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| Would (did) you switch back to portage after installing paludis? |
| 1. I stay with paludis |
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61% |
[ 258 ] |
| 2. I switched back to portage |
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38% |
[ 161 ] |
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| Total Votes : 419 |
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jonnevers
Veteran
Joined: 02 Jan 2003
Posts: 1594
Location: Gentoo64 land
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 Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 2:13 pm Post subject: |
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| truc wrote: | | jonnevers wrote: | | (if you wanted it to default yes, you'd just have run it without the -a flag anyway...) |
This is just wrong, most of the time I don't need to cancel, but sometimes, I'm not satisfied (want to change use flags or something), then I type 'n' to cancel the whole thing. Why would I want to run it twice, when just pressing 'enter' is enough most of the time? |
who cares? do whatever you want. I certainly don't care if you don't want to run emerge twice. big whoooooop. All I was saying, is don't pretend that is interactivity. It's not. |
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truc
Advocate
Joined: 25 Jul 2005
Posts: 3199
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| Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 2:51 pm Post subject: |
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my point wasn't to describe what I prefer, it was more to show that this very particular thing you said was stupid...
There is no reason why the default should be yes or no. But, I do agry, that's not really what I'd call interactivity...
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jonnevers
Veteran
Joined: 02 Jan 2003
Posts: 1594
Location: Gentoo64 land
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| Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 3:06 pm Post subject: |
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| truc wrote: | my point wasn't to describe what I prefer, it was more to show that this very particular thing you said was stupid...
There is no reason why the default should be yes or no. But, I do agry, that's not really what I'd call interactivity... |
"stupid" is a bit strong. don't you think? I happen to agree with the paludis devs in why they removed that flag... |
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Conan
Guru
Joined: 02 Nov 2004
Posts: 360
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| Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 5:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Paapaa wrote: | | Conan wrote: | | The reason I switched back from paludis is because Ciaran is designing a package manager to fit an ideal situation, not one that will fit every situation. He is using the devmanual (which he wrote) and paludis (which he wrote) to bring change to gentoo. I don't feel comfortable being at the whim of someone who does this. At least with portage I know the developers there won't break things on a whim because "the ebuilds are doing things wrong," they will try to fix the ebuilds. |
Interesting. I have the exact opposite opinion, however. I think it is a great thing that finally someone tries to set up rules and standardize the whole thing (ie. the ability to use some other package manager than Portage). How on earth can that be a bad idea? And what exactly has Paludis broke? |
KEYWORDS="-*" for one.
Portage added a warning about using it, with probably plans to remove it further in the future. paludis removed it entirely. This broke stuff until things were changed. |
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Paapaa
l33t
Joined: 14 Aug 2005
Posts: 955
Location: Finland
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| Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 6:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Conan wrote: | | Portage added a warning about using it, with probably plans to remove it further in the future. paludis removed it entirely. This broke stuff until things were changed. |
Yes, a warning would always be adviceable even when removing broken features or broken behaviour if it affects the user. But wasn't this thing fixed in 0.14.2? |
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boniek
Guru
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 373
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Lloeki
Guru
Joined: 14 Jun 2006
Posts: 437
Location: France
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| Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 7:34 pm Post subject: |
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tried paludis, switched back to portage.
now that pkgcore hit 2.2, emerged that yesterday.
some rough edges, but I prefer it to paludis. no troll, just my PoV.
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justwantstohelp
Apprentice
Joined: 29 Jun 2006
Posts: 251
Location: Sacramento, California
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| Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 10:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Conan wrote: | | Paapaa wrote: | | Conan wrote: | | The reason I switched back from paludis is because Ciaran is designing a package manager to fit an ideal situation, not one that will fit every situation. He is using the devmanual (which he wrote) and paludis (which he wrote) to bring change to gentoo. I don't feel comfortable being at the whim of someone who does this. At least with portage I know the developers there won't break things on a whim because "the ebuilds are doing things wrong," they will try to fix the ebuilds. |
Interesting. I have the exact opposite opinion, however. I think it is a great thing that finally someone tries to set up rules and standardize the whole thing (ie. the ability to use some other package manager than Portage). How on earth can that be a bad idea? And what exactly has Paludis broke? |
KEYWORDS="-*" for one.
Portage added a warning about using it, with probably plans to remove it further in the future. paludis removed it entirely. This broke stuff until things were changed. |
You can just use "*"(http://paludis.pioto.org/faq.html#unmask). But this is abused, so I can see why it's not standard practice.
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Shadow Skill
Veteran
Joined: 04 Dec 2004
Posts: 1023
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| Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 12:15 am Post subject: |
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| zxy wrote: | @Shadow Skill
@jonnevers
and others. The ask hook is being upgraded. Now it is in testing phase for at least a few hours more, but may be a day, too. Things you wanted and other options will be accessible through a configuration file from now on. 
Thanks for giving a boost, as this was being worked on for some time now.
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About not giving a reson for switching back
I would create a pool of a different kind if I could. It would be requested to obtain a reason for switching back to portage, but the forums do not support it AFAIK.
During some time, it will be pretty obvious how many people do not give a reason when they vote, so I will add that results to the first post (I think I can)
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@jonnevers I think a gui was in the making by ciaranm some time ago. I don't know what is the status now. |
That's good to know I hope my criticism did not come across as harsh. Its just that this has been one of my problems with portage for the past few years. It's nice to know someone finally listened... Keep up the good work with Paludis.
_________________
Ware wa mutekinari.
Wa ga kage waza ni kanau mono nashi.
Wa ga ichigeki wa mutekinari.
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arpunk
n00b
Joined: 13 Jun 2006
Posts: 61
Location: Colombia
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| Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 2:17 am Post subject: |
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| Conan wrote: | | The reason I switched back from paludis is because Ciaran is designing a package manager to fit an ideal situation, not one that will fit every situation. He is using the devmanual (which he wrote) and paludis (which he wrote) to bring change to gentoo. I don't feel comfortable being at the whim of someone who does this. At least with portage I know the developers there won't break things on a whim because "the ebuilds are doing things wrong," they will try to fix the ebuilds. |
Well, i think its the other way around. Paludis is designed to work, no matter what situation and since the devmanual *is* the recommended resource for ebuild writting (official) then it makes sence that the same author knows what he's doing. Remember that portage is rather a bunch of mixed/hacked code in some places, so things could behave differently and making it break... just because its the official package manager doesnt mean its better than the others. |
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micr0c0sm
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 29 Oct 2005
Posts: 148
Location: New York
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| Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 2:37 am Post subject: |
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| Lloeki wrote: | tried paludis, switched back to portage.
now that pkgcore hit 2.2, emerged that yesterday.
some rough edges, but I prefer it to paludis. no troll, just my PoV. |
Wait, so pkgcore is usuable as a drop in replacement now?
... I'm eager to try it out
Mind making an impressions of pkgcore thread with a little introduction on what you like / dislike and whats different ? |
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justwantstohelp
Apprentice
Joined: 29 Jun 2006
Posts: 251
Location: Sacramento, California
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| Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 4:18 am Post subject: |
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| micr0c0sm wrote: | | Lloeki wrote: | tried paludis, switched back to portage.
now that pkgcore hit 2.2, emerged that yesterday.
some rough edges, but I prefer it to paludis. no troll, just my PoV. |
Wait, so pkgcore is usuable as a drop in replacement now?
... I'm eager to try it out
Mind making an impressions of pkgcore thread with a little introduction on what you like / dislike and whats different ? |
He uses pkgcore because cokehabit told him to.
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Conan
Guru
Joined: 02 Nov 2004
Posts: 360
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| Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 4:24 am Post subject: |
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| arpunk wrote: | | Conan wrote: | | The reason I switched back from paludis is because Ciaran is designing a package manager to fit an ideal situation, not one that will fit every situation. He is using the devmanual (which he wrote) and paludis (which he wrote) to bring change to gentoo. I don't feel comfortable being at the whim of someone who does this. At least with portage I know the developers there won't break things on a whim because "the ebuilds are doing things wrong," they will try to fix the ebuilds. |
Well, i think its the other way around. Paludis is designed to work, no matter what situation and since the devmanual *is* the recommended resource for ebuild writting (official) then it makes sence that the same author knows what he's doing. Remember that portage is rather a bunch of mixed/hacked code in some places, so things could behave differently and making it break... just because its the official package manager doesnt mean its better than the others. |
Your spouting silly drivel.
The package manager works with the tree. The tree doesn't work with the package manager. If something is wrong in the tree, the way to fix it is not by changing the package manager and then waiting for things to break. The way to do it is in steps. repoman had a keywords.stupid warning added about KEYWORDS="-*" a few versions before paludis reported it. After enough time it would have been phased out of the tree entirely, /after/ the tree was fixed to work with the new way of doing things. Instead paludis decided to just remove the support, breaking anyone who used ebuilds with KEYWORDS="-*". The fact that it was fixed in the next version doesn't matter. It was still broken on a whim, and it will be again. Keep in mind ciaran is not developing a package manager for the masses, he's designing a package manager for himself. |
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Shadow Skill
Veteran
Joined: 04 Dec 2004
Posts: 1023
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| Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 4:35 am Post subject: |
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I think the only person spouting drivel here is you Conan; is Paludis perfect by no means, do I agree with all of the behaviors of Paludis no, but how is a package manager that does not take an eternity to calculate dependencies, has allowed for custom package set creation (easily) for maybe two or three versions (probably much longer.) which makes updating so on and so forth much easier not a package manager for the masses?
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Ware wa mutekinari.
Wa ga kage waza ni kanau mono nashi.
Wa ga ichigeki wa mutekinari.
"First there was nothing, so the lord gave us light. There was still nothing, but at least you could see it." |
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mark_alec
Bodhisattva
Joined: 11 Sep 2004
Posts: 6066
Location: Melbourne, Australia
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| Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 6:09 am Post subject: |
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| Conan wrote: | | Your spouting silly drivel. |
I think that you can be more courteous in future and not resort to borderline attacks; improve your attitude.
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Paapaa
l33t
Joined: 14 Aug 2005
Posts: 955
Location: Finland
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| Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 6:42 am Post subject: |
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| Conan wrote: | | Your spouting silly drivel. |
That is an odd attitude. So Paludis sucks and is written on a whim because it misbehaved for 2 days - (while basically still being in beta phase...) - and the thing that actually was broken was the tree. It would be nice to know if there has been any 2 day periods where Portage was broken during the early days of its development? Nevermind, I don't care. That is why Paludis is still called 0.X, not 1.X.
| Conan wrote: | | Keep in mind ciaran is not developing a package manager for the masses, he's designing a package manager for himself. |
You mean in the same way Linus was designing an OS for himself on a whim to do things Minix couldn't do? |
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Lloeki
Guru
Joined: 14 Jun 2006
Posts: 437
Location: France
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| Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 8:54 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Mind making an impressions of pkgcore thread with a little introduction on what you like / dislike and whats different ? |
here it is
| Quote: | | He uses pkgcore because cokehabit told him to. |
I try pkgcore because paludis did not match my needs, and I wanted to try an alternative.
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Paapaa
l33t
Joined: 14 Aug 2005
Posts: 955
Location: Finland
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| Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 12:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Lloeki wrote: | | I try pkgcore because paludis did not match my needs, and I wanted to try an alternative. |
Could you elaborate a bit more. In order to make all package managers (not just Paludis) better you should tell what needs you had and why couldn't Portage or Paludis fullfill them. |
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gour
Apprentice
Joined: 16 Apr 2003
Posts: 231
Location: Zagreb, Croatia
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| Posted: Fri Feb 09, 2007 12:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Paapaa wrote: | I wonder why those who voted NO switched back to portage. They left no comments. There is always the suspicion that they never even tried Paludis in the first place...  |
Right. I'm the one who didn't even bother to try Paludis and upgraded to pkgcore 
Reason 
Well, #pkgcore is much user-friendlier place for asking questions & getting answers than #paludis where one quickly gets banned by fbi 
So, it is not just quality of the software, but the rudeness/politenss of devs as well
Sincerely,
Gour |
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Lloeki
Guru
Joined: 14 Jun 2006
Posts: 437
Location: France
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| Posted: Fri Feb 09, 2007 12:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Could you elaborate a bit more. |
no, at least not in this thread, whose point is not comparing paludis to others. anyway, if I were exposing my views (which in fact, I have done in other places), they would have a high chance of being misinterpreted, and the thread would likely end up in ruins.
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Life is meant to be lived, not given up...
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Paapaa
l33t
Joined: 14 Aug 2005
Posts: 955
Location: Finland
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| Posted: Fri Feb 09, 2007 12:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Lloeki wrote: | | Quote: | | Could you elaborate a bit more. |
no, at least not in this thread, whose point is not comparing paludis to others. anyway, if I were exposing my views (which in fact, I have done in other places), they would have a high chance of being misinterpreted, and the thread would likely end up in ruins. |
Well, the thread title is "Are you satisfied with Paludis?". You don't have to compare anything just tell a bit more why Paludis didn't "match your needs". That should be 100% on-topic. I can only speak for myself but I'm only interest in technical merits so discussing them shouldn't cause serious damage And I'm not defending Paludis just very interested in various Portage alternatives.
| gour wrote: | Well, #pkgcore is much user-friendlier place for asking questions & getting answers than #paludis where one quickly gets banned by fbi
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Usually, but not always, people get banned because they didn't read or comprehend the channel rules. |
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spb
Retired Dev
Joined: 02 Jan 2004
Posts: 2135
Location: Cambridge, UK
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| Posted: Fri Feb 09, 2007 3:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Conan wrote: | | Instead paludis decided to just remove the support, breaking anyone who used ebuilds with KEYWORDS="-*". |
Removed what support, exactly ? |
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antarus
Retired Dev
Joined: 16 May 2005
Posts: 77
Location: Michigan
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| Posted: Sat Feb 10, 2007 2:43 am Post subject: |
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Being a portage developer (and a pkgcore weirdo) I tend to run pkgcore on my dev system and paludis/portage/pkgcore on random machines (particularly miranda.amd64.dev.gentoo.org).
I think my main complaint with paludis is the migration phase (irritating to me becauase portage is what i currently have and pkgcore has a decent 'lets read the portage config' code module). I love the backtraces from libebt(sp?) and I love the hooks (I actually just ported the hooks into ebuild.sh; awaiting approval to merge into trunk).
I think paludis is a great tool; it's not the tool for me only because myself and the paludis developers disagree on a few items regarding etiquette and how to implement a package manager. And both of those things are cool and I hope they continue to have success with their tools (and I'll continue to mess with it).
In either case having alternatives has pushed portage, paludis, and pkgcore development a lot further than having just one. I think that is beneficial for users of any PM. |
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gimpel
Advocate
Joined: 15 Oct 2004
Posts: 2720
Location: Munich, Bavaria
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| Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 4:11 pm Post subject: |
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So, I tried it, I really like it, but for now I switched back to portage and play with pkgcore, which is superfast too.
absolute pros:
* -u --with-unused-dependencies: this just rocks.
* it's faster than portage resolving deps and such
* dependencies seem more consistent
cons:
* paludis --sync with some overlays and update-eix.bash takes way over 15minutes here, layman -s ALL && eix-sync just ~3minutes
* documentation: I miss a lot..
- If a set isn't a list of packages, how does a set look like then? Some examples would be cool. I think of a set for the enlightenment CVS overlay that needs recompiling.. well, a list of packages in a certain order
- It says use.conf.d/*.conf is included by default, not the case if portage2paludis.bash was used, and I can't find how to add that afterwards on the homepage.
- How the heck do I get my ELOG stuff back in a fashion elogviewer can handle it?
- so documentation should always be written from the users PoV, not from a dev's, and should be written for complete DAUs (no idea what DAU in English means, most stupid user that one can expect, something like that)
Those might actually be non-issues, beside the docs.
Maybe it's just the fact that I got used to portage over the last years.. humans and their habit...
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crdlb
n00b
Joined: 20 Apr 2004
Posts: 39
Location: Virginia Beach, VA, USA
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| Posted: Thu Feb 15, 2007 2:10 am Post subject: |
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| gimpel wrote: | | * paludis --sync with some overlays and update-eix.bash takes way over 15minutes here, layman -s ALL && eix-sync just ~3minutes |
'paludis --sync' (or 'paludis -s') is the equivalent of 'emerge --sync && layman -s ALL'. With a single command, you can sync all your repositories including the main portage tree. If you only want to update your overlays, you need to run 'paludis -s gnome sunrise mozilla' (put the names of your overlays here). That command (with a large update to both sunrise and gnome) took only 4m13s on my computer. |
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