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What do you think about these suggestions?
I love them and I would like to help developing!
20%
 20%  [ 7 ]
I like them.
44%
 44%  [ 15 ]
They aren't important.
0%
 0%  [ 0 ]
I don't like them.
14%
 14%  [ 5 ]
They are stupid. Stop giving useless suggestions.
20%
 20%  [ 7 ]
Total Votes : 34

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dr_strange
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2006 10:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

psisquare wrote:


I also miss a way of searching for non-installed packages containing a specific file. Say, I want to install a program not in portage and it complains about a file it can't find, I'd like a quick way for locating the corresponding ebuild (like Debian's auto-apt. btw, anyone want to guess what my last distro was? :wink: )


Hi,

check out http://www.rommel.stw.uni-erlangen.de/~fejf/pfs/.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2006 10:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

just a crazy idea, if gentoo could have a version or option that allows newbies to install and play just more or less like a binary distro (like ubuntu, I donno, maybe more binary packages for BIG softwares, or a binary only portage so we won't scare ppl off of big compilation, but sitll utilize the management framework of source-base gentoo?), so it's much more easier for gentoo to attract new users and create largers communities? :evil:


p.s. I know livecd can do the demo part, but if they update or installs packages, do we have the quick binarys to solve the prob in a more lighter way?which could put gentoo at a much lower level to start wiz.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2006 1:38 pm    Post subject: More automatized/professional QA Reply with quote

We should record the use of unstable (all?) packages and maybe even detect formal errors (ie. crashes etc.) automatically and report them. The reported data could then be analyzed using statistical methods and the results could give an indication of the stability of the package.

Why I am proposing that? Because I stumble over and over again on packages that are declared as stable but aren't stable at all (produce crashes when playing back sounds or such stupid stuff) while packages declared as unstable work flawlessly.

The point about statistical information analysis is that it _could_ be quite generic in the sense that one does not need to know too much about the system running the package: such "artefacts" are possibly "smeared out".


Last edited by Cinquero on Thu Aug 10, 2006 1:40 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2006 1:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

rodoke wrote:
How about the addition of /etc/portage/package.features? When a package reliably fails with certain features (e.g. distcc, ccache, collision-protect), it'd be nice to have the kind of control I have with package.use and package.keywords.


I second this. It would be convenient to only have "nodoc", "noinfo" or "noman" for only certain packages. And, certainly, to enable/disable "test" for certain packages, I would love that.

And as beandog mentioned, more Tips and Tricks in the GWN would be great. That's the best part of reading it, IMHO, and everytime I see a new one in my mailbox, I get a little excited to read them (wow, that sounds really lame), only to be let down, when they aren't in there.

Agree with uweklosa - emerge should definitely mention *all* the masked packages (with some option, --showallmasked, or something) that need to be pulled in to build something. Can't say how annoying it is to try to pull in some masked package, add it to portage.keywords just to have it require a few masked packages, requiring the emerge -p/add to portage.keywords cycle to be run through for quite a bit. Just the other day, I was trying to build the metapackage for gEDA (which was masked) and had to go through this cycle like 10-12 times! Argg, it was so frustrating.
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ColdWind
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2006 1:41 pm    Post subject: Paludis, tagging and stabilizing Reply with quote

@Dralnu: maybe the C-Portage discussion should end with the Paludis existence ;-)

As for tagging (make your own system and world-like groups of packages) it would be interesting and I guess It's easy to implement.

I have a new feature in mind (i'm implementing it in a Python script), first I have to try it myself to see if it's actually usefull in the practice but I'll explain it so people can give some pre-feedback. The feature is "stabilizing", if you have a stable system you'll probably end installing a good number of ~arch packages that you don't want to update in ~arch forever. The "stabilizing" feature would check if there's a stable version of the program equal or higher to the one you put on package.keywords, install it and then remove it from package.keywords.

I'll give an example:
Some months ago I installed X.org 7.0, I had a huge list of packages in p.keywords, but I want to stay with the stable ones as soon as they get stable. So I have to check which is the latest stable version and remove the package from p.keywords when it's finally stable. The stabilizer could do it automatically with a given list of packages.
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Root Moose
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2006 1:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dralnu wrote:
To stick with either man or info. Having both, sometimes one is out-dated and the other isn't, and it just makes things somewhat confusing!

To continue my previous comment, add in a man_page & info_page USE flags, so that anything you get will be one or the other (also would help reduce system size slightly. Would be handy for like, LiveCDs :))


As long as we can do a USE="MAN_ONLY" or USE="INFO_ONLY" I'm all for this. I detest info pages and will google before I use them. Needless to say that is cumbersome.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2006 1:57 pm    Post subject: Re: Paludis, tagging and stabilizing Reply with quote

ColdWind wrote:

I have a new feature in mind (i'm implementing it in a Python script), first I have to try it myself to see if it's actually usefull in the practice but I'll explain it so people can give some pre-feedback. The feature is "stabilizing", if you have a stable system you'll probably end installing a good number of ~arch packages that you don't want to update in ~arch forever. The "stabilizing" feature would check if there's a stable version of the program equal or higher to the one you put on package.keywords, install it and then remove it from package.keywords.


I think that's a great idea. I would definitely use that. I was thinking about that a little while ago, but got distracted by other things.

Something like that sounds really suited for gentoolkit or something.

EDIT: Just thought of a quick way to do this. Just add the exact version to your package.keywords. Example, add

Code:

=x11-libs/xorg-x11-7.1.blah


to /etc/portage/package.keywords, and then, when a newer one exists which is stable, it should automatically be updated (right?) on an emerge -u world.
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Root Moose
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2006 2:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

filterpunk wrote:
Improved handling of files in /etc - The existing tools do the job, but still leave too much to chance. I feel like i'm spending way too much time ensuring that things don't get clobbered. Sometimes it's small issues, like etc-update trying to clear out my defined /etc/hostname, other times it's more heavy-duty, such as several files pertaining to udev that are receiving multiple changes but don't necessarily explain what's being done or if any further work is required on my part. I haven't had any problems yet, but I always take a deep breath and wish for luck before I start merging things.


Just to add something to this thought... and maybe I need to research this further - but I don't remember seeing anything about this in any docs I have read...

Is there a way to tell portage to under no circumstances touch a config file? I don't mind a bunch of hidden, incremental config change files piling up in the directory but if say I (re)emerge sendmail I don't want /etc/mail/sendmail.mc ever to show up in the etc-update listing.

If this functionality doesn't exist maybe another /etc/portage/package.something file makes sense? package.cfgmask or something?

JAT
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SteveBallmersChair
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2006 2:08 pm    Post subject: Gentoo enhancements Reply with quote

Here's a couple of things that I would like to see:

1. Better distcc handling.
I have a fast desktop and a slow laptop running Gentoo. Needlessly to say, I have distcc up and running so that a small update does not take an hour on the laptop. Some packages do not like distcc for some reason and won't build using it. I'd like to see the ability of portage to automatically try to install the package NOT using distcc if the ebuild dies. Something like a "Retrying emerge WITHOUT using distcc in 5 seconds, press ESC to cancel..." would be great. Also, if a package is known to not like distcc, automatically disable the use of distcc in that ebuild without requiring the user to export FEATURES or comment distcc out in the make.conf. That could be overridden with the USE="force-distcc" flag or something similar if the user wants to have a shot at it anyway.

2. Reverse dependency checking upon installation of a package
Yeah, you guys have heard this one a lot and it'd be a pain, but it would surely be a help...

3. Outputting the "need to do" things at the end of the entire emerge.
The little notifications like "run perl-cleaner" or "run revdep-rebuild" that pop up in the middle of emerging/upgrading several packages would be best to gather and display them all at the end so that I do not have to scroll up through 8500 lines of GCC output and such to see them. That way I can better act on it.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2006 2:11 pm    Post subject: Re: Paludis, tagging and stabilizing Reply with quote

sageman wrote:

EDIT: Just thought of a quick way to do this. Just add the exact version to your package.keywords. Example, add

Code:

=x11-libs/xorg-x11-7.1.blah


to /etc/portage/package.keywords, and then, when a newer one exists which is stable, it should automatically be updated (right?) on an emerge -u world.


Fsck, I lost my point. I was thinking that it wouldn't work for this example:
mypkg: 0.1 0.2 ~0.3 ~0.4 ~0.5
I need >=0.4 and I upgrade to 0.5, then stabilize would downgrade to 0.4. But that's pretty silly and wouldn't be a problem if I always unkeyword the lower version...

But actually it'd still being useful for clean p.keywords and notice when packages go stable.
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Dralnu
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2006 2:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Root Moose wrote:
filterpunk wrote:
Improved handling of files in /etc - The existing tools do the job, but still leave too much to chance. I feel like i'm spending way too much time ensuring that things don't get clobbered. Sometimes it's small issues, like etc-update trying to clear out my defined /etc/hostname, other times it's more heavy-duty, such as several files pertaining to udev that are receiving multiple changes but don't necessarily explain what's being done or if any further work is required on my part. I haven't had any problems yet, but I always take a deep breath and wish for luck before I start merging things.


Just to add something to this thought... and maybe I need to research this further - but I don't remember seeing anything about this in any docs I have read...

Is there a way to tell portage to under no circumstances touch a config file? I don't mind a bunch of hidden, incremental config change files piling up in the directory but if say I (re)emerge sendmail I don't want /etc/mail/sendmail.mc ever to show up in the etc-update listing.

If this functionality doesn't exist maybe another /etc/portage/package.something file makes sense? package.cfgmask or something?

JAT


I think that is covered by CONFIG_PROTECT or something like that in /etc/make.conf.

I think I'm going to go through the post and making a list and add a poll to this to give an idea of how many people would want some feature. Late it may be, but it'll give an idea.

EDIT:
Too many options for a poll. Sorry folks
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Last edited by Dralnu on Thu Aug 10, 2006 3:06 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2006 2:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Root Moose wrote:

Just to add something to this thought... and maybe I need to research this further - but I don't remember seeing anything about this in any docs I have read...

Is there a way to tell portage to under no circumstances touch a config file? I don't mind a bunch of hidden, incremental config change files piling up in the directory but if say I (re)emerge sendmail I don't want /etc/mail/sendmail.mc ever to show up in the etc-update listing.

If this functionality doesn't exist maybe another /etc/portage/package.something file makes sense? package.cfgmask or something?

JAT


You could always make the file(s) in question readonly.

ColdWind wrote:

But actually it'd still being useful for clean p.keywords and notice when packages go stable.


Absolutely, I agree. But that makes the script a (tiny) bit less complex. Basically could parse the portage.keywords and compare to what's actually installed, removing it if a newer version is installed or something.


Last edited by sageman on Thu Aug 10, 2006 2:36 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2006 2:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Morris wrote:
What I would like to see are mainly two things:
1. I would like to be able to pull security updates only. Sometimes the update of a package breaks something or is blocked by something else or whatever. I am not an experienced Gentoo user so in these cases I usually I often have to search for documentation or this forum etc.. So far I found a solution most of the time but it takes time and sometimes I just have to continue to work. So I would like to pull only security updates in short intervals and take care of the rest every now and then when I have more time.


Yes, we have several dozen servers running Gentoo at our site. Our standard "modus operandi" is to do a glsa-check via cron every night and then we do the manual intervention thing if it makes sense to do so.

If there was a "emerge --security-update" that would simplify our lives.

Another thing... All these rev level releases are kinda annoying if they are not adding security. Is there a way to only do "whole number" emerges. What I mean is emerge always wants to do the "R" releases:

Code:
prajnanullido ~ # emerge -avt apache

[ebuild   R   ] net-www/apache-2.0.58-r2  USE="apache2 doc ldap ssl -debug -mpm-itk -mpm-leader -mpm-peruser -mpm-prefork -mpm-threadpool -mpm-worker -no-suexec -static-modules -threads" 0 kB


Can portage be told to do only 2.0.58, 2.0.59, 2.0.60 or whatever and ignore the incremental -r* stuff? If glsa-check does complain that -r2 needs to be replaced with r6 then I can always one-shot it.

Another minor annoyance is that if we stay the course with only applying glsa-check noted security updates we eventually will have a server that is not able to find old ebuilds at some point. Our workaround has been to do an emerge world every 3-4 months "just because" but every time we do it makes us "pucker" because we are not certain if anything will break. We've had really good luck but...

Am I being wrong headed about this?
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2006 2:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Root Moose wrote:
Dralnu wrote:
To stick with either man or info. Having both, sometimes one is out-dated and the other isn't, and it just makes things somewhat confusing!

To continue my previous comment, add in a man_page & info_page USE flags, so that anything you get will be one or the other (also would help reduce system size slightly. Would be handy for like, LiveCDs :))


As long as we can do a USE="MAN_ONLY" or USE="INFO_ONLY" I'm all for this. I detest info pages and will google before I use them. Needless to say that is cumbersome.


Put FEATURES="noinfo" in /etc/make.conf
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2006 2:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Root Moose wrote:
Is there a way to tell portage to under no circumstances touch a config file? I don't mind a bunch of hidden, incremental config change files piling up in the directory but if say I (re)emerge sendmail I don't want /etc/mail/sendmail.mc ever to show up in the etc-update listing.


You're looking for CONFIG_PROTECT and CONFIG_PROTECT_MASK.

http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/handbook/handbook-x86.xml?part=2&chap=5
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2006 2:51 pm    Post subject: Re: Gentoo enhancements Reply with quote

SteveBallmersChair wrote:
3. Outputting the "need to do" things at the end of the entire emerge.
The little notifications like "run perl-cleaner" or "run revdep-rebuild" that pop up in the middle of emerging/upgrading several packages would be best to gather and display them all at the end so that I do not have to scroll up through 8500 lines of GCC output and such to see them. That way I can better act on it.


See /etc/make.conf.example about PORTAGE_ELOG variables.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2006 2:56 pm    Post subject: Re: Gentoo enhancements Reply with quote

beandog wrote:

See /etc/make.conf.example about PORTAGE_ELOG variables.


There seems to be a theme developing. Maybe a useful portage tricks section for the next GWN?
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2006 3:13 pm    Post subject: Re: Gentoo enhancements Reply with quote

beandog wrote:
SteveBallmersChair wrote:
3. Outputting the "need to do" things at the end of the entire emerge.
The little notifications like "run perl-cleaner" or "run revdep-rebuild" that pop up in the middle of emerging/upgrading several packages would be best to gather and display them all at the end so that I do not have to scroll up through 8500 lines of GCC output and such to see them. That way I can better act on it.


See /etc/make.conf.example about PORTAGE_ELOG variables.


I was just looking over that myself, and I think what would be rather handy (the ELOG system is a bit complex for something so simple...) would be something similar to a make | grep * >> need_to_do, instead of trying to hunt down your logger, decide where you want it located, ect. Thats just my thoughts, anyways.

Besides, if you have a syslogger already, why cann't Portage detect it, and use it if it has to have a logger deamon going?
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2006 3:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi,

In my opinion the most important thing is: It shoud be possible to install gentoo withou having internet access. Therefore a gentoo mirror should contain ALL sources. There are many external references in the ebuilds (like xorg etc). For my cluster installation I had to write a script, which parses all ebuilds, extracts the URLs from them and downloads them manually. This was the only possibility to create a standalone mirror...

Best regards!
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2006 3:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ELOG was discussed in the June 19 GWN, and all these questions about CONFIG_PROTECT and the proper use of ACCEPT_KEYWORDS have been well documented.

Gentoo is probably the best documented linux distro in history, so it really astonishes me that people keep bringing up these topics. The docs are there -- read them!



The problems that really bother me are architectual problems with the whole portage system. Discussions keep arising about the best filesystem for portage as well as DB or C/C++ options or reverse-deps for portage. These all come back to a fundamentally broken model for the way portage understand dependencies.

I personally have tried to write a DB backend for portage, but I gave up after two weeks of coding the thing together, trying to figure out how to sort out USE flag logic. Lots of people have tried to do C or C++ versions of portage, the most recent of which is this intruiging "paludis" program.

What bothers me most is that these efforts keep happening from outside, either from non-developers like myself or ex-developers. Portage has evolved more slowly than its user base. I run portage on just 5 personal machines, 3 of which are laptops, and it can really be horrendous. I can't imagine how painful it must be for small companies who try to run Gentoo.

The result is a thousand little tools and web pages (eix, gentoo-portage, esearch, euse, equery, q, ...) which keep duplicating the same efforts but never solve the fundamental problem that searching and sorting dependencies and flags in the tree is just too hard and too slow.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2006 3:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dralnu wrote:
Actually, seeing Portage messure pings would be nice. Ping each GENTOO_MIRROR, find which is fastest, and use it. If they are tired, then just use the first one on the list, or just use it if there isn't a registering time (like 0.000 seconds?) to speed things up.


Theres a program that does this.

It used to be in the handbook, too, when I installed Gentoo at least...

EDIT: And its called mirrorselect. As in, app-portage/mirrorselect. Enjoy.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2006 3:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Root Moose wrote:
If there was a "emerge --security-update" that would simplify our lives.


Code:
emerge gentoolkit && glsa-check --list all
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2006 3:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

adsmith wrote:
ELOG was discussed in the June 19 GWN, and all these questions about CONFIG_PROTECT and the proper use of ACCEPT_KEYWORDS have been well documented.

Gentoo is probably the best documented linux distro in history, so it really astonishes me that people keep bringing up these topics. The docs are there -- read them!

I do apologise. Perhaps if you were to post a list of everything you know, the rest of us could avoid causing you further irritation by asking only questions that fall within your areas of ignorance.

As for the docs, I have read them. Sadly some of them I read three or four years ago. The problem, as remarked earlier in this thread is one of knowing when things change so much as to require a re-reading the documents. It's entirely possible for these things to sneak past sometimes. And much as I would love to devote my life to reading and re-reading the gentoo documentation, I fear that non operating-system related issues will continue to get in the way.

In the meantime, thank you for your paitience and understanding.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2006 3:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

boroshan wrote:
As for the docs, I have read them. Sadly some of them I read three or four years ago. The problem, as remarked earlier in this thread is one of knowing when things change so much as to require a re-reading the documents. It's entirely possible for these things to sneak past sometimes. And much as I would love to devote my life to reading and re-reading the gentoo documentation, I fear that non operating-system related issues will continue to get in the way.


I have to agree with you. While ideally I'd love to go back and get a "refresher" course on all the cool Gentoo stuff that I missed since I haven't read the docs in a while, what would really be helpful is kind of a page that listed Gentoo features along with portage tips for the intermediate user.

Maybe even a portage FAQ. Hmmm..... *ideas*
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2006 3:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

beandog wrote:

I have to agree with you. While ideally I'd love to go back and get a "refresher" course on all the cool Gentoo stuff that I missed since I haven't read the docs in a while, what would really be helpful is kind of a page that listed Gentoo features along with portage tips for the intermediate user.

Maybe even a portage FAQ. Hmmm..... *ideas*


I think this should be implemented on the wiki. Already it has a bunch of portage related tips and tricks.
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