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Is this a sign for things to come? [XMMS Removal]
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Should XMMS be removed?
No
40%
 40%  [ 152 ]
Yes
55%
 55%  [ 209 ]
Not to vote.
4%
 4%  [ 17 ]
Total Votes : 378

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wizkid
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2006 8:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

All the replacement apps have lots of nice features, accept the one I want :(

I guess I'm going to end up going back to cron to fire off my wake up music. I liked xmms, but over the years I've seen some bugs in it. I hope whatever I decide to replace it with ends up with an alarm function in it. I've seen talk on some of the lists for amok ane audicity (sp?) of alarm clock functions. To bad, I liked xmms. It's been mostly stable over the years for me.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2006 10:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cron strikes me as the 'correct' way to do it, especially with Audacity's "daemonize" option, which lets it run even without an active WM. A UI seems kind of superfluous when it's purpose is to sit there and wait...
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2006 10:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

wizkid wrote:
All the replacement apps have lots of nice features, accept the one I want :(

I guess I'm going to end up going back to cron to fire off my wake up music. I liked xmms, but over the years I've seen some bugs in it. I hope whatever I decide to replace it with ends up with an alarm function in it. I've seen talk on some of the lists for amok ane audicity (sp?) of alarm clock functions. To bad, I liked xmms. It's been mostly stable over the years for me.


There is an alarm plugin for Audacious. Check the multimedia forum..
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 04, 2006 12:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, if there enough people that will want to see development on it, then they need to get off their backside and do something about it.

That being said, I uninstalled it off my lappy today. I had a tear in my eye. I remember starting it up and being so happy because it looked like the OLD winamp, before they expanded it. Winamp was great, and XMMS was great too.

I also uninstalled mplayer. It became unstable on my system, and I don't use it anymore. totem/xine does everything that xmms/mplayer used to do. I play music though mpd/ampache on my fileserver. Its so good its not funny.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 04, 2006 4:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hmmm, I recently switched to totem too. I just put audiociy on my box. Haven't looked at the plugins., Hey I haven't even started it yet. I don't know if it works! I'll do that this weekend. I'm gonna be spending time around my screen anyway. The dam# web vserver won't compile anymore. I botched the gcc upgrade somehow :( I can play with getting some sort of alarm working whilst watching emerge blab go by on the xterm.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2006 11:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I suppose everything that could be said about the matter has been said, so I'll skip to the bigger picture:

It's really just another case of the gentoo devs being curiously out of touch with users and potential users, making weird decisions, and just generally projecting this sense that the Gentoo organization has some serious rot happening at it's core. We can see it in a daily basis on IRC and on mailing lists. It shows up often in responses to user submitted bugs and on this forum. The discussion in this thread captures a lot of the attitude that's so flat out wrong.

It's really an affliction that I, as an outsider, see a lot among "computer-type people." It's a particular point of view that leads to much self-martyrdom and best intentioned disservice to their users.

*sigh*

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2006 12:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

volkris wrote:
It's really just another case of the gentoo devs being curiously out of touch with users and potential users, making weird decisions, and just generally projecting this sense that the Gentoo organization has some serious rot happening at it's core. We can see it in a daily basis on IRC and on mailing lists. It shows up often in responses to user submitted bugs and on this forum. The discussion in this thread captures a lot of the attitude that's so flat out wrong.


Nope, no, wrong, aaaaand, no.

Problem: XMMS is:
    * Old.
    * Has several outstanding issues.
    * Has no upstream (Meaning that it is not actively developed. XMMS developers have moved to XMMS2)
    * Has recently lost its ebuild maintainer, and no one wants to fill that position. (due to the first three problems)


So, its being dropped from Gentoo. This shows no serious rot, or is even a weird decision. Its a perfectly logical if unfortunate decision.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2006 1:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chaosite wrote:

Problem: XMMS is:


Remember that "bigger picture" phrase I used? Yeah.

Even your response is indicative of this unfortunate environment that has grown up around Gentoo of late.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2006 1:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

volkris wrote:
Remember that "bigger picture" phrase I used? Yeah.

Even your response is indicative of this unfortunate environment that has grown up around Gentoo of late.


I don't see anything wrong here. Please elaborate.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2006 2:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

xmms is great. dont remove it!
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2006 6:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is very sad, I recently 2-3 days ago found out that xmms is being dropped from portage, the arguments are all there but i still think its a shame, especially since i haven't seen any player which was as good as xmms, ( besides winamp, which even have the medialibary).

After haven read this thread, i decided to try this BMPx, I must admit I have never seen a worse player. now the question even is, how do I get rid off all that crap that i installed, I never used neither dbus or gstreamer before.

anyway, I have for some time wanted a new mediaplayer, as I really likes the medialibary feature.
now what i want is simple:
1) It would be nice if it was shadable like xmms/winamp
2) Must have something like "jump to file"
3) Must be able to handle > 6000 song in one playlist.
4) prefereable as lightweights as possible, I don't use GNOME or KDE and I don't have QT installed :)

now BMPx couldn't handle that many songs in the playlist and i wasn't shadable.
amarok is just to big

I don't care much about how the player looks.

So anyone any ideas, I don't wan't to install 'audacious', because i suspect that it have the same issues as BMPx, especialy with the playlist, correct me if im wrong, and if you know any good players, please let me know.

thx.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2006 8:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

defenderBG wrote:
xmms is great. dont remove it!


No it's not. Please read the whole thread!

Isn't it interesting - "all these people" who love xmms sooo much, and yet no one's announced they're going to try and maintain it and the already huge patch set it has...
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2006 8:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AllenJB wrote:
defenderBG wrote:
xmms is great. dont remove it!


No it's not. Please read the whole thread!

That's your opinion. defender's statement is his opinion. There's neither right nor wrong in the opinions on this issue. I think XMMS is fine; I've found it to be the least buggy and most responsive player out of everything similar to it. However, as we've seen, it's about an even split between those who say "it's fine, works for me" and those who say "not fine, doesn't work for me."
Quote:
Isn't it interesting - "all these people" who love xmms sooo much, and yet no one's announced they're going to try and maintain it and the already huge patch set it has...

Yet out of all the people who've replied, how many do you think 1) know how to code, 2) know how to code well, 3) know how to maintain software, 4) are enthusiastic about XMMS -- what's needed is someone who has all four of these attributes. Judging from the ridiculously long thread so far, people fall into at most one or two of these categories. Most, if not all, of the responses to this thread seem to be from the people who don't know how to code, but love XMMS. That's why there's been no maintenance announcement so far.

There's some discussion that the sound team will keep it in their overlay, and if it doesn't end up there, I'm sure it will find its way to one of the more prominent community overlays, like sunrise.gentoo.org. It'll still be there for people who just want to run it, even if they can't maintain it.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2006 12:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nice to see a 5-page long thread that stayed on topic.

Anyways, what I've seen with all this is people are complaining about issues that others don't have. Unmaintained and buggy: I never had it crash ONCE one me when I used it. Before I used it, I tried several media players, but they all have so many feautres, they are pointless.

I use mplayer for videos, used xmms for media (mpd is the cloest I've found for a replacement of XMMS, and right now I'm looking for a tolerable GUI for it that I can also set up to work with me media keys, which was an easy task with XMMS), I don't need a library (I use something called directories and filenames), and the host of other default options that come with so many media players is just a waste of code: If you can put in a library and all the other useless features into a small footprint, maybe making a media PLAYER instead of Windows XP Media Edition for Linux would make for a rather small, hopefully fast, media player.

XMMS, like has be said, is unique: It was small, fast, and it did one job and did that job well: Play music. If you wanted more functions, you put in a plugin. The GUI was consistent, simple, and worked. You didn't have to skin it to get this: This was the default.

OT:
Someone said it before: There seems to be this idea in the devs heads that Gentoo it rotting at its core, and they are scrammbling to fix it. They seem, in general, to have this "If you don't like it, fix it yourself" attitude, without the thought that some people may be too busy to work with the code, or do what is needed to maintain software. Just because they are not able to do this, the devs really shouldn't say "Well, if you cann't and no one else will, f*** you and yours". Its rather annoying and honestly very counterproductive. If people wanted to maintain their own installs for everything, they would use LFS, not Gentoo (I started using Gentoo because I didn't have the time to mess with LFS). If there are so many problems, hardmask it and be done with it. Put into package.mask that it is undeveloped and unmaintained (devs don't support hardmasked packages anyways), and let those who want a media player, have a media player. Same goes for other programs: Hardmask it, and let it sit there for awhile.

Again, as someone else said (I'm saying this alot because I don't feel like scrolling back to look up names), *nix programs like cp are very, very old, unmaintained, but still used. Why? Because no one has seen a need to replace them. XMMS is old, unmaintained, but still used. Why? Because alot of people havn't seen anything that comes close to it.

Alot of people here seem to be bitching about the same things: Unmaintained, buggy, and uses old deps. Ok, so what? It works. Has for years. Hardmask it (which seems a very good middle ground anyways for software people use, but is still buggy), and leave it to the user to mess with. Someone wants to take a shot later on down the road to maintain it, fine, let them: Removing it seems a very quick, dirty answer to a question no one has been asking.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2006 2:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dralnu wrote:
Removing it seems a very quick, dirty answer to a question no one has been asking.


Precisely. Devs seem to be saying that they can't constantly update it so they must drop it. However, people here aren't clammoring for updates; they're clammoring for the status quo.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with saying, "We're leaving it in portage for the user's convenience, but we don't have time to fix it if he runs into trouble. Use it if you can, but if you can't... well it is what it is." This move inconveniences in the process of addressing a non-issue.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2006 3:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Status Quo, I don't think so, but I don't think the users want to see everything ripped out from under them. Some programs don't have old versions in portage (limewire being a good example), in which keeping the old one would be a nice addition (I don't know the specific reasoning to removing the older limewire, but it isn't a massive problem currently).

Improve, but don't destory. If there is a problem with something THAT IS SUPPORTED (hardmask isn't supported if I remember right), then fix it. If it isn't, tell them NICELY that they need to submit a patch to fix the issue.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2006 4:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

volkris wrote:
Dralnu wrote:
Removing it seems a very quick, dirty answer to a question no one has been asking.


Precisely. Devs seem to be saying that they can't constantly update it so they must drop it. However, people here aren't clammoring for updates; they're clammoring for the status quo.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with saying, "We're leaving it in portage for the user's convenience, but we don't have time to fix it if he runs into trouble. Use it if you can, but if you can't... well it is what it is." This move inconveniences in the process of addressing a non-issue.

So how is this any different than just copying this into your overlay?

The xmms users still have the program they want, and the people that want "said" packages cleaned from portage are happy also.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2006 4:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Headrush wrote:
volkris wrote:
Dralnu wrote:
Removing it seems a very quick, dirty answer to a question no one has been asking.


Precisely. Devs seem to be saying that they can't constantly update it so they must drop it. However, people here aren't clammoring for updates; they're clammoring for the status quo.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with saying, "We're leaving it in portage for the user's convenience, but we don't have time to fix it if he runs into trouble. Use it if you can, but if you can't... well it is what it is." This move inconveniences in the process of addressing a non-issue.

So how is this any different than just copying this into your overlay?

The xmms users still have the program they want, and the people that want "said" packages cleaned from portage are happy also.
Or they could keep the packages hardmasked in portage, and those that don't want to mess with them, don't have to bother with them. Its no more work for the users hwo want them removed, but more work for those who want to keep the programs.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2006 5:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dralnu wrote:


OT:
Someone said it before: There seems to be this idea in the devs heads that Gentoo it rotting at its core, and they are scrammbling to fix it. They seem, in general, to have this "If you don't like it, fix it yourself" attitude, without the thought that some people may be too busy to work with the code, or do what is needed to maintain software. Just because they are not able to do this, the devs really shouldn't say "Well, if you cann't and no one else will, f*** you and yours". Its rather annoying and honestly very counterproductive. If people wanted to maintain their own installs for everything, they would use LFS, not Gentoo (I started using Gentoo because I didn't have the time to mess with LFS). If there are so many problems, hardmask it and be done with it. Put into package.mask that it is undeveloped and unmaintained (devs don't support hardmasked packages anyways), and let those who want a media player, have a media player. Same goes for other programs: Hardmask it, and let it sit there for awhile.


What is the alternative?

If you don't like something you can:
a) Fix it yourself
b) Pay someone to fix it
c) Beg for someone to fix it

If you don't have time for a) and you don't have money for b) and c) fails I guess that leaves you boned.
If you say "well leave it pmasked in the tree and no one will file bugs or complain about it being broken" then most people will mention that a pmask entry stops no one from installing said software and then complaining about it later. "Oh I forgot I unmasked it two weeks ago and then I filled a bug." and so forth. "Unmaintained" means in sunrise or some other community overlay. If it's in the tree and unmaintained it's generally a canidate for removal.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2006 5:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

antarus wrote:
What is the alternative?

If you don't like something you can:
a) Fix it yourself
b) Pay someone to fix it
c) Beg for someone to fix it

If you don't have time for a) and you don't have money for b) and c) fails I guess that leaves you boned.
If you say "well leave it pmasked in the tree and no one will file bugs or complain about it being broken" then most people will mention that a pmask entry stops no one from installing said software and then complaining about it later. "Oh I forgot I unmasked it two weeks ago and then I filled a bug." and so forth. "Unmaintained" means in sunrise or some other community overlay. If it's in the tree and unmaintained it's generally a canidate for removal.


Some programs need to be removed, when there is a truely viable replacement for it. XMMS doesn't have a good replacement: While there are other programs out there that can do a similar job, alot offer features people don't need and don't want to mess with. Media libraries are a good example. People seem so very fasinated with media libraries, to which alot of us just don't need, and so many players are so integrated feature-wise, you mess with the playlist any, and you've got to save settings for half a dozen other useless features.

MPD so far is the closest to a replacement to XMMS I've found. The rest have a long list of useless features I don't want (MPD also works whether you are CLI and GUI, which means I could remove mp3blaster), and even MPD doesn't have a client that comes close to XMMS as for usability.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2006 5:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dralnu wrote:
antarus wrote:
What is the alternative?

If you don't like something you can:
a) Fix it yourself
b) Pay someone to fix it
c) Beg for someone to fix it

If you don't have time for a) and you don't have money for b) and c) fails I guess that leaves you boned.
If you say "well leave it pmasked in the tree and no one will file bugs or complain about it being broken" then most people will mention that a pmask entry stops no one from installing said software and then complaining about it later. "Oh I forgot I unmasked it two weeks ago and then I filled a bug." and so forth. "Unmaintained" means in sunrise or some other community overlay. If it's in the tree and unmaintained it's generally a canidate for removal.


Some programs need to be removed, when there is a truely viable replacement for it. XMMS doesn't have a good replacement: While there are other programs out there that can do a similar job, alot offer features people don't need and don't want to mess with. Media libraries are a good example. People seem so very fasinated with media libraries, to which alot of us just don't need, and so many players are so integrated feature-wise, you mess with the playlist any, and you've got to save settings for half a dozen other useless features.

MPD so far is the closest to a replacement to XMMS I've found. The rest have a long list of useless features I don't want (MPD also works whether you are CLI and GUI, which means I could remove mp3blaster), and even MPD doesn't have a client that comes close to XMMS as for usability.

I think the horse is dead. Doesn't make sense to keep beating it. ;)
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2006 6:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cromozon wrote:
This is very sad, I recently 2-3 days ago found out that xmms is being dropped from portage, the arguments are all there but i still think its a shame, especially since i haven't seen any player which was as good as xmms, ( besides winamp, which even have the medialibary).

After haven read this thread, i decided to try this BMPx, I must admit I have never seen a worse player. now the question even is, how do I get rid off all that crap that i installed, I never used neither dbus or gstreamer before.

anyway, I have for some time wanted a new mediaplayer, as I really likes the medialibary feature.
now what i want is simple:
1) It would be nice if it was shadable like xmms/winamp
2) Must have something like "jump to file"
3) Must be able to handle > 6000 song in one playlist.
4) prefereable as lightweights as possible, I don't use GNOME or KDE and I don't have QT installed :)

now BMPx couldn't handle that many songs in the playlist and i wasn't shadable.
amarok is just to big

I don't care much about how the player looks.

So anyone any ideas, I don't wan't to install 'audacious', because i suspect that it have the same issues as BMPx, especialy with the playlist, correct me if im wrong, and if you know any good players, please let me know.

thx.


you are bitching audacious without even trying it. good going. 8O

Everyone that talks about winamp i hope they are talking about 5 years ago... cause it has become so so bad.
Foobar is the best player i ever used and the only true thing i miss from my daily windows apps.

xmms is dead hardly will ever be a new version, so keep the ebuilds and install it. Don't make a drama.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2006 6:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

yabbadabbadont wrote:
Dralnu wrote:
antarus wrote:
What is the alternative?

If you don't like something you can:
a) Fix it yourself
b) Pay someone to fix it
c) Beg for someone to fix it

If you don't have time for a) and you don't have money for b) and c) fails I guess that leaves you boned.
If you say "well leave it pmasked in the tree and no one will file bugs or complain about it being broken" then most people will mention that a pmask entry stops no one from installing said software and then complaining about it later. "Oh I forgot I unmasked it two weeks ago and then I filled a bug." and so forth. "Unmaintained" means in sunrise or some other community overlay. If it's in the tree and unmaintained it's generally a canidate for removal.


Some programs need to be removed, when there is a truely viable replacement for it. XMMS doesn't have a good replacement: While there are other programs out there that can do a similar job, alot offer features people don't need and don't want to mess with. Media libraries are a good example. People seem so very fasinated with media libraries, to which alot of us just don't need, and so many players are so integrated feature-wise, you mess with the playlist any, and you've got to save settings for half a dozen other useless features.

MPD so far is the closest to a replacement to XMMS I've found. The rest have a long list of useless features I don't want (MPD also works whether you are CLI and GUI, which means I could remove mp3blaster), and even MPD doesn't have a client that comes close to XMMS as for usability.

I think the horse is dead. Doesn't make sense to keep beating it. ;)
The point of this thread actually wasn't the removal of XMMS, but the reasoning for it. It has been planned to be removed with no prior warning to the people (and don't give me the crap about the dev mailing list. Not everyone subscribes to that, since not everyone needs to, nor wants to). It is, to some people, as intergal as cp, grep, or any of the other dozens of ancient programs there is used by *nix that we still use.

The reasoning seems shakey at best in as much as I care. They offer replacements that hardly come close to XMMS (if there was something that much better, most people probably would be using it by now and no one would have said a word about XMMS's removal).
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2006 6:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dralnu wrote:
The point of this thread actually wasn't the removal of XMMS, but the reasoning for it. It has been planned to be removed with no prior warning to the people (and don't give me the crap about the dev mailing list. Not everyone subscribes to that, since not everyone needs to, nor wants to). It is, to some people, as intergal as cp, grep, or any of the other dozens of ancient programs there is used by *nix that we still use.

The reasoning seems shakey at best in as much as I care. They offer replacements that hardly come close to XMMS (if there was something that much better, most people probably would be using it by now and no one would have said a word about XMMS's removal).

Hey, I'm the one who started this: https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-510130-highlight-.html

I just know when to quit beating a dead horse. :)
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2006 7:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

yabbadabbadont wrote:
Dralnu wrote:
The point of this thread actually wasn't the removal of XMMS, but the reasoning for it. It has been planned to be removed with no prior warning to the people (and don't give me the crap about the dev mailing list. Not everyone subscribes to that, since not everyone needs to, nor wants to). It is, to some people, as intergal as cp, grep, or any of the other dozens of ancient programs there is used by *nix that we still use.

The reasoning seems shakey at best in as much as I care. They offer replacements that hardly come close to XMMS (if there was something that much better, most people probably would be using it by now and no one would have said a word about XMMS's removal).

Hey, I'm the one who started this: https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-510130-highlight-.html

I just know when to quit beating a dead horse. :)
Its only dead when the fat lady sings!
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