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loki99
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2006 12:06 pm    Post subject: Restaffing the 11th Userrep seat! Reply with quote

As you might have noticed or heard, cokehabit isn't part of the Userreps project any longer. He and Userel obviously didn't get along very well and there has been some troubles on IRC and on bugzilla, which I didn't get a chance to see though. But I talked shortly with cokehabit about it and he didn't object to leave the project, so we have a vacant Userreps seat atm.

Since this is the first time that one of us left, we have to find a rule on how we are to restaff that vacant seat. Impov, there are three different options that we have. We could either go thru the whole voting process again, which seem to be quite some work and would definitely need some time or we could simply ask the ones that where next on the list from the initial vote, to see if they are still interested in doing the job or we let the appointed Userreps decide who they want to have in their team to work with.

Even though the voting idea seems to be the logical thing to do, at least to me when I first thought about it, it's the option I really don't want to have and almost everyone from Userreps/Userrel agrees on this point. It would just take to much time and effort, since we don't want the mistakes of the first vote be repeated, like having better announcements and getting the whole user community not just forum peeps to vote.

Picking the next one on the list that shows interest, is an option that doesn't take much time and seems to be fair since they have proven to have the support in the user community at the first vote.

The third option is to let us Userreps pick someone we know and that has shown interest in our project. And plainly spoken, this is the option I favor the most, as does the rest of Userreps and Userrel. Here is why:

Building up a team with people that hardly know each other is not an easy task. It took us quite some time to get to know each other and to find a way to work somehow efficiently together. We are different to any other project in Gentoo land because we did not pick our team by ourself, but let others, you the user community, choose our team. That's the way it has to be of course but it's a handicap, nevertheless.

Since the whole project was started there has only been one user, who also ran for Userreps btw, that followed our moves very closely. He is in our channel (#gentoo-userreps) almost all the time, he takes part in all our and userrel meetings, he is well known and respected in the devs community, he made lots of useful suggestion and took the time to write various concepts for his ideas, all of us Userreps value him and his opinion quite high and we get along with him very well.

After the 11th seat got vacant, there wasn't really any discussion about it since it was obvious that we all wanted to have djay (aka djay-il [irc] aka Alex Bogak [rl]) as our new team member. Most of the devs believed that he was a Userrep anyways because he showed up at all the meetings and actively took part in all the discussions. :lol: And Userrel also seems to strongly agree with this idea.

So I am here to ask your support to make djay our 11th member on the next Userreps/Userrel meeting this Saturday. He knows his way around and we know him quite well and he would fit just perfect in our team. If you want us to move on, to do the things we were voted for as fast as possible, please show us your support by dropping a few lines. If you think that this is not ok, please drop us a few lines to explain why.

I will post the same on the gentoo-user ML so that those peeps can take part in the discussion too and will ask #gentoo to mention this here in their topic. Sorry for the long post and thanks for reading it. :wink:

sticky - mark_alec 1 Dec 2006
unstuck - mark_alec 5 Dec 2006
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Headrush
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2006 1:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Since these positions are voted on, I would think that that method used to fill the vacant spot would be to work down the list of vote getters from the most recent election. This would keep with the original idea of user reps being chosen by users.

Having said that, personally I don't have an issue if djay is added.
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loki99
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2006 2:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Headrush wrote:
Since these positions are voted on, I would think that that method used to fill the vacant spot would be to work down the list of vote getters from the most recent election. This would keep with the original idea of user reps being chosen by users.

Having said that, personally I don't have an issue if djay is added.

I agree that picking the next one on the list would better adhere to the original idea, but of pragmatic reason I think letting us choose the substitutes within one term, is more benefical to the project.

Thanks for not objecting. ;)
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pilla
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2006 4:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Leaving for userreps to choose their peers doesn't look sane for me. Imagine a congress where congressmen would be elected, but after that could kick some of their peers in favour of somebody they know/like better.

If you have to choose a new userrep, I'd go for the next one in the voting rank, or call a new election.

Besides, I'm still to understand the reason and the process behind cokehabit's expulsion. It seemed to be somewhat faster than what I have previously seen, and I was unable to access information with the full reasoning that made cokehabit leave. Somebody told me christel would send an email explaining it, but I couldn't find it.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2006 4:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

loki99 wrote:
...I agree that picking the next one on the list would better adhere to the original idea, but of pragmatic reason I think letting us choose the substitutes within one term, is more benefical to the project.


I confess I don't understand why it is less beneficial to choose the substitute from the list of runner-up candidates.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2006 5:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kojiro wrote:
loki99 wrote:
...I agree that picking the next one on the list would better adhere to the original idea, but of pragmatic reason I think letting us choose the substitutes within one term, is more benefical to the project.


I confess I don't understand why it is less beneficial to choose the substitute from the list of runner-up candidates.

The election didn't exactly produce a brilliant result, given what happened with the most popular candidate... Appointment by a combination of userrel and existing userreps is less likely to make such a mistake.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2006 5:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the proper thing is to choose the next runner-up. Just as in any other election process, the runner-up gets the crown.

[edit]
After remembering the voting process last time, I think letting both the userrep and the userrel choose the person to be better. 1) The voting process wasn't exactly a sucesss 2) an outside group is also apart of the decission, not just the userrel.

What needs to happen in the future is a documented process for not only electing positions, but what happens in situations like this.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2006 5:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pilla wrote:
Leaving for userreps to choose their peers doesn't look sane for me. Imagine a congress where congressmen would be elected, but after that could kick some of their peers in favour of somebody they know/like better.

In theory I agree with this but I figured that this term is less than a year and its not that user reps have that much power anyways. (Not quite as powerful as congressman atleast. ;) )

Seeing as how limited the voting was for the initial user reps and the apparent lack of interest or understanding of the position anyways, maybe a middle ground solution would work. Having the userreps "dominate" djay, have a simple vote on just accepting their suggestion of him. The people interested still have a say. If you use this method for short term vacancies, and a pattern develops that usereps are using this to change the members, voters can put a stop to it if they so chose.

I think having a full vote again is just overkill.
Although I had a strong opinion on who I voted for originally, i think like most elections of any kind, its always a bit of a crap shoot anyways.
How much do we ever really know about politician or userrep. :-) They tend to be popularity contests.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2006 5:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pilla wrote:
Leaving for userreps to choose their peers doesn't look sane for me. Imagine a congress where congressmen would be elected, but after that could kick some of their peers in favour of somebody they know/like better.

++

pilla wrote:
If you have to choose a new userrep, I'd go for the next one in the voting rank, or call a new election.

New election sounds like an overkill, so i'd go for the next one or just leave it empty.
Are there any rules for how this should be handled yet?

pilla wrote:
Besides, I'm still to understand the reason and the process behind cokehabit's expulsion. It seemed to be somewhat faster than what I have previously seen, and I was unable to access information with the full reasoning that made cokehabit leave. Somebody told me christel would send an email explaining it, but I couldn't find it.

I've asked for that email a couple of times too, this really needs to be done.
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ciaranm
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2006 5:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

amne wrote:
pilla wrote:
Besides, I'm still to understand the reason and the process behind cokehabit's expulsion. It seemed to be somewhat faster than what I have previously seen, and I was unable to access information with the full reasoning that made cokehabit leave. Somebody told me christel would send an email explaining it, but I couldn't find it.

I've asked for that email a couple of times too, this really needs to be done.

I'm not so sure that he'd want that information to be made public... Wouldn't it be nice to ask him first?
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2006 5:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ciaranm wrote:

I'm not so sure that he'd want that information to be made public... Wouldn't it be nice to ask him first?


Userrel may release it only to -core, if they think there is sensitive information about it. It's way better than doing things without proper explanation.

I remember the case of a given developer that had an open bug for more than 6 months before getting the boot. The process was much clearer IMO.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2006 5:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ciaranm wrote:
I'm not so sure that he'd want that information to be made public... Wouldn't it be nice to ask him first?


There is no official announcement of his retirement, this needs to be made public.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2006 5:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kojiro wrote:
I confess I don't understand why it is less beneficial to choose the substitute from the list of runner-up candidates.
It is less beneficial because the rest on the list never showed up at #gentoo-userreps or posted to userrel ML or wrote to us about any ideas they had, except for djay. If we can pick the ones that have been with us the last months and helped a lot, we don't have the extra work of showing someone new his way around.

pilla wrote:
Leaving for userreps to choose their peers doesn't look sane for me. Imagine a congress where congressmen would be elected, but after that could kick some of their peers in favour of somebody they know/like better.


Please do not compare us with politicians because we are not. We don't have any power to shape anything and we rely on the good will and positive workig climate with the dev community. So it isn't a conpiracy or something to take over the world. We try to do our job the best we can and I'm just telling you what I and others think would be the best for the project.
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loki99
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2006 5:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ciaranm wrote:
kojiro wrote:
loki99 wrote:
...I agree that picking the next one on the list would better adhere to the original idea, but of pragmatic reason I think letting us choose the substitutes within one term, is more benefical to the project.


I confess I don't understand why it is less beneficial to choose the substitute from the list of runner-up candidates.

The election didn't exactly produce a brilliant result, given what happened with the most popular candidate... Appointment by a combination of userrel and existing userreps is less likely to make such a mistake.

Well thank you for the nice compliment ciaranm. :)
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2006 5:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

loki99 wrote:
Well thank you for the nice compliment ciaranm. :)

Hey, I didn't say you all sucked.
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pilla
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2006 5:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

loki99 wrote:

Please do not compare us with politicians because we are not. We don't have any power to shape anything and we rely on the good will and positive workig climate with the dev community. So it isn't a conpiracy or something to take over the world. We try to do our job the best we can and I'm just telling you what I and others think would be the best for the project.


I didn't say that it was conspiracy, but that it looked like one. Caesar's wife doesn't only need to be respectable, she must look respectable too. I don't see the point in changing from an elective system to appointments in the middle of the thing. If you think that elections don't give good results, change it for the next term.
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loki99
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2006 5:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

amne wrote:

Are there any rules for how this should be handled yet?

Not yet it is the first time that it happened.
amne wrote:
I've asked for that email a couple of times too, this really needs to be done.

Userrel told us that they are writing an official announcment and it should have been in the last GWN, but obviously something went wrong. They also will post to the userrel ML.
ciaranm wrote:

I'm not so sure that he'd want that information to be made public... Wouldn't it be nice to ask him first?

An announcement about what happened doesn't necessarily include privat conversations and flames. But it is kind of you to be so compassionate to cokehabt. :wink:
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loki99
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2006 6:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pilla wrote:
I didn't say that it was conspiracy, but that it looked like one. Caesar's wife doesn't only need to be respectable, she must look respectable too. I don't see the point in changing from an elective system to appointments in the middle of the thing. If you think that elections don't give good results, change it for the next term.

I don't think that electing the userreps is a bad idea, I think it is needed so we have the support of the community, but I also think that letting an already set team choose its co worker is a good idea.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2006 6:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

loki99 wrote:
I don't think that electing the userreps is a bad idea

I don't think electing userreps as it is done currently selects people who are representative of or appropriate for the user base in general. The problem is not so much electing as the election...
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2006 6:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

amne wrote:
ciaranm wrote:
I'm not so sure that he'd want that information to be made public... Wouldn't it be nice to ask him first?


There is no official announcement of his retirement, this needs to be made public.


Christel was going to handle it but afaik she has been busy as of late. I said I'd write something this weekend and try and get everyone in userrel to read it first ;)

We did drop the ball here rather badly.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2006 6:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why not just leave the things as they are now?
What would be the difference if someone is made UR in one way or another to made your troop's numbers complete?
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2006 6:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

antarus wrote:
Christel was going to handle it but afaik she has been busy as of late. I said I'd write something this weekend and try and get everyone in userrel to read it first ;)

We did drop the ball here rather badly.


Good to know it's at least somewhere in progress, thanks. :D
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2006 6:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pilla wrote:
Leaving for userreps to choose their peers doesn't look sane for me. Imagine a congress where congressmen would be elected, but after that could kick some of their peers in favour of somebody they know/like better.

If you have to choose a new userrep, I'd go for the next one in the voting rank, or call a new election.

Besides, I'm still to understand the reason and the process behind cokehabit's expulsion. It seemed to be somewhat faster than what I have previously seen, and I was unable to access information with the full reasoning that made cokehabit leave. Somebody told me christel would send an email explaining it, but I couldn't find it.

+1

I don't really see why a new userrep should be chosen - just to match the initial number again?
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2006 6:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Earthwings wrote:
pilla wrote:
Leaving for userreps to choose their peers doesn't look sane for me. Imagine a congress where congressmen would be elected, but after that could kick some of their peers in favour of somebody they know/like better.

If you have to choose a new userrep, I'd go for the next one in the voting rank, or call a new election.

Besides, I'm still to understand the reason and the process behind cokehabit's expulsion. It seemed to be somewhat faster than what I have previously seen, and I was unable to access information with the full reasoning that made cokehabit leave. Somebody told me christel would send an email explaining it, but I couldn't find it.

+1

I don't really see why a new userrep should be chosen - just to match the initial number again?

Well, the thing is that if there is one less, I and the others will have to do more work. :roll:

So unless you drop by once in a while and do the work for us, I'd suggest to make us complete again.


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loki99
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2006 7:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ciaranm wrote:
loki99 wrote:
I don't think that electing the userreps is a bad idea

I don't think electing userreps as it is done currently selects people who are representative of or appropriate for the user base in general. The problem is not so much electing as the election...

You mean the way the election took place?

This will be changed the next time and we plan to give it quite a thought.
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