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What do you think about these suggestions?
I love them and I would like to help developing!
20%
 20%  [ 7 ]
I like them.
44%
 44%  [ 15 ]
They aren't important.
0%
 0%  [ 0 ]
I don't like them.
14%
 14%  [ 5 ]
They are stupid. Stop giving useless suggestions.
20%
 20%  [ 7 ]
Total Votes : 34

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adsmith
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2006 4:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A portage FAQ?
A great idea!


Perhaps we could let everyone edit it to get a wide range of experience, and then put it somewhere convenient, like http://www.gentoo-wiki.com.

Alternatively, we could have some short explanations of common questions written by experts, categorized from Fundamentals and Installation all the way up to Administration and hacking bits of portage. We could label it as "Frequently Asked Questions"! https://forums.gentoo.org/viewforum-f-40.html

:lol:


(in case my tone isn't clear: I don't mean to be rude or condescending in the slightest. It is just funny how people keep re-suggesting the production of new resources that have been around forever.)
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2006 4:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, nevermind. *backpedals*

A lot of the information is already online here: http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/handbook/handbook-x86.xml?full=1#book_part3

What I would like to see is having some stuff in easier to read format. Once the Gentoo Knowledgebase project is up and running, that should help a lot, I'm sure.
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beandog
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2006 4:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

adsmith wrote:
A portage FAQ?
A great idea!


Perhaps we could let everyone edit it to get a wide range of experience, and then put it somewhere convenient, like http://www.gentoo-wiki.com.

Alternatively, we could have some short explanations of common questions written by experts, categorized from Fundamentals and Installation all the way up to Administration and hacking bits of portage. We could label it as "Frequently Asked Questions"! https://forums.gentoo.org/viewforum-f-40.html

:lol:


(in case my tone isn't clear: I don't mean to be rude or condescending in the slightest. It is just funny how people keep re-suggesting the production of new resources that have been around forever.)


I totally agree with you, but my beef is more along the method of delivery than anything else.

For one, the handbook is geared towards those who are (mostly) just installing Gentoo. The wiki, people have to search for stuff, and the Forum FAQs are just in their own little world.

Having one page on the gentoo.org website that covers some basic portage qs and as wouldn't be such a bad idea, I think. The advantage being that it's centralized, quick and easy to read, and can be a good bookmark reference.

Anyway, my concern is that a lot of suggestions that come up in this thread so far is stuff that is already implemented and people don't know about. If we can do a better job of educating our users, that's what I'm all about.
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Cinquero
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2006 4:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, I have always dreamed of a large, relational, simple database that connects just everything. If some executable or script is broken, just enter "give_all_references_to script/prog". It will then possibly list the package containing it. Entering "give_all_references_to package" would then result in a list of all bug reports, discussion threads, inofficial postings and ebuilds. No more chaotic googling. :-)
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adsmith
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2006 4:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Definitely. My previous jest aside, keeping documentation up-to-date through official channels is crucial.

The current flow is something like this
1. Suggestion on forums
2. forums hash it out for 20 pages
3. someone puts it on wiki
4. people use it and tweak it more
5. wiki is out of date, forums are unreadable

It should be
1. Suggestion on forums
2a. If it's a real features, immediately to bugzilla!
3a. publicized through GWN and put on official website.
2b. If it's a quick tip for non-portage software, immediately to Wiki
3b. pull more traffic to wiki so forums can answer questions instead of re-hashing the old suggestions.

The KEYWORDS and MASK discussions are good examples of 2a->3a failing.

The classic "Ext3 Filesystem Tips" thread is a good example of 2b->3b failing. People always keep bookmarking and referring back to that thread, but the corresponding wiki entry is pitiful.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2006 4:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dralnu wrote:
Genone wrote:
Lets see ...

...

[quote=Dralnu]Update the USE flag database! I've got USE flags popping up with emerge -upvDN world that I don't know WHAT they do.

What database? use*.desc should be up2date.


Actually, looked at it. It isn't "up2date" :)

euse seems to give a fairly complete listing, however, though I havn't looked it over well yet.[/quote]
In case you didn't know: euse just parses the info from use*.desc.
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Genone
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2006 4:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Morris wrote:
What I would like to see are mainly two things:
1. I would like to be able to pull security updates only. Sometimes the update of a package breaks something or is blocked by something else or whatever. I am not an experienced Gentoo user so in these cases I usually I often have to search for documentation or this forum etc.. So far I found a solution most of the time but it takes time and sometimes I just have to continue to work. So I would like to pull only security updates in short intervals and take care of the rest every now and then when I have more time.

Use glsa-check for that, the backend code of it will be integrated into portage whenever I get to implement package set support (heh, guess I'm saying that for two or three years now, maybe I should really get it done)
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2006 6:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

One thing that annoys me when emerging/updating my mixed x86/~x86 system is this:

When I try to 'emerge -uDpv world' atm, I get this:
Code:

Calculating world dependencies /
!!! All ebuilds that could satisfy ">=x11-drivers/xf86-video-vga-4.1.0" have been masked.
!!! One of the following masked packages is required to complete your request:
- x11-drivers/xf86-video-vga-4.1.0 (masked by: package.mask)
# Saleem Abdulrasool <compnerd@gentoo.org> (2 Jan 2005)
# Masking as this is breaking people badly.  Sorry seemant


For more information, see MASKED PACKAGES section in the emerge man page or
refer to the Gentoo Handbook.



!!! Problem resolving dependencies for app-mobilephone/gnome-phone-manager
!!! Depgraph creation failed.

Now, I know that package is masked, and I know _why_ I masked it, but I have no idea what package _really_ needs ">=x11-drivers/xf86-video-vga-4.1.0". If I would know, I could mask it, and my update would run fine.

Also, when I descide to emerge an unstable (or masked) package, I'm forced to go through the same steps every time:
1 try to emerge
2 find out if I need to unmask/~x86 some package
3 unmask/~x86 that package
4 return to 1
Portage should do this for me. I would love to be able to tell it to just continue when this happens (assume these dependencies are met), and remember the masked/unstable dependencies until all dependencies have been calculated. The dependencies could the be outputted in a list that is ready to put in package.mask/package.keywords.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2006 7:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Transaction support for portage. Automatic undo for failed merge ops.
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adsmith
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2006 7:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cinquero wrote:
Transaction support for portage. Automatic undo for failed merge ops.

I don't understand what you mean at all. With the sandbox, the actual system install doesn't happen unless the build worked correctly. So it either works, or nothing happened. The only result of a failed merge is a /var/tmp/portage filled with a few MB of crap. There shouldn't be any sort of jammed transaction state like one might get with a simple-minded DB program.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2006 8:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I also vote for reverse deps, especially for unmerge.
Example:
Emerge of foo - foo requires bar -> is solved automatically at installation = OK.
Unmerge of foo - bar is not needed by any other package and 'useless' installed
(sure, can be found with --depclean but an option like pacman's -Rns would be nice)

Umerge without leaving orphans files.
Example:
I've given net-dns/pdnsd a try. After playing around a while I've decided to remove this package with unmerge.
After unmerge of this package where still initscripts and config files from this package on my system.
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but what I've seen until now that symbolic links which were created from installation
are not deleted at uninstallation.

++ for Less complex init scripts and real parallel startup (like in Archlinux)
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2006 8:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fabiolla wrote:
++ for Less complex init scripts and real parallel startup (like in Archlinux)


initng perhaps? (has a package even!)
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Cinquero
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2006 8:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

adsmith wrote:
Cinquero wrote:
Transaction support for portage. Automatic undo for failed merge ops.

I don't understand what you mean at all. With the sandbox, the actual system install doesn't happen unless the build worked correctly. So it either works, or nothing happened. The only result of a failed merge is a /var/tmp/portage filled with a few MB of crap. There shouldn't be any sort of jammed transaction state like one might get with a simple-minded DB program.


I said "merge operation", ie. when the successful build gets merged with the real root filesystem. You can easily interrupt that without portage undoing the failed merge. Additionally, /var/db/pkg has invalid entries when there is a hard crash.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2006 10:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fabiolla wrote:
Umerge without leaving orphans files.
Example:
I've given net-dns/pdnsd a try. After playing around a while I've decided to remove this package with unmerge.
After unmerge of this package where still initscripts and config files from this package on my system.
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but what I've seen until now that symbolic links which were created from installation
are not deleted at uninstallation.
I second this. At the very least, have some sort of official "cruft"-finding tool in the main Portage tree so that we're not left trusting a third-party ebuild.
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Dralnu
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2006 10:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RealNitro wrote:
One thing that annoys me when emerging/updating my mixed x86/~x86 system is this:

When I try to 'emerge -uDpv world' atm, I get this:
Code:

Calculating world dependencies /
!!! All ebuilds that could satisfy ">=x11-drivers/xf86-video-vga-4.1.0" have been masked.
!!! One of the following masked packages is required to complete your request:
- x11-drivers/xf86-video-vga-4.1.0 (masked by: package.mask)
# Saleem Abdulrasool <compnerd@gentoo.org> (2 Jan 2005)
# Masking as this is breaking people badly.  Sorry seemant


For more information, see MASKED PACKAGES section in the emerge man page or
refer to the Gentoo Handbook.



!!! Problem resolving dependencies for app-mobilephone/gnome-phone-manager
!!! Depgraph creation failed.

Now, I know that package is masked, and I know _why_ I masked it, but I have no idea what package _really_ needs ">=x11-drivers/xf86-video-vga-4.1.0". If I would know, I could mask it, and my update would run fine.

Also, when I descide to emerge an unstable (or masked) package, I'm forced to go through the same steps every time:
1 try to emerge
2 find out if I need to unmask/~x86 some package
3 unmask/~x86 that package
4 return to 1
Portage should do this for me. I would love to be able to tell it to just continue when this happens (assume these dependencies are met), and remember the masked/unstable dependencies until all dependencies have been calculated. The dependencies could the be outputted in a list that is ready to put in package.mask/package.keywords.


something like emerge --add_unmask =x11-driver/foo.bar.3 would be nice. Have pretend go back and check for needed packages, and instead of complaining they are masked, show them as [ ] ~bar.foo.5. Then you could emerge --add_unmask =x11-driver/foo.bar.3 =x11-driver/bar.foo.5.
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Dralnu
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2006 10:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tazmanian wrote:
Fabiolla wrote:
Umerge without leaving orphans files.
Example:
I've given net-dns/pdnsd a try. After playing around a while I've decided to remove this package with unmerge.
After unmerge of this package where still initscripts and config files from this package on my system.
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but what I've seen until now that symbolic links which were created from installation
are not deleted at uninstallation.
I second this. At the very least, have some sort of official "cruft"-finding tool in the main Portage tree so that we're not left trusting a third-party ebuild.


+++

Easy removal of unneeded config files (possible tie into etc-update && dispatch-confg?) from the system.

We're all about smaller systems here! (Well, I dunno about everyone else, but I am :)
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2006 10:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dralnu wrote:
something like emerge --add_unmask =x11-driver/foo.bar.3 would be nice.


Code:
emerge flagedit
flagedit x11-dirver/foo.bar.3 -- ~x86


That wont work for hard masked files of course, but you should *really* know what you're doing if youre unmasking those anyway.
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Dralnu
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2006 10:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dusik wrote:
Fabiolla wrote:
++ for Less complex init scripts and real parallel startup (like in Archlinux)


initng perhaps? (has a package even!)


its masked/~x86 for one (alot of good programs are that way).

Plus that doesn't simplify the init scripts, does it?
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2006 10:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Also, with regard to documentation, it looks to me that the changes introduced with portage-2 are not fully documented. Take, for example,
Code:
$emerge -pv neon

These are the packages that would be merged, in order:

Calculating dependencies... done!
[ebuild     U ] net-misc/neon-0.26.1 [0.25.3] USE="nls% ssl zlib -expat -gnutls% -socks5% -static%" 0 kB

Total size of downloads: 0 kB
Exactly what does it mean when a use flag is marked with a '%'?
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Dralnu
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2006 10:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

beandog wrote:
Dralnu wrote:
something like emerge --add_unmask =x11-driver/foo.bar.3 would be nice.


Code:
emerge flagedit
flagedit x11-dirver/foo.bar.3 -- ~x86


That wont work for hard masked files of course, but you should *really* know what you're doing if youre unmasking those anyway.


Another case of a poorly documented (at least poorly publicised) program. I'll look into it, although I actually prefer hand-editing config files just because thats what I'm used to.
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Dralnu
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2006 10:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tazmanian wrote:
Also, with regard to documentation, it looks to me that the changes introduced with portage-2 are not fully documented. Take, for example,
Code:
$emerge -pv neon

These are the packages that would be merged, in order:

Calculating dependencies... done!
[ebuild     U ] net-misc/neon-0.26.1 [0.25.3] USE="nls% ssl zlib -expat -gnutls% -socks5% -static%" 0 kB

Total size of downloads: 0 kB
Exactly what does it mean when a use flag is marked with a '%'?


when I checked it, it didn't pop up with me (the % sign, I mean). Changed USE flags? Depreciated? Good question...
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2006 10:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dralnu wrote:
beandog wrote:
Dralnu wrote:
something like emerge --add_unmask =x11-driver/foo.bar.3 would be nice.


Code:
emerge flagedit
flagedit x11-dirver/foo.bar.3 -- ~x86


That wont work for hard masked files of course, but you should *really* know what you're doing if youre unmasking those anyway.


Another case of a poorly documented (at least poorly publicised) program. I'll look into it, although I actually prefer hand-editing config files just because thats what I'm used to.


Im gonna have to disagree with you on that one.

At some point users are going to have to venture out on their own and start searching.

Just by browsing the app-portage/ category (the first place to look for external portage tools) you could have seen it:

http://packages.gentoo.org/packages/?category=app-portage
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2006 10:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dralnu wrote:
Tazmanian wrote:
Also, with regard to documentation, it looks to me that the changes introduced with portage-2 are not fully documented. Take, for example,
Code:
$emerge -pv neon

These are the packages that would be merged, in order:

Calculating dependencies... done!
[ebuild     U ] net-misc/neon-0.26.1 [0.25.3] USE="nls% ssl zlib -expat -gnutls% -socks5% -static%" 0 kB

Total size of downloads: 0 kB
Exactly what does it mean when a use flag is marked with a '%'?


when I checked it, it didn't pop up with me (the % sign, I mean). Changed USE flags? Depreciated? Good question...


Code:
# man emerge
/%


Quote:
[ebuild U ] sys-devel/distcc-2.16 [2.13-r1] USE="ipv6* -gtk -qt%"
Here we see that the make.conf variable USE affects how this
package is built. In this example, ipv6 optional support is
enabled and both gtk and qt support are disabled. The asterisk
following ipv6 indicates that ipv6 support was disabled the last
time this packages was installed. The percent sign following qt
indicates that the qt option has been added to the package since
it was last installed.
*Note: Flags that haven't changed since the last install are
only displayed when you use the --pretend and --verbose options.
Using the --quiet option will prevent all information from being
displayed.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 11, 2006 2:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dralnu wrote:
Tazmanian wrote:
Also, with regard to documentation, it looks to me that the changes introduced with portage-2 are not fully documented. Take, for example,
Code:
$emerge -pv neon

These are the packages that would be merged, in order:

Calculating dependencies... done!
[ebuild     U ] net-misc/neon-0.26.1 [0.25.3] USE="nls% ssl zlib -expat -gnutls% -socks5% -static%" 0 kB

Total size of downloads: 0 kB
Exactly what does it mean when a use flag is marked with a '%'?


when I checked it, it didn't pop up with me (the % sign, I mean). Changed USE flags? Depreciated? Good question...


Guys... man emerge...

Code:
[ebuild U ] sys-devel/distcc-2.16 [2.13-r1] USE="ipv6* -gtk -qt%"

The percent sign following qt indicates that the qt option has been added to the
package since it was last installed


So, % means new use flag for that package.

EDIT: Oh, sorry, beandog already answered it better than I. Missed it :roll: But maybe it doesn't hurt to reiterate the importance of reading the manuals ;)
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 11, 2006 3:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dusik wrote:
Guys... man emerge...
FYI, I'm pretty sure this was not in the man page when portage-2.1 first came out. The '%' seemed harmless enough that I didn't bother following up on it in later releases.

Edit: of course, by portage-2, I meant portage-2.1.
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