reply with quote

Ant P. wrote:
I'd love to hear your detailed critique of meson compared to imake and the readability of Xorg's configure script and how that affects anyone using Gentoo.

Ant P. ... for me the issue is that I'm now required to have python3, and so have the additional annoyances of PYTHON_TARGETS.

best ... khay
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2018 1:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not really much of an annoyance ... at least to me.

make.conf

PYTHON_TARGETS="python2_7"
PYTHON_SINGLE_TARGET="python2_7"

which I've had that way since python 3 came along

package.use

dev-libs/liborcus python_targets_python3_6 python_single_target_python3_6
dev-python/certifi python_targets_python3_6
dev-python/setuptools python_targets_python3_6
dev-util/meson python_targets_python3_6
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2018 2:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anon-E-moose ...

thx, those are pretty much the same targets/useflags I have set ... the annoyance was more the issue that I'm prompted to add these additional deps while mesa/xorg gets increasingly crappy (I still have extreme lag since >=media-libs/mesa-13.0.5).

best ... khay
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Ant P.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2018 3:15 pm    Post subject: Re: State of the Union Reply with quote

khayyam wrote:
Ant P. ... for me the issue is that I'm now required to have python3, and so have the additional annoyances of PYTHON_TARGETS.

best ... khay

That's fair. I'm trying to slim down my PYTHON_TARGETS to a single version and there's so much stuff that only wants either 2 or 3 it's impossible. Worst offender is http-replicator, because it's stuck on one version and hooks into the Portage API, forcing that and all its deps to do the same.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 8:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually I really like meson+ninja build systems.
When the systemd crowd switched, I had to switch, too, with elogind to keep en par.

Hated that move at first! Really, I stalled as long as I could, and was really pissed off when I had no choice anymore!

But elogind builds almost twice as fast now.
And the error messages and warnings I get are better and more helpful than anything I got out of the old autotools.
Maintenance of projects using autotools is annoying as f#ck, and Meson is quite easy to set up and maintain.

So what?
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Last edited by Yamakuzure on Tue Jul 24, 2018 2:46 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 9:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yamakuzure wrote:
Actually I really like meson+ninja build systems.
When the systemd crowd switched, I had to switch, too, with elogind to keep en par.

Hated that move at first! Really, I stalled as long as I could, and was really pissed of when I had no choice anymore!

But elogind builds almost twice as fast now.
And the error messages and warnings I get are better and more helpful than anything I got out of the old autotools.
Maintenance of projects using autotools is annoying as f#ck, and Meson is quite easy to set up and maintain.

So what?


It has nothing to do with whether meson is nice or not. People might just not want python3 on their systems.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 11:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

njsg wrote:
It has nothing to do with whether meson is nice or not. People might just not want python3 on their systems.


So when developers upstream start using and posting their code for python-3, what are the gentoo devs supposed to do?
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krinn
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 1:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

axl wrote:
So when developers upstream start using and posting their code for python-3, what are the gentoo devs supposed to do?

For such huge dependency change, emit a news about it, tell users if it's avoidable, add a useflag in the ebuild if it's avoidable ; and leave their users decide if the package is no more wanted in light of that change if it's not optional.
Note that the news also indicate to his users that the dev has properly check and do the work, and the situation he describe is the reality, and not happening because the dev has been lazy (not checking if python3 was a real need, or if its avoidable).
That's sad but true, because some devs have shown lazzyness or incompetence in handling dependency with big impact on a package, and users are less prone to trust huge changes without proof.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 2:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

krinn wrote:
axl wrote:
So when developers upstream start using and posting their code for python-3, what are the gentoo devs supposed to do?

For such huge dependency change, emit a news about it, tell users if it's avoidable, add a useflag in the ebuild if it's avoidable ; and leave their users decide if the package is no more wanted in light of that change if it's not optional.
Note that the news also indicate to his users that the dev has properly check and do the work, and the situation he describe is the reality, and not happening because the dev has been lazy (not checking if python3 was a real need, or if its avoidable).
That's sad but true, because some devs have shown lazzyness or incompetence in handling dependency with big impact on a package, and users are less prone to trust huge changes without proof.


ok. fair enough.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YgtL4S7Hrwo&start=158

can you comment on this? just watch the first minute or so, and pls explain to me why. why would gentoo devs be focused on keeping python-2 which atm has about 1 and a half years of life left in it.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 2:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"I don't want python3 on my system!" ...

... Well... then it's really sad that Python-3.6 is the default target on Gentoo these days...

But jokes aside I really have no idea how it came to this. Really.
Python 2 is legacy, Python 3 is the present and future of the language

Python 3.0 was released in 2008. That was 10 years ago!
The final 2.x version 2.7 release came out in mid-2010, so 8 years ago with no further development!
Python 3.x is under active development. Version 3.6 was released in 2016.
Or in other words: All improvements are only available in Python 3.x.

This is not about "new is better", this is about what upstream declared dead or alive.

Demanding full Python-2.7-only compatibility from the Gentoo developers is like demanding full gcc-3 compatibility. It's just not working that way.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 3:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

krinn wrote:
For such huge dependency change, emit a news about it, tell users if it's avoidable, add a useflag in the ebuild if it's avoidable ; and leave their users decide if the package is no more wanted in light of that change if it's not optional.
Sure. I totally agree with you here.
But what would have been the consequences? Just dump xorg-server, because its upstream decided to use something that depends on something else you do not want? How'd they know?

Well, you do realize that this dependency change can be completely pass by unnoticed if you have a more standard setup, don't you? The only people who are hit by this are those, who have neither Python-3.5 nor Python-3.6 installed.

It's a shame that we don't have any reliable statistics here... So maybe this impact is a major oversight by the developers, or a just a mild oversight a few corner cases of special corner cases even witness, or anything in between.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 4:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

axl wrote:
can you comment on this? just watch the first minute or so, and pls explain to me why. why would gentoo devs be focused on keeping python-2 which atm has about 1 and a half years of life left in it.

Because it's still not dead, and until 2020 we will see: securities fix and support for new toolchains, while bugfixes themselves will be limit (as said, rarelly), bugfixes will still be made (i suppose only nasty ones then).

For a python developper, it could be a no go ; but for a user that don't gives any fuck about python, it's a wonderful version : nasty bugs will be fixes (and because it's an old version, all the tiny bugs has been squash since a long time), security issues always fixes and you don't gives any fuck about new functionalities, because you're not a python dev.

I'm asking you too myself: what is your interrest in python 3.6 if you are not a python dev?
Only a python dev could ask himself, WTF i need that new python 3.6 function, it ease my life so much!

If you want to know, i'm not caring myself that much about python versions, i have the 3.5 and 2.7 ; and still my default is set to 2.7. I have no interrest in python3.6 or 3.5, nor about 2.7 in fact, but 2.7 is doing the job pretty fine, that's all i care about.
But i could see why some users then may wish to keep only 2.7, while not wishing to have something they have no use for.
But i'm not a python dev, i could not even quality myself as a python user. But not every gentoo users are like me, we have gentoo users that are python devs and gentoo users that are python users (someone not developping python program but they work with a program that use python, a program that may not be happy to not having python 2.7).

It's like if someone would impose bluez on me, i'm not developping any applications that use bluetooth, still i agree bluez is useful for devs that use it.
I'm not a bluez user, i don't have any bluetooth devices, still i agree some users have bluetooth keyboard or whatever and need it.
But i understand if anyone would complain if his system is pulling bluez for no reason.
Even if someone create "kickassbluetooth" that replace bluez, with kick ass functionalities and latest bluetooth technology and features ; i would still qualitify it as useless ; so even i could agree every devs and bluetooth users would praise that new program, i would still not wishing to use this or bluez. It's not because i love live in the past, just that i have no usage of it, bluez or even the new kickassbluetooth.
But i understand if someone would complain bluez was remove while "kickassversion" have not yet reach the level where it could handle his bluetooth device : because at end, that user is just complaining that his keyboard is not working with "kickassbluetooth", making it totally useless, while if he have bluez, it work.

That's python2.7 and 3.6 status: 2.7 is not dead, and users may still have a need for it ; when in 2020 2.7 would be remove, user may still have a need for it, but it's not gentoo dev fault, it's python dev fault and also that user fault (he had time to react).
In the meantime, that very same user may have no usage (yet) of python3.6 and i could understand he then doesn't wish it.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 5:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

krinn wrote:
axl wrote:
can you comment on this? just watch the first minute or so, and pls explain to me why. why would gentoo devs be focused on keeping python-2 which atm has about 1 and a half years of life left in it.

Because it's still not dead, and until 2020 we will see: securities fix and support for new toolchains, while bugfixes themselves will be limit (as said, rarelly), bugfixes will still be made (i suppose only nasty ones then).

For a python developper, it could be a no go ; but for a user that don't gives any fuck about python, it's a wonderful version : nasty bugs will be fixes (and because it's an old version, all the tiny bugs has been squash since a long time), security issues always fixes and you don't gives any fuck about new functionalities, because you're not a python dev.

I'm asking you too myself: what is your interrest in python 3.6 if you are not a python dev?
Only a python dev could ask himself, WTF i need that new python 3.6 function, it ease my life so much!

If you want to know, i'm not caring myself that much about python versions, i have the 3.5 and 2.7 ; and still my default is set to 2.7. I have no interrest in python3.6 or 3.5, nor about 2.7 in fact, but 2.7 is doing the job pretty fine, that's all i care about.
But i could see why some users then may wish to keep only 2.7, while not wishing to have something they have no use for.
But i'm not a python dev, i could not even quality myself as a python user. But not every gentoo users are like me, we have gentoo users that are python devs and gentoo users that are python users (someone not developping python program but they work with a program that use python, a program that may not be happy to not having python 2.7).

It's like if someone would impose bluez on me, i'm not developping any applications that use bluetooth, still i agree bluez is useful for devs that use it.
I'm not a bluez user, i don't have any bluetooth devices, still i agree some users have bluetooth keyboard or whatever and need it.
But i understand if anyone would complain if his system is pulling bluez for no reason.
Even if someone create "kickassbluetooth" that replace bluez, with kick ass functionalities and latest bluetooth technology and features ; i would still qualitify it as useless ; so even i could agree every devs and bluetooth users would praise that new program, i would still not wishing to use this or bluez. It's not because i love live in the past, just that i have no usage of it, bluez or even the new kickassbluetooth.
But i understand if someone would complain bluez was remove while "kickassversion" have not yet reach the level where it could handle his bluetooth device : because at end, that user is just complaining that his keyboard is not working with "kickassbluetooth", making it totally useless, while if he have bluez, it work.

That's python2.7 and 3.6 status: 2.7 is not dead, and users may still have a need for it ; when in 2020 2.7 would be remove, user may still have a need for it, but it's not gentoo dev fault, it's python dev fault and also that user fault (he had time to react).
In the meantime, that very same user may have no usage (yet) of python3.6 and i could understand he then doesn't wish it.


I don't have to care about each little package in my gentoo. My system does and portage does. I didn't put python-3 on your system. Follow the culprit.

Go to meson website, complain to them. https://github.com/mesonbuild/meson . Ask them why they are using python-3 instead of 2. It's not a gentoo thing. It was done upstream. At this point gentoo devs would have to rewrite/fork/patch meson to work with python2. I doubt there's any interest in that.

Going further. What uses meson? Out of my packages I can see: dev-libs/libinput (complain to them coz they use meson, tell them meson is evil and uses python-3, again do you expect gentoo to fork libinput to avoid meson). fuse-common. xorg-proto. libdrm. quite a few packages that use meson. Can you live without them? no. Can you blame gentoo for it? no.

And that bluetooth thing I do not understand. Mine works fine. Both keyboard, mouse, gps AND my headphones. So... sorry. simply don't understand the rant.

The only thing you could accuse me of is that I'm not that bothered to have 2 python versions on my system. My expectation of gentoo is not to offer me the python2 experience; my expectation of gentoo is to allow me to use relatively modern software. From this year and from git. If you need a distro that keeps old versions of stuff, gentoo is not it. Never was.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 6:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not interested in the back and forth love-fest :lol:
---
But I do have a question, how would one easily find all packages that depend on a particular version of python (only 2.7 or only 3.6, etc)
And secondarily how to find all packages that need python, regardless of which version.
---

As an aside, I was running a python 2.7 only system ... well, until meson came along (that we didn't get notification I've already voiced in another thread and I don't believe in beating a dead horse) but to date out of all packages that need python that I have installed I'm only using python3 on 4 packages, meson among them.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 6:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anon-E-moose wrote:
I'm not interested in the back and forth love-fest :lol:
---
But I do have a question, how would one easily find all packages that depend on a particular version of python (only 2.7 or only 3.6, etc)
And secondarily how to find all packages that need python, regardless of which version.
---

As an aside, I was running a python 2.7 only system ... well, until meson came along (that we didn't get notification I've already voiced in another thread and I don't believe in beating a dead horse) but 2 date out of all I have installed I'm only using python3 on 4 packages, meson among them.


equery depends. like equery depends/d dev-lang/python or equery d dev-lang/python-2 and so on.

But I think another more useful method would be emerge -NuvDep world | grep python2 | grep -v python3 and viceversa.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 6:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

for packa in `emerge -NuvDep world | grep -v python2 | grep python3 | gawk '{print $4;}'`; do equery d $packa; for packb in `equery d $packa`; do equery d $packb; done; done

try this out.

It will first display which packages depend compile with python3 only and not python2, which packages depend on that and further more which depend on those dependencies. enjoy.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 7:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anon-E-moose wrote:
[...] how would one easily find all packages that depend on a particular version of python (only 2.7 or only 3.6, etc)

Anon-E-moose ... something like the following:

Code:
% eix --only-names --exact --installed-with-use --substring python2 --and --not --substring --use python3

... though it might be better to target the USE_EXPAND 'python_targets_pythonX_X':

Code:
% eix --only-names --exact --installed-with-use --substring python_targets_python3_6 --and --not --substring --use python_targets_python2_7

Anon-E-moose wrote:
And secondarily how to find all packages that need python, regardless of which version.

Similarly ...

Code:
% eix --only-names --exact --installed-with-use --substring python2 --and --substring --use python3

Code:
% eix --only-names --exact --installed-with-use --substring python_targets_python3_6 --and --substring --use python_targets_python2_7

HTH & best ... khay
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 7:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

krinn wrote:
axl wrote:
So when developers upstream start using and posting their code for python-3, what are the gentoo devs supposed to do?

For such huge dependency change, emit a news about it, tell users if it's avoidable, add a useflag in the ebuild if it's avoidable ; and leave their users decide if the package is no more wanted in light of that change if it's not optional.
Note that the news also indicate to his users that the dev has properly check and do the work, and the situation he describe is the reality, and not happening because the dev has been lazy (not checking if python3 was a real need, or if its avoidable).
That's sad but true, because some devs have shown lazzyness or incompetence in handling dependency with big impact on a package, and users are less prone to trust huge changes without proof.


I'd add: also don't remove old versions that make it possible to keep things working while avoiding the dependency change just to "get rid of the old dependency". This has been seen both for gtk+2 vs. gtk+3 and qt4 vs. qt5 in Gentoo.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 7:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yamakuzure wrote:

This is not about "new is better", this is about what upstream declared dead or alive.


Fortunately, upstream has no power on deciding what users actually want to use. Python2 doesn't become useless just because upstream says so.
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njsg
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 7:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anon-E-moose wrote:
I'm not interested in the back and forth love-fest :lol:
---
But I do have a question, how would one easily find all packages that depend on a particular version of python (only 2.7 or only 3.6, etc)
And secondarily how to find all packages that need python, regardless of which version.
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As an aside, I was running a python 2.7 only system ... well, until meson came along (that we didn't get notification I've already voiced in another thread and I don't believe in beating a dead horse) but to date out of all packages that need python that I have installed I'm only using python3 on 4 packages, meson among them.


Code:
emerge -pvc python:3.X
?
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Naib
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 7:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

whats wrong with python3?
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