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should eudev be default set for virtual/udev?
yes, eudev as default
93%
 93%  [ 73 ]
no, udev as default
6%
 6%  [ 5 ]
Total Votes : 78

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krinn
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2016 4:53 am    Post subject: should eudev be default set for virtual/udev? Reply with quote

https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=573922

To not fall into another ffmpeg/libav fiasco, i'm opening this poll so community could tell our devs what we want instead of seeing them going into their usual childish battle done in their ml, just to see them closing the bug with whatever force choice they pick instead of asking us.
While i personally think it would be good that Gentoo use eudev as default to show other distributions that choose eudev already that we're also confident they made a good choice, it might not be what the majority of our community think.

I resume the poll to a yes/no in order to ease everyone life.

If you are a bit dumb, here's the typical poll choices you are not seeing in this one:
> i don't use udev or i don't use eudev...
-> if you think default should be eudev even you're not using it, vote yes
-> if you think default should be udev even you're not using it, vote no

> i don't care
-> normally you should just don't vote, but vote yes or no all you wish.

> what?
-> document yourself about what we are speaking about, or don't vote, or just vote yes or no.

I should had made many questions that would be considered yes or no to keep this poll safe from stupid ones, i think our community should have really few, making their random answer an acceptable error for me.
Poll will run 7 days.
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Naib
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2016 5:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is already a systemd install medium and thus that will use udev (until it is depreciated)
Those that make the decision to not install system then have the choice of udev or eudev... Due to last rites have already been called on udev it is a no brainer for me, but until then... Since users have already made a choice to not use systems (or to to use openrc I should say...) then there is already a reasonable precedence that they would want eudev over udev so... Why not if you are not using systemd. Ebuilds and profiles already have enough configurability to choose the logical default
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Last edited by Naib on Tue Feb 09, 2016 4:53 pm; edited 1 time in total
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The Doctor
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2016 6:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd say eudev is the more reasonable default.

If someone wants to install systemd then the point is moot anyway. If they want OpenRC then there is a good chance they don't want to get too tangled in Red Hat politics. Indeed, we have seen fair number of people switching to Gentoo because they don't want to be forced to use of Red Hat software. The third type of user doesn't care about those details and are irrelevant to this.

On a technical note, udev requires sysetmd be built and the udev binary extracted. This is a intelligent build process. Eudev does not share this. If the install is going to be on older hardware this could become an issue.

On a future proofing note, udev has been marked either for complete removal or at least removal of independent support by the upstream developers. It makes sense to switch the default choice to the project that has shown commitment to supporting the product in the long run.

Given these 3 points I would conclude that changing the default device manager is the reasonable course of action.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2016 12:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My ~amd64 installation has been using eudev since October 2014, and my amd64 installation has been using eudev since I installed Gentoo in April 2015. I have experienced no problems with eudev (other than due to the Noddy functional design of udev, which eudev mirrors, but that's a different issue). I vote to make eudev the default in virtual/udev.
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khayyam
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2016 1:40 pm    Post subject: Re: should eudev be default set for virtual/udev? Reply with quote

krinn wrote:
I resume the poll to a yes/no in order to ease everyone life.

krinn ... too many choices ;) Why wasn't there instructions for randomly shifting the mouse here and there and clicking wildly until one or other choice got itself selected? Yeah, I'm a bit dumb, but please, your job is to make my sojourn at the voting booth a little more like the real thing. What I really wanted was a televised debate complete with some comb-over millionaire promising to send device management to Siberia, yeah, that would be worth the time, and effort, I'm providing you. So, altogether a poor show, you could have at least provided us short youtube clips of developers punching each other in the face, at least then we'd have some idea of what it is we're voting for ... e...u...d...what?

best ... citizen khay
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Naib
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2016 1:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

that bug is getting interesting
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khayyam
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2016 2:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naib wrote:
that bug is getting interesting

Naib ... somewhere there has to be some PR company running classes in "how to argue ... the systemd way".

best ... khay
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Ant P.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2016 2:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Absolutely in support of eudev, if for no other reason than the mere suggestion of it becoming default offends that rent-a-coder moron WilliamH.

On a related note, when are we getting eOpenRC?
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saellaven
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2016 8:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

standalone udev is deprecated upstream, so we can't count on it to continue to be usable.

people that want systemd will get systemd's supported version of udev by default.

Even ignoring the dogfood argument, eudev IS supported and is standalone.

Thus, it makes sense that, if you aren't on a systemd profile, eudev should be the preferred default.

You'll note that the anti-eudev-as-default people are the usual pro-systemd people and their argument basically comes down to "systemd is our god and it should be worshiped by default... you can trust Lennart despite what he has said... really."
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2016 9:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

krinn,

Mostly, I have a static /dev with no device manager to hold my hand.
When I'm being lazy, its eudev, so I voted that way.

I think its unlikely that udev supporters will follow the result of this poll ... the writing on the wall says
graffiti wrote:
udev is dead, systemd is the new default.
If eudev becomes the default now, the end of udev won't give systemd that opportunity.

Still, I'm old and cynical and would love to be proved wrong this time.
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Fitzcarraldo
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2016 12:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

NeddySeagoon wrote:
If eudev becomes the default now, the end of udev won't give systemd that opportunity.

:? I don't see why the end of udev would offer any particular 'opportunity' to systemd, irrespective of whether or not eudev becomes the default now:

Patrick Lauer's suggestion for virtual/udev-217 in Bug 573922:
Code:
RDEPEND="
-       !systemd? ( || ( >=sys-fs/udev-217 >=sys-fs/eudev-2.1.1 ) )
+       !systemd? ( || ( >=sys-fs/eudev-2.1.1 >=sys-fs/udev-217 ) )
        systemd? ( >=sys-apps/systemd-217:0 )"


Were sys-fs/udev to cease to exist, either of the following two:
Code:
RDEPEND="
-       !systemd? ( || ( >=sys-fs/udev-217 >=sys-fs/eudev-2.1.1 ) )
+       !systemd? ( >=sys-fs/eudev-2.1.1 )
        systemd? ( >=sys-apps/systemd-217:0 )"

Code:
RDEPEND="
-       !systemd? ( || ( >=sys-fs/eudev-2.1.1 >=sys-fs/udev-217 ) )
+       !systemd? ( >=sys-fs/eudev-2.1.1 )
        systemd? ( >=sys-apps/systemd-217:0 )"

would have the same result:
Code:
RDEPEND="
       !systemd? ( >=sys-fs/eudev-2.1.1 )
        systemd? ( >=sys-apps/systemd-217:0 )"

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Yamakuzure
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2016 10:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually I am a bit confused about the fuss that's going on about this.


  • Upstream says: "udev without systemd is discouraged and will break sometime in the future."
  • Gentoo tries to follow upstream as close as possible. (Good thing, imho!)
  • If I install my system with USE="-systemd", the current virtual/udev want's to pull in a systemd part anyway.
  • Therefore Gentoo does *not* follow upstream here *and* ignores *my* choice. (Can be fixed, of course.)


Actually I think it is really simple:


  • Users with USE="-systemd" get eudev by default.
  • Users with USE="systemd" get udev by default.
  • However, although USE="-systemd" is set, those users can still decide to install systemd-udev first, using --oneshot, before virtual/udev can pull in a favourite.


=> Everybody is happy.
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khayyam
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2016 11:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yamakuzure wrote:
Actually I think it is really simple:
  • Users with USE="-systemd" get eudev by default.
  • Users with USE="systemd" get udev by default.
  • However, although USE="-systemd" is set, those users can still decide to install systemd-udev first, using --oneshot, before virtual/udev can pull in a favourite.

Yamakuzure ... "users with USE="systemd" have no need of sys-fs/udev, it comes as part of sys-apps/systemd. That's the point really, what you get by default if you're not using systemd, do you get systemd-udev or eudev. To me this is a no brainer, particularly given the various statements made by upstream, and the fact that eudev is a gentoo project (it hardly stands as an endorsement, or provides confidence as to its future, if gentoo doesn't have it as the default).

best ... khay
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2016 11:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yamakuzure wrote:
[*]Upstream says: "udev without systemd is discouraged and will break sometime in the future."
[*]Gentoo tries to follow upstream as close as possible. (Good thing, imho!)
[*]If I install my system with USE="-systemd", the current virtual/udev want's to pull in a systemd part anyway.
[*]Therefore Gentoo does *not* follow upstream here *and* ignores *my* choice. (Can be fixed, of course.)

Except that it still happens to work. USE=-systemd might ignore your political choice if you see udev as 'tainted' just because it happens to be shipped in the same tarball, but in fact, well, does not pull in systemd, so it's fine.

Since both udev and eudev seem to work flawlessly at this point, the change is merely a political topic.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2016 6:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I actually like rich0's idea on the -dev list.
Take udev out of the stage3 and update the handbook to make the user choose none/mdev/udev/eudev/systemd/whatever at install time.
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mv
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2016 7:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NeddySeagoon wrote:
Take udev out of the stage3

The problem with this are tools like sys-apps/usb_modeswitch: There are systems where users might not easily be able to get an internet connection without udev.
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khayyam
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2016 7:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mv wrote:
NeddySeagoon wrote:
Take udev out of the stage3

The problem with this are tools like sys-apps/usb_modeswitch: There are systems where users might not easily be able to get an internet connection without udev.

mv ... so how would they get sys-apps/usb_modeswitch? Obviously in the same way they would install sys-fs/udev, or sys-fs/eudev. If the boot medium provides network connectivity then the stage3 doesn't need to include virtual/dev-manager, or such things as sys-apps/usb_modeswitch, net-misc/dhcpcd, etc.

best ... khay
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mv
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2016 9:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

khayyam wrote:
mv ... so how would they get sys-apps/usb_modeswitch?

It's not part of stage3? If not, it would mean that some people cannot properly boot into stage3 and start using portage there: They still have to rely on a host (=live) boot medium and chroot to use stage3 to install usb_modeswitch and friends. Maybe this is the recommended procedure anyway. I haven't installed gentoo since years...
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2016 9:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i appreciate your efforts, but they hardly care for forum posts in my expierence for many many years.

Or any reasonable bug reports.

eudev works for myself.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2016 9:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mv,

How is it different to choosing and installing a kernel or a bootloader during the install?
Neither are in the stage3.

Something would need to be in the minimal *.ISO. Its a bit harsh expecting beginners to start with a static /dev and no auto anything.
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krinn
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2016 12:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think stage3 is relevant to this discussion. If you kick out dev manager from stage3, user will face default choice, either by emerging a package that need it, or just because even you tell him about mdev, none, systemd, udev... he will have to make a choice, and if he don't know the difference, your installation documentation will have to hint him about a default choice to pick.
a stage3 without dev manager will not remove the problem.
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khayyam
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2016 1:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mv wrote:
khayyam wrote:
mv ... so how would they get sys-apps/usb_modeswitch?

It's not part of stage3?

mv ... no, its not, why would you expect it would be? A stage3 doesn't come with all manor of things a user might possibly need to setup networking ... net-misc/dhcpcd, net-wireless/wpa_supplicant, net-dialup/ppp, net-dialup/rp-pppoe, net-misc/bridge-utils, or any other similar packages a user might need are installed by them as part of the install.

mv wrote:
If not, it would mean that some people cannot properly boot into stage3 and start using portage there: They still have to rely on a host (=live) boot medium and chroot to use stage3 to install usb_modeswitch and friends. Maybe this is the recommended procedure anyway. I haven't installed gentoo since years...

Who boots into a stage3? You can't. You first have to chroot and, at minimum, build a kernel. It's at this point you install whatever you need for your first boot, specifically those tools used to bring up the network.

best ... khay
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2016 1:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think krinn is right. All that removing udev from the stage3 does is move the argument to how the handbook is written. In all probability it would be the default in the virtual anyway as a dependency for something else. And it is a certainty we will get plenty of new and confused users on the forum wondering why their new install doesn't work like Ubuntu.

Personally, I think the handbook should be as simple as possible for the "default" install because the more new users who get confused the fewer new users Gentoo will get. Adding things like LVM, RAID, encryption, etc. would only serve to scare off new users and I think forcing a choice for udev falls under the same heading.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2016 6:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Exactly.

While the bigger choice of sysd or not pretty much results in the same thing. In fact isn't there a sysd installed img already so the choice is done at that point and thus the non sysd stage3 just needs eudev and not udev
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2016 9:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

khayyam wrote:
Yamakuzure wrote:
Actually I think it is really simple:
  • Users with USE="-systemd" get eudev by default.
  • Users with USE="systemd" get udev by default.
  • However, although USE="-systemd" is set, those users can still decide to install systemd-udev first, using --oneshot, before virtual/udev can pull in a favourite.

Yamakuzure ... "users with USE="systemd" have no need of sys-fs/udev, it comes as part of sys-apps/systemd. That's the point really, what you get by default if you're not using systemd, do you get systemd-udev or eudev. To me this is a no brainer, particularly given the various statements made by upstream, and the fact that eudev is a gentoo project (it hardly stands as an endorsement, or provides confidence as to its future, if gentoo doesn't have it as the default).

best ... khay
Ah, right! My wording wasn't sound here.

Better be:
[*]Users with USE="systemd" get udev through the systemd package by default.
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