Gentoo Forums
Gentoo Forums
Gentoo Forums
Quick Search: in
Ebuild Creator GUI ?
View unanswered posts
View posts from last 24 hours

Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next  
This topic is locked: you cannot edit posts or make replies.    Gentoo Forums Forum Index Gentoo Chat
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
ciaranm
Retired Dev
Retired Dev


Joined: 19 Jul 2003
Posts: 1719
Location: In Hiding

PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2006 5:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Q-collective wrote:
Yes, it's a very elitaristic attitude.

You say that like it's a bad thing.

The opposite of elitism is mediocrity. Would you like to use a mediocre distribution?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
VinzC
Advocate
Advocate


Joined: 17 Apr 2004
Posts: 4630
Location: Theux (Belgium)

PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2006 5:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

VinzC wrote:
So basically, you, devs, do not want to make a GUI for creating ebuilds because you are afraid that we, compiler dummies, spoil your reputation of developers...

spb wrote:
No, I was attempting to illustrate that ebuilds are far too complex to express in an even remotely usable GUI, and that if you're going to create the things then you really should know how they work.

Sorry but the reason "it is far too complex" is just no valid argument. Things have been done that were far too complex for the average mortal but yet were done. Claims about the level of complexity has two meanings to me:
  • either portage itself has become way too complex - hence do we really need that complexity?
  • either devs don't dare...

I seriously doubt on the latter but you don't argue enough on the former...
_________________
Gentoo addict: tomorrow I quit, I promise!... Just one more emerge...
GNU/Linux user #369763
“Wow! I feel root”
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Q-collective
Advocate
Advocate


Joined: 22 Mar 2004
Posts: 2056

PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2006 5:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ciaranm wrote:
Q-collective wrote:
Yes, it's a very elitaristic attitude.

You say that like it's a bad thing.

It is.
Quote:
The opposite of elitism is mediocrity.

No, the opposite is a democracy. And this is different, since a thriving democracy has several socalled tendencies, expressing different ideas and opinions. This is something we lack almost completely within the elitistic culture Gentoo has today.
Quote:
Would you like to use a mediocre distribution?

No.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
ciaranm
Retired Dev
Retired Dev


Joined: 19 Jul 2003
Posts: 1719
Location: In Hiding

PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2006 5:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

VinzC wrote:
Sorry but the reason "it is far too complex" is just no valid argument.

Sure it is. You can't factorise a fifty digit integer on a pocket calculator, because it is too complex.

Quote:
Things have been done that were far too complex for the average mortal but yet were done.

Using the correct tools, yes.

Quote:
either portage itself has become way too complex - hence do we really need that complexity?

Yes, we do. There is no other way that the desired functionality can be provided. There is no other way that we can support so many build systems. There is no other way we can provide a viable package manager.

Quote:
either devs don't dare...

The developers care about you so much that they don't want you getting screwed over by your own lack of understanding.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
ciaranm
Retired Dev
Retired Dev


Joined: 19 Jul 2003
Posts: 1719
Location: In Hiding

PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2006 5:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Q-collective wrote:
Quote:
The opposite of elitism is mediocrity.

No, the opposite is a democracy.

What?

Quote:
And this is different, since a thriving democracy has several socalled tendencies, expressing different ideas and opinions. This is something we lack almost completely within the elitistic culture Gentoo has today.

Uh, Gentoo is a democracy. Gentoo has lots of opinions. However, that does not mean that your opinion counts for anything, nor does it mean that opinions are more important than facts.

Fact: any GUI that can handle ebuilds sufficiently well is going to have all the functionality of a normal text editor.

The interesting question is therefore: should there be a set of extensions to an existing text editor that makes it easier to write ebuilds in that text editor? And funnily enough, such a thing already exists.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
VinzC
Advocate
Advocate


Joined: 17 Apr 2004
Posts: 4630
Location: Theux (Belgium)

PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2006 7:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ciaranm wrote:
The developers care about you so much that they don't want you getting screwed over by your own lack of understanding.

Don't worry about my own lack of understanding, I never screwed up any of my Gentoo installation in any ways for I found Gentoo so much well done that I always could find my way through any problem that I ever had. And I never went into such a disaster anyways. Thanks to you devs. (You see I can can be non-sarcastic sometimes.)

And - Ok, my own mistake - I tickled you first hence you replied about my own understanding.

Agreed, I don't understand - yet - the complexity of creating an ebuild. And agreed, discussing about a GUI for creating ebuilds might concern only developers like you. So, all fears apart, we are basically discussing about yourselves helping yourselves (with an eventual GUI) although you are in the best position to decide wether you need help or not, is that correct?

Anyways you didn't convince me (the non-dev) by saying only "this is way too complex". If the GUI only targets developers, I'm Ok with your sentence. If the GUI could just *help* young developers who would like to start with ebuilds, then I say no. I just can't accept someone telling me he can't do it because it's too difficult or too complex.

Complexity has to be understood and passed. This is why I wrote we would still use a hammer and a marble tablet otherwise. There are so many software that you would really qualify "too complex" but yet have been done.

I don't and won't share your argumentation. But since I won't feed the troll and go off-topic, I'll just stop here. I'm fine with what you said anyways since you're in the best place to determine wether developers like you need assistance (i.e. a GUI) or not.

But just don't think simplifying things will produce a dumb down. It's a negative and wrong attitude. You're not required to take aspirins when you start feeling the pain. But, man, believe me: it helps! :-) Meanwhile feel free to go the noble and hard way.

I guess you might fear this would lead to what happened with another non-free operating system; feel relieved, this won't. It won't because the Open Source community is made of people who hear, listen and care.

As a last point, I'd say I liked Gentoo so much that I would have liked to contribute as a developer - I've been a Windows developer for 10 years and over. If you want me to take the challenge of going through the whole Gentoo Developer Manual without simplifying a little bit that hard task, fair enough. *I* will take that challenge ;-).
_________________
Gentoo addict: tomorrow I quit, I promise!... Just one more emerge...
GNU/Linux user #369763
“Wow! I feel root”
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Gergan Penkov
Veteran
Veteran


Joined: 17 Jul 2004
Posts: 1464
Location: das kleinste Kuhdorf Deutschlands :)

PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2006 7:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good luck with this, only a note of precaution it is magnitute harder than writing the portage or any pkg-manager - the problem is that there is no general formalization on the process required to build and install a random pkg - so if you come up with a generalization algorithm, which downloads a tarball, recognizes the buildsystem, parses it to obtain the needed information for the ebuild and performs the needed operations to configure, compile and install - you are in business, but you'll have much more to do from there - general bugs in the build system, sandbox violations and so on, patches to apply.
_________________
"I knew when an angel whispered into my ear,
You gotta get him away, yeah
Hey little bitch!
Be glad you finally walked away or you may have not lived another day."
Godsmack
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Butts McCokey
Advocate
Advocate


Joined: 23 Apr 2004
Posts: 3313

PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2006 8:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

anyone got an idea why these threads always turn out to be ciaranm + cronies against everyone else :roll:
_________________
Since the bible and the church are obviously mistaken about where we came from, how can we trust them with where we're going?

"An eye for an eye will make us all blind" - Gandhi
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
ciaranm
Retired Dev
Retired Dev


Joined: 19 Jul 2003
Posts: 1719
Location: In Hiding

PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2006 8:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cokehabit wrote:
anyone got an idea why these threads always turn out to be ciaranm + cronies against everyone else :roll:

Because we're the only ones left who haven't given up on the forums as a complete loss, and still try valiantly to get you to see the error of your ways?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
djay
Apprentice
Apprentice


Joined: 18 Apr 2005
Posts: 188
Location: Israel

PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2006 8:32 pm    Post subject: More oil to a fire Reply with quote

Well, just to put some more oil to a fire, I wrote something too long to put in here, so here are my 5 cents.

just an opinion.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
VinzC
Advocate
Advocate


Joined: 17 Apr 2004
Posts: 4630
Location: Theux (Belgium)

PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2006 8:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gergan Penkov wrote:
Good luck with this, only a note of precaution it is magnitute harder than writing the portage or any pkg-manager - the problem is that there is no general formalization on the process required to build and install a random pkg - so if you come up with a generalization algorithm, which downloads a tarball, recognizes the buildsystem, parses it to obtain the needed information for the ebuild and performs the needed operations to configure, compile and install - you are in business, but you'll have much more to do from there - general bugs in the build system, sandbox violations and so on, patches to apply.

I don't want to smash down your enthusiasm but I never said I was going to create the GUI myself :lol: . Just that I liked the idea of becoming a contributor to the Gentoo community by developing for Gentoo :-) . And if becoming a Gentoo developer requires going through the whole dev manual without the help of any tool, I felt ready to take the challenge.

But it seems you are doubting I can succeed... After all, maybe I can do things that you might not even start to think of being able to finish... Don't spread that technical vocabulary to try intimidating me. I'm not impressed.

Dev's are human beings like anybody else. And if a normal being can become a developer then anybody can. Even a Windows developer like me. Never underestimate those whom you are relying on...
_________________
Gentoo addict: tomorrow I quit, I promise!... Just one more emerge...
GNU/Linux user #369763
“Wow! I feel root”
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Icer
Guru
Guru


Joined: 26 Aug 2003
Posts: 395
Location: @home

PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2006 8:53 pm    Post subject: Re: More oil to a fire Reply with quote

djay wrote:
Well, just to put some more oil to a fire, I wrote something too long to put in here, so here are my 5 cents.

just an opinion.

That's a very well thought out writing. :)

It's not going to fully automate ebuild writing but it would at least make it easier. I think that if we had this builder it wouldnt change so much things, except that there might be more ebuilds made for dev's to check out.

Could this be something for the sunrise project? At lest the 'future' ebuilds made with the possible 'builder' could go to sunrise project.
_________________
Everything can be done. There's just a longer delivery time for impossible projects.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Gergan Penkov
Veteran
Veteran


Joined: 17 Jul 2004
Posts: 1464
Location: das kleinste Kuhdorf Deutschlands :)

PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2006 8:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
But it seems you are doubting I can succeed... After all, maybe I can do things that you might not even start to think of being able to finish... Don't spread that technical vocabulary to try intimidating me. I'm not impressed.

Dev's are human beings like anybody else. And if a normal being can become a developer then anybody can. Even a Windows developer like me. Never underestimate those whom you are relying on...

No you haven't understood what I've wanted to say, I didn't want to scare you or try to intimidate you and I have said nothing about your ability to become a gentoo-developer, in fact just the opposite - I could only applaud new gentoo developers inclusions.
I simply stated that I think that rewriting the portage is easier than writing automatic ebuld-builder, be it with or without gui :)
And I'm thinking that the time spend thinking on this is better spend reading the gentoo documentation:)
_________________
"I knew when an angel whispered into my ear,
You gotta get him away, yeah
Hey little bitch!
Be glad you finally walked away or you may have not lived another day."
Godsmack
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
VinzC
Advocate
Advocate


Joined: 17 Apr 2004
Posts: 4630
Location: Theux (Belgium)

PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2006 9:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gergan Penkov wrote:
No you haven't understood what I've wanted to say, I didn't want to scare you or try to intimidate you and I have said nothing about your ability to become a gentoo-developer, in fact just the opposite - I could only applaud new gentoo developers inclusions.
I simply stated that I think that rewriting the portage is easier than writing automatic ebuld-builder, be it with or without gui :)
And I'm thinking that the time spend thinking on this is better spend reading the gentoo documentation:)

I prefer that interpretation ;) .
_________________
Gentoo addict: tomorrow I quit, I promise!... Just one more emerge...
GNU/Linux user #369763
“Wow! I feel root”
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Butts McCokey
Advocate
Advocate


Joined: 23 Apr 2004
Posts: 3313

PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2006 9:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ciaranm wrote:
cokehabit wrote:
anyone got an idea why these threads always turn out to be ciaranm + cronies against everyone else :roll:

Because we're the only ones left who haven't given up on the forums as a complete loss, and still try valiantly to get you to see the error of your ways?
well at least you admit to having cronies...

Anyway, you never give support or praise or even offer suggestions. Someone who hasn't given up on the forums would offer support to new and/or personal projects which could be useful for newer gentoo users. If anything you seem intent to keep Gentoo the way it is and with the userrel/urerreps projects we are trying to change things.

Get with the program
_________________
Since the bible and the church are obviously mistaken about where we came from, how can we trust them with where we're going?

"An eye for an eye will make us all blind" - Gandhi
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
ciaranm
Retired Dev
Retired Dev


Joined: 19 Jul 2003
Posts: 1719
Location: In Hiding

PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2006 9:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cokehabit wrote:
well at least you admit to having cronies...

Naah. I have people who agree with me because I'm right.

Quote:
Anyway, you never give support or praise or even offer suggestions.

That kind of thing goes to the -dev list, where it can receive serious discussion. Remember, telling someone why their idea won't work before they waste months coding it and months more trying to sort out the mess it makes is about the best thing you can do for someone.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
welp
Retired Dev
Retired Dev


Joined: 24 Sep 2005
Posts: 103
Location: Ipswich, UK

PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2006 9:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

8O I actually agree with something that ciaranm says... 8O
That's gotta be a first...

Cokehabit: I'm afraid I gotta side with ciaranm this time *hides*
_________________
Gentoo/BSD, Gentoo/Alt AT and Bugday lead
AMD64, Xfce, Sunrise, www-servers, net-irc, lang-misc, Artwork
If you find a bug, submit it! Bugzilla
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Butts McCokey
Advocate
Advocate


Joined: 23 Apr 2004
Posts: 3313

PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2006 9:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ciaranm wrote:
cokehabit wrote:
well at least you admit to having cronies...
Naah. I have people who agree with me because I'm right.
heh, thats a good joke

ciaranm wrote:
Quote:
Anyway, you never give support or praise or even offer suggestions.
That kind of thing goes to the -dev list, where it can receive serious discussion. Remember, telling someone why their idea won't work before they waste months coding it and months more trying to sort out the mess it makes is about the best thing you can do for someone.
dont just blast them down, offer help as to how they could do it so it would work. Also, it would be appreciated if you posted some things here as well as the dev list, we are going to be using in the end... :roll:
_________________
Since the bible and the church are obviously mistaken about where we came from, how can we trust them with where we're going?

"An eye for an eye will make us all blind" - Gandhi
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Butts McCokey
Advocate
Advocate


Joined: 23 Apr 2004
Posts: 3313

PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2006 9:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

welp wrote:
8O I actually agree with something that ciaranm says... 8O
That's gotta be a first...

Cokehabit: I'm afraid I gotta side with ciaranm this time *hides*
you'll learn one of these days 8)
_________________
Since the bible and the church are obviously mistaken about where we came from, how can we trust them with where we're going?

"An eye for an eye will make us all blind" - Gandhi
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
ciaranm
Retired Dev
Retired Dev


Joined: 19 Jul 2003
Posts: 1719
Location: In Hiding

PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2006 9:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cokehabit wrote:
dont just blast them down, offer help as to how they could do it so it would work. Also, it would be appreciated if you posted some things here as well as the dev list, we are going to be using in the end... :roll:

Tried that several times. I've never had any useful feedback from the forums on any technical proposal.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
StifflerStealth
l33t
l33t


Joined: 03 Jul 2002
Posts: 955

PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2006 9:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ciaranm wrote:
Fact: any GUI that can handle ebuilds sufficiently well is going to have all the functionality of a normal text editor.
Well, when people talked about the gui for ebuilds, I envisioned something with a built in help system. For example, a user of this gui is unsure about the depends, so they would click the question mark near the box for depends and it would explain all about them, thus helping this users make a wiser decision ... if it's the correct decision, well, that's why there's peer review. A text editor would not have that built in and would not know about the dependency help and would not offer any help about the dependencies. I use dependencies as an example because that is one of the more confusing features. Most users only know about DEPEND, but not the other variables. There are several advantages to having a system dedicated to ebuilds. It may not write the ebuild in the entirety, but could help out in cases where the user would need help.

But, I don't understand why some people are so uptight about this? If some people want to try, then they can try. It's a free system. If they want to try and they fail, then they learn by their own attempts. That is the greatest teacher of all -- Trial and Error. Let them try and see what they come up with. It may not be this big gui with the ability to correctly choose RDEPEND from PDEPEND, but it might do a lot of the writing and have a nice help system so that the user can make better choices.

I know you will argue that users should read the manuals that are in the gentoo servers, and you are right, they should. They are nice manuals. Some users just don't pay attention to it. They might be more inclined to fined an app that has built in help and babies them as they write an ebuild. Sometimes, some people like to be babied ... how they found themselves with Gentoo is beyond me. However, a system that has the ebuild terminology in it's dictionary can spellcheck, code completion, automatic generation of common code, guess what some code will need to be, automatically submit it to bugs.g.o, give help, and may even make helpful suggestions, thus making it easier for others to look over the ebuilds cause there might just be fewer errors in it would be nice. Like I said before, we don't know how this will turn out until someone writes it.

Off subject a bit: I do think the forums are a valuable resource to Gentoo and it's community, so I have not given up on them and I do believe in them. I just don't see why some people are really against people trying to make a gui, such that there is a little war here. I figured the attempt would be made and then people would either like it or hate it. I just think people should have the right to explore the idea of a gui if they want to. This is what Linux was founded on -- Freedom of choice. Thus they have the freedom to make a gui. Will a gui be complex and extremely difficult to handle ebuilds in a fully automatic way, oh yes it is. But, as all software it needs to evolve. Have a first build that understands the language of an ebuild for spell checking and maybe some help, then the next build, more automation ... and so on. It cannot be an instand glorified gui for all aspect of automation at first. All software is small at first. To try to design everything at once would be insane. So, I agree that the first few builds would not be any better off than an existing text editor with the ability to add words to a dictionary for spell check purposes. So, we are talking further down the line with wizards and nice features to really help someone out.

I said enough.

Cheers.
_________________
Nothing to read in this sig. Move along.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Gergan Penkov
Veteran
Veteran


Joined: 17 Jul 2004
Posts: 1464
Location: das kleinste Kuhdorf Deutschlands :)

PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2006 10:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well if the talk is about GUI which helps and does not write or generate ebuilds, there was abeni, which had many nice features, probably someone could pick up on its development and make it working again.
_________________
"I knew when an angel whispered into my ear,
You gotta get him away, yeah
Hey little bitch!
Be glad you finally walked away or you may have not lived another day."
Godsmack
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
omp
Retired Dev
Retired Dev


Joined: 10 Sep 2005
Posts: 1018
Location: Glendale, California

PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2006 2:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ciaranm wrote:
cokehabit wrote:
well at least you admit to having cronies...

Naah. I have people who agree with me because I'm right.

++
_________________
meow.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
slonocode
Apprentice
Apprentice


Joined: 03 Jun 2002
Posts: 273

PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2006 9:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ciaranm wrote:
Remember, telling someone why their idea won't work before they waste months coding it and months more trying to sort out the mess it makes is about the best thing you can do for someone.


Not really. And especially not in the manner that you tell them. Actually someone who went through the process you describe would probably gain intimate knowledge of the problem domain. Perhaps sufficient knowledge to come up with solutions that are beyond your capabilities.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Butts McCokey
Advocate
Advocate


Joined: 23 Apr 2004
Posts: 3313

PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2006 10:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

people said the same thing about porthole but i bet that is used quite a bit
_________________
Since the bible and the church are obviously mistaken about where we came from, how can we trust them with where we're going?

"An eye for an eye will make us all blind" - Gandhi
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
This topic is locked: you cannot edit posts or make replies.    Gentoo Forums Forum Index Gentoo Chat All times are GMT
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Page 3 of 4

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum