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Butts McCokey
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2006 1:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

fuzzybyte wrote:
I want iceweasel because it's GPL(>>better) and firefox isn't.
please tell. How does the GPL make it better?
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 4:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

psyqil wrote:
Bobnoxous wrote:
"The problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so sure of themselves while wiser people are so full of doubt."
- Bertrand Russel (April 6th 1999)
Perhaps I'm a little off topic, but what's with the date? Russell died in 1970...


You're right. I found this quote on http://home.cogeco.ca/~blade2019/quote_history.html, and it struck me, but it seems that this page has a wrong date for his death, and has misspelled his name. Go figure. Thanks for catching this.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2006 2:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cokehabit wrote:
Bobnoxous wrote:
Quote:
i am not calling him anything, i'm just pointing out that you would have to be stupid to want it. It offers him a chance to retract his statement.
This is a technical forum.
no, this is a chat forum


Heh! Indeed.
Gentoo Forums Forum Index -->Gentoo Chat
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 16, 2006 7:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cokehabit wrote:
fuzzybyte wrote:
So when iceweasel is going to be added to portage? I want it.
only an idiot would want it.
I guess that makes me an idiot then. :twisted:
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Butts McCokey
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 17, 2006 6:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jerkface wrote:
cokehabit wrote:
fuzzybyte wrote:
So when iceweasel is going to be added to portage? I want it.
only an idiot would want it.
I guess that makes me an idiot then. :twisted:
i didn't say that, i'm sure you're not
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 18, 2006 9:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jerkface wrote:
cokehabit wrote:
fuzzybyte wrote:
So when iceweasel is going to be added to portage? I want it.
only an idiot would want it.
I guess that makes me an idiot then. :twisted:

I'm an idiot too, then.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 18, 2006 9:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cokehabit wrote:
fuzzybyte wrote:
I want iceweasel because it's GPL(>>better) and firefox isn't.
please tell. How does the GPL make it better?

I can only give you my personal reasons, not fuzzybyte's, but:
My only reason for not using Windows/Mac OS X is the licensing. I don't think any of the 3 is better/worse, they're all fine for their respective audiences. (Never understood why people try to convince each other which is technically better or more user friendly or whatever...)

So from my point of view, trying to get a GPL-conformant, free OS, it certainly is better to have an application that also fits the picture than one that might have legal issues.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 18, 2006 12:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

benny1967 wrote:
cokehabit wrote:
fuzzybyte wrote:
I want iceweasel because it's GPL(>>better) and firefox isn't.
please tell. How does the GPL make it better?
I can only give you my personal reasons, not fuzzybyte's, but:
My only reason for not using Windows/Mac OS X is the licensing. I don't think any of the 3 is better/worse, they're all fine for their respective audiences. (Never understood why people try to convince each other which is technically better or more user friendly or whatever...)

So from my point of view, trying to get a GPL-conformant, free OS, it certainly is better to have an application that also fits the picture than one that might have legal issues.
That's the thing, it is not better, more conformant, free-er or anything - it just conforms better with the GPL. The GPL is just another license, and not the best of them at that
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 23, 2006 11:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

benny1967 wrote:
Bottom line: Both are right, in a way, but I think MozCorp is abusing its position in a way. My sympathy certainly is with Debian, and I would love to see an ebuild that carries the Iceweasel Artwork, if only to make a statement on my private desktop (overlays, anyone :D ?)


And the bottomline for mozilla is that they do not want to have a lot of bugs in their bugzilla about a browser they gave up half a year ago and/or they do not support anymore and/or is patched up beyond all recognition. The patches maybe are meant well, but for mozilla will be like supporting two diffrent version. Three if you count things like 1.5-branch and 2.0 branch and not going directly from one to another. (Currently for mozilla-firefox only mozilla have like three branches: 1.5, 2.0 and upcoming 3.0 they are working on side by side. And then you have thunderbird, xulRunner, bugzilla and all support they need.)

And they DO NOT want people to ship binary Firefox-installations boundled with A LOT OF CRAP like SPYWARE, ROOTKITs, MALWARE and/or boundled with other things that is a huge problem in windows without the right to sue people they cannot control otherwise for giving them a bad reputation.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 7:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Xake wrote:
benny1967 wrote:
Bottom line: Both are right, in a way, but I think MozCorp is abusing its position in a way. My sympathy certainly is with Debian, and I would love to see an ebuild that carries the Iceweasel Artwork, if only to make a statement on my private desktop (overlays, anyone :D ?)


And the bottomline for mozilla is that they do not want to have a lot of bugs in their bugzilla about a browser they gave up half a year ago and/or they do not support anymore and/or is patched up beyond all recognition. The patches maybe are meant well, but for mozilla will be like supporting two diffrent version. Three if you count things like 1.5-branch and 2.0 branch and not going directly from one to another. (Currently for mozilla-firefox only mozilla have like three branches: 1.5, 2.0 and upcoming 3.0 they are working on side by side. And then you have thunderbird, xulRunner, bugzilla and all support they need.)

And they DO NOT want people to ship binary Firefox-installations boundled with A LOT OF CRAP like SPYWARE, ROOTKITs, MALWARE and/or boundled with other things that is a huge problem in windows without the right to sue people they cannot control otherwise for giving them a bad reputation.


Exactly. Debian, who promises to support all the software in its distros for years, needs to be able to patch at will. I believe they are still supporting the 1.0 branch. This is extremely important to their users who depend on a stable system because upgrading instead of fixing one package can break every other package that depends on it. Mozilla, for the reasons you stated, expects people to upgrade regularly to integrate fixes. Obviously both positions are completely logical and the only solution is for Debian and any other distribution whose users expect only security patches for stable software to rebrand Firefox.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 4:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

well at the end of the day the iceweasel way is the most absurd and childish way so no.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 8:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

EzInKy wrote:
Xake wrote:
benny1967 wrote:
Bottom line: Both are right, in a way, but I think MozCorp is abusing its position in a way. My sympathy certainly is with Debian, and I would love to see an ebuild that carries the Iceweasel Artwork, if only to make a statement on my private desktop (overlays, anyone :D ?)


And the bottomline for mozilla is that they do not want to have a lot of bugs in their bugzilla about a browser they gave up half a year ago and/or they do not support anymore and/or is patched up beyond all recognition. The patches maybe are meant well, but for mozilla will be like supporting two diffrent version. Three if you count things like 1.5-branch and 2.0 branch and not going directly from one to another. (Currently for mozilla-firefox only mozilla have like three branches: 1.5, 2.0 and upcoming 3.0 they are working on side by side. And then you have thunderbird, xulRunner, bugzilla and all support they need.)

And they DO NOT want people to ship binary Firefox-installations boundled with A LOT OF CRAP like SPYWARE, ROOTKITs, MALWARE and/or boundled with other things that is a huge problem in windows without the right to sue people they cannot control otherwise for giving them a bad reputation.


Exactly. Debian, who promises to support all the software in its distros for years, needs to be able to patch at will. I believe they are still supporting the 1.0 branch. This is extremely important to their users who depend on a stable system because upgrading instead of fixing one package can break every other package that depends on it. Mozilla, for the reasons you stated, expects people to upgrade regularly to integrate fixes. Obviously both positions are completely logical and the only solution is for Debian and any other distribution whose users expect only security patches for stable software to rebrand Firefox.


And that is a problem gentoo does not have when gentoo seems to want upgrades for securityfixes rather than patches. And going iceweasel I believe in the gentoo case would give more problems. look at gnome-packages... Currently the gnome herd have to patch the packages to work with firefox since upstream want us to go with xulrunner instead.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 8:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cokehabit wrote:
well at the end of the day the iceweasel way is the most absurd and childish way so no.


No, it is not. It is just another usecase. A bit like why someone prefers Windows compared to Linux. They just browse and email, they play games and they have their virus-program. They are happy with it becouse that is what they use their computer for. As with Ubuntu. Me myself have tried the Windows, Ubuntu and Gentoo and just becomes frustrated with windows and ubuntu becouse I have the feeling like I never got it to do what I want it to do.

For the way debian works they need firefox-1.0* since the other of their supported apps which uses gecko from firefox is just as old an can't be built with newer firefox. And if they leave it unpatched it becomes a security-issue. And mozilla does not let them distribute the patched versions since the patches is not by mozilla approved-patches and they do not approve the patches fast enough since they have newer things to worry about.

So in the end of the day everyone sucks and declares (flame)war for no apparent reason just becouse they think they understands something they do not. Like politicians. And thats why we got WAR people.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 9:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Xake wrote:
So in the end of the day everyone sucks and declares (flame)war for no apparent reason just becouse they think they understands something they do not. Like politicians. And thats why we got WAR people.

Good line - I may keep this one for further reference...however, I agree with cokehabit that Iceweasel is a silly countermeasure. That, and the logo looks awful. It looks like the Fox is drunk or drugged or something.

Color me stupid, but does this thread in any way relate to the Bon Echo bullshit that keep installing on my b0xen? I haven't been following this issue until I stumbled across it today...

EDIT - [don flameproof jacket] Personally I think Debian sucks...so let them go their own merry way[/remove flameproof jacket]

Cheers,
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 10:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wahman143 wrote:

Color me stupid, but does this thread in any way relate to the Bon Echo bullshit that keep installing on my b0xen? I haven't been following this issue until I stumbled across it today...


From what I read on various forums, possibly. Mozilla requires that to use their trademarked name and artwork firerfox has to be compiled in a manner that they approve. If you emerge mozilla-firefox-bin you get their official branding.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 10:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

EzInKy wrote:
wahman143 wrote:

Color me stupid, but does this thread in any way relate to the Bon Echo bullshit that keep installing on my b0xen? I haven't been following this issue until I stumbled across it today...


From what I read on various forums, possibly. Mozilla requires that to use their trademarked name and artwork firerfox has to be compiled in a manner that they approve. If you emerge mozilla-firefox-bin you get their official branding.


It's like that because if you use Mozilla Corp. branding, then you can't redistribute the binaries/(artwork?). If you are not going to redistribute the binaries, feel free to use the mozbranding USE flag to enable official branding..
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 11:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Phenax wrote:
It's like that because if you use Mozilla Corp. branding, then you can't redistribute the binaries/(artwork?). If you are not going to redistribute the binaries, feel free to use the mozbranding USE flag to enable official branding..


...and this is why gentoo do not need iceweasel.
Gentoo distribute the means to compile your own (custom) firefox (or use mozillas official -bin) and not any custom binaries.

Debian on the other hand has to compile their own version with the security-patches since Mozilla does not compile those old things themselves. And then get the approval to distribute the binaries/artwork as "Firefox". And then distribute the new binaries. And this is a rather long way to go for a little security fix, especially since Mozilla does not have any priority on old versions of firefox.
So Iceweasel is just their way to cut a middle hand Gentoo does not need in its current form.


Calling Debian childish for wanting to fast distribute security-fixes to their customers without the fear of being sued by Mozilla is like calling a mouse childish if it do not want to play with the cat.
The mouse is not evil, the cat is not evil. But the way nature works stills does not make them good playmates. And sometimes the mouse knows why.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 12:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Xake wrote:
cokehabit wrote:
well at the end of the day the iceweasel way is the most absurd and childish way so no.


No, it is not. It is just another usecase. A bit like why someone prefers Windows compared to Linux. They just browse and email, they play games and they have their virus-program. They are happy with it becouse that is what they use their computer for. As with Ubuntu. Me myself have tried the Windows, Ubuntu and Gentoo and just becomes frustrated with windows and ubuntu becouse I have the feeling like I never got it to do what I want it to do.

For the way debian works they need firefox-1.0* since the other of their supported apps which uses gecko from firefox is just as old an can't be built with newer firefox. And if they leave it unpatched it becomes a security-issue. And mozilla does not let them distribute the patched versions since the patches is not by mozilla approved-patches and they do not approve the patches fast enough since they have newer things to worry about.

So in the end of the day everyone sucks and declares (flame)war for no apparent reason just becouse they think they understands something they do not. Like politicians. And thats why we got WAR people.
no, at the end of the day it is debian being a 6 year old child and spitting it's dummy out because it cant get what it wants
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 12:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cokehabit wrote:
no, at the end of the day it is debian being a 6 year old child and spitting it's dummy out because it cant get what it wants


http://www.unitedmedia.com/comics/pearls/archive/images/pearls2006152711214.gif

Oh, and here you are all grown up and know whats best for all and everyone.
Hey, I know! Become a president! Or, no better up: become ruler of the world! Or, nono!!! Become ruler of All Mankind And Everything Else (TM)! And while you're at it, try out as God.
Yeah, I really mean it. If you now know all and everyones best, why do not go make it mandatory for us poor souls who Do Not Know Everything As Good As You(TM).

Debian exists for a reason. People use it for a reason (And, no I do not know why and can not understand why). People fork it for a reason (and no, I newer liked using Ubuntu myself, but I know people who just love it somehow).
Just like Windows exists for a reason and people use it for a reason.
And if you come and say "It is just becouse they have not seen the light" (not just for windows but for all of them) or something else like that then I am afraid you really are a bit childish yourself. But mostly just not mature enought to see the whole picture and where the diffrent details (in this case distributions and software) fits in. And that is just sad.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 1:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Xake wrote:
cokehabit wrote:
no, at the end of the day it is debian being a 6 year old child and spitting it's dummy out because it cant get what it wants
http://www.unitedmedia.com/comics/pearls/archive/images/pearls2006152711214.gif.
lol. It's as bad as "what you have to understand", i want to say "no i dont have to understand it!!!""

Xake wrote:
Oh, and here you are all grown up and know whats best for all and everyone.
Hey, I know! Become a president! Or, no better up: become ruler of the world! Or, nono!!! Become ruler of All Mankind And Everything Else (TM)! And while you're at it, try out as God.
Yeah, I really mean it. If you now know all and everyones best, why do not go make it mandatory for us poor souls who Do Not Know Everything As Good As You(TM).

Debian exists for a reason. People use it for a reason (And, no I do not know why and can not understand why). People fork it for a reason (and no, I newer liked using Ubuntu myself, but I know people who just love it somehow).
Just like Windows exists for a reason and people use it for a reason.
And if you come and say "It is just becouse they have not seen the light" (not just for windows but for all of them) or something else like that then I am afraid you really are a bit childish yourself. But mostly just not mature enought to see the whole picture and where the diffrent details (in this case distributions and software) fits in. And that is just sad.
no, what is sad is someone saying "it's free, very free, very very free but just not free enough" :roll:
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 3:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cokehabit wrote:
Xake wrote:
cokehabit wrote:
no, at the end of the day it is debian being a 6 year old child and spitting it's dummy out because it cant get what it wants
http://www.unitedmedia.com/comics/pearls/archive/images/pearls2006152711214.gif.
lol. It's as bad as "what you have to understand", i want to say "no i dont have to understand it!!!""

Xake wrote:
Oh, and here you are all grown up and know whats best for all and everyone.
Hey, I know! Become a president! Or, no better up: become ruler of the world! Or, nono!!! Become ruler of All Mankind And Everything Else (TM)! And while you're at it, try out as God.
Yeah, I really mean it. If you now know all and everyones best, why do not go make it mandatory for us poor souls who Do Not Know Everything As Good As You(TM).

Debian exists for a reason. People use it for a reason (And, no I do not know why and can not understand why). People fork it for a reason (and no, I newer liked using Ubuntu myself, but I know people who just love it somehow).
Just like Windows exists for a reason and people use it for a reason.
And if you come and say "It is just becouse they have not seen the light" (not just for windows but for all of them) or something else like that then I am afraid you really are a bit childish yourself. But mostly just not mature enought to see the whole picture and where the diffrent details (in this case distributions and software) fits in. And that is just sad.
no, what is sad is someone saying "it's free, very free, very very free but just not free enough" :roll:


You are wrong... big surprise.

It is not "free enough" for debian to keep it as firefox if mozilla doesn't allow them to call it firefox when they fix security bugs. Debian in this case isn't really forking it, they are just replacing the stuff that makes it not free with free stuff, logically enough.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 5:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Conan wrote:
Debian in this case isn't really forking it, they are just replacing the stuff that makes it not free with free stuff, logically enough.

Debian is acting against the wishes of the Mozilla "group" - that alone should make it wrong...free or not.

Conversely, if the Mozilla "group" considers Debian's practices against their wishes, then they should change the licensing to something more restrictive. Triple-licensing (if I read prior to this correctly) asks for trouble.

It's a double-edge sword, but it should be worked out as adults...not by crossing out the Firefox logo at an expo and posting your half-ass drugged pseudo-fox logo as some sort of protest.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 11:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

wahman143 wrote:
Conan wrote:
Debian in this case isn't really forking it, they are just replacing the stuff that makes it not free with free stuff, logically enough.

Debian is acting against the wishes of the Mozilla "group" - that alone should make it wrong...free or not.

Conversely, if the Mozilla "group" considers Debian's practices against their wishes, then they should change the licensing to something more restrictive. Triple-licensing (if I read prior to this correctly) asks for trouble.

It's a double-edge sword, but it should be worked out as adults...not by crossing out the Firefox logo at an expo and posting your half-ass drugged pseudo-fox logo as some sort of protest.


Some of the things the Debian-pople have done is provocative and childish, that is a view I can support. But calling debian childish for wanting to distribute a secure product to their customer is something I can't call childish.

I just have to really get something clear: I can do whatever I want with the firefox-sources, compile it as i like, print it and use it as toilet-paper if I like, but I can not distribute it as binaries or alike as something identifiabel as "Firefox" without the formal approval of Mozilla?
And What Debian did was just make it identifiable as Iceweasel instead of firefox just to not have to deal with Mozilla for every security-update (Bon Echo that is the default name for compiled sources of Fire Fox is somewhat anonymouse and as it is a Beta-name for firefox missleading if you are using it).
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 3:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Xake wrote:
wahman143 wrote:
Conan wrote:
Debian in this case isn't really forking it, they are just replacing the stuff that makes it not free with free stuff, logically enough.

Debian is acting against the wishes of the Mozilla "group" - that alone should make it wrong...free or not.

Conversely, if the Mozilla "group" considers Debian's practices against their wishes, then they should change the licensing to something more restrictive. Triple-licensing (if I read prior to this correctly) asks for trouble.

It's a double-edge sword, but it should be worked out as adults...not by crossing out the Firefox logo at an expo and posting your half-ass drugged pseudo-fox logo as some sort of protest.


Some of the things the Debian-pople have done is provocative and childish, that is a view I can support. But calling debian childish for wanting to distribute a secure product to their customer is something I can't call childish.

I just have to really get something clear: I can do whatever I want with the firefox-sources, compile it as i like, print it and use it as toilet-paper if I like, but I can not distribute it as binaries or alike as something identifiabel as "Firefox" without the formal approval of Mozilla?
And What Debian did was just make it identifiable as Iceweasel instead of firefox just to not have to deal with Mozilla for every security-update (Bon Echo that is the default name for compiled sources of Fire Fox is somewhat anonymouse and as it is a Beta-name for firefox missleading if you are using it).


Correct.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2007 8:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wahman143 wrote:
Debian is acting against the wishes of the Mozilla "group" - that alone should make it wrong...free or not.
This is the risk you take with open source -- the source is open, people can use it. Presumably this is the point of open source. But do you seriously expect everyone who uses the source to be someone you like? Should Mozilla make an "open to everyone except those jerks at debian" license?
Quote:
It's a double-edge sword, but it should be worked out as adults...not by crossing out the Firefox logo at an expo and posting your half-ass drugged pseudo-fox logo as some sort of protest.
As strange as it sounds, it is a real solution. They're not allowed to use the official branding while using custom patches, they want the firefox branding to be guaranteed to reflect mozilla. So they don't use the official branding, but a branding that points to Debian instead. The "protest" is stupid, yes, since nothing really had to change. The solution, is not.
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