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Z12
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 17, 2014 5:19 pm    Post subject: GNU/Linux vs Linux Reply with quote

Well, there seems to be alot of systemd vs openRC debate going on.. no reason not to bring this old debate back to life. :D
I've searched a little but found only one topic related to this matter which happened in 2002

FSF has been pushing people to use the term "GNU/Linux" instead of "Linux" when referring to OS for 20 years now..
There are a number of reasons to call the OS as "GNU/Linux" rather than simply "Linux". Richard Stallman explains this fully and in detail in GNU/Linux faq located here: https://www.gnu.org/gnu/gnu-linux-faq.html This is a good read if you haven't read it already, even if you don't agree with him.
If you feel lazy, here is a summery:
- Using "GNU/Linux" gives GNU the credits it deserves. Free software would probably not be a thing if it wasn't for GNU project, Linus Torvalds may have written his kernel even without GNU, but he probably wouldn't make it free and a bare kernel wouldn't get him anywhere anyway. Besides, it really is sad that the kernel developer is stealing all the glory from GNU, for something he didn't make. I already met people who think the free operating system was made by Linus Torvalds and don't even know who RMS is and this is just wrong.

- Calling the os as "Linux" makes it ambiguous when simply saying "Linux" because people have no way of determining if you are talking about the Kernel or the whole Operating system. This will require people to call it "Linux Kernel" or "Linux OS" to specify what they are talking about. Some distributions even rename the kernel to "kernel" or "gentoo-sources" (instead of simply "linux-gentoo", right?) in their repositories to avoid confusion. This can be easily fixed by teaching people to call the OS "GNU/Linux" and call the kernel "Linux". Just like how debian does it.

Bonus argument: When Poettering forks linux and creates "systemd-kerneld" (lowercase) (Also, quote this post when this happens) he and redhat will likely push "GNU/systemd" or maybe "systemd OS" terms to distinguish themselves with current GNU/Linux systems. So it wouldn't be a bad idea to be familiar with these terms to avoid confusion later.


Though, I know Gentoo calls itself as "Gentoo Linux", And i guess not many would be fond of "Gentoo GNU/Linux". but discuss anyway.

TL;DR:

Reasons to call the OS as "GNU/Linux":

1. Gives credits to GNU project where it's due. While retaining the credits to Linus Torvalds for creating the kernel but not giving him extra credit for what he did not make. I probably be very sad right now if i was in RMS shoes.. :(

2. Avoids confusion when talking about the kernel instead of the whole OS. makes "the kernel" postfix after "Linux" unnecessary.

Reasons to call the OS as "Linux OS":

1. "But I've always been calling it like that.."
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tw04l124
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 17, 2014 6:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SErious the net is full with such a thing and discussions.

I doubt that you did not found anything related.

Also systemd / openrc / waht3ever init, there are other init too ... it is not only about systemd and openrc in the first place.

afaik it is gnu linux because, userspace form gnu and linux is the kernel and therfore gnu linux.
on the other hand peeps are lazy and call it linux,

Your search engine gives you for sure 1.xxx.xxxx.xxx.xxx.xxx posts about this topic so go ahead
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Z12
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 17, 2014 6:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tw04l124 wrote:
SErious the net is full with such a thing and discussions.

I doubt that you did not found anything related.

Also systemd / openrc / waht3ever init, there are other init too ... it is not only about systemd and openrc in the first place.

afaik it is gnu linux because, userspace form gnu and linux is the kernel and therfore gnu linux.
on the other hand peeps are lazy and call it linux,

Your search engine gives you for sure 1.xxx.xxxx.xxx.xxx.xxx posts about this topic so go ahead

Actually i was talking about gentoo forums. Relevant to "Gentoo Linux" vs "Gentoo GNU/Linux"
Ofcourse there are discussions about this else where everyday.
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The Doctor
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 17, 2014 6:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Code:
alias linux='GNU/Linux'
Does that work?
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 17, 2014 7:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The fact that most systems are derivatives from GNU OS means nothing. The GNU OS seems dead for a long time.
If you want to have e.g. Gentoo named as "Gentoo GNU/Linux" what about others?
Ubuntu Debian/Linux
Fedora RedHat/Linux
Kubuntu Ubuntu/Debian/Linux

Yes, RMS likes "GNU" appended to every system name, but would he like being named as Richard Matthew Neanderthal/Stallman?
Whats wrong to add "Neanderthal" to name? We are all descended from him.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 17, 2014 9:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I call the collective OS "Linux" out of respect for the authors of all the non-GNU-Project software I use daily. They don't deserve that extra attention, they get in everyone's face enough as it is.

Their meagre contribution to my Linux boxes is replaceable (thankfully) and often inferior to the alternatives. GNU Compiler Collection, GNU libc, GNU Network Object Model Environment, GNU Image Manipulation Program Toolkit - all good examples of cruft-ridden, bloated, inferior-by-design GNU software that we'd be better off leaving in the past. And they all have silly names.
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 18, 2014 3:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Linus Torvald say in Revolution OS that GNU/Linux have a sense if you want to create a GNU distribution with of course, a Linux kernel. The FSF propose gNewSense and some others in their site. Linus say too in this movie that naming Linux GNU/Linux just by principle is 'ridiculus'.

The GNU identification give more precision and merit to the GNU develppers and the free software philosophy, but in philosophy, being desinsterested is part of helping you community.

So, GNU/Linux is correct, but must not be mandatory in my opinion. They are two complementary and two separate projects at the same time.
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 18, 2014 9:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BTW, GNU Hurd (GNU's own kernel) is still under development and reached version 0.5 last year. It's not dead yet, but really a slow burn project rarely anyone uses. For sure it must be interesting to watch when you take an interest in computer sciences and want to see things evolve.
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 18, 2014 10:22 am    Post subject: Re: GNU/Linux vs Linux Reply with quote

Z12 wrote:

1. Gives credits to GNU project where it's due.

You're assuming that we agree about what credits are due. We don't.

Quote:

2. Avoids confusion when talking about the kernel instead of the whole OS. makes "the kernel" postfix after "Linux" unnecessary.

So, use a prefix to get rid of a postfix? How convenient… :roll:
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 24, 2014 12:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GNU was part of free software movement. GNU had a bunch of tools built for Unix based systems like X11 or GCC. GNU attempted to create hurd a POSIX like kernel for a whole operating system. Hurd sucked Linus created a Linux. Everyone loved Linux and ported GNU tools to work with it. Linux gave the ability for a whole operating system. Watch the Revolution OS movie, free on Youtube. Also try finding a local LUG (linux user group) to go to. Gentoo is more of a 1337 Linux you are not going to get a good answer from most people here about basic stuff.

TL;DR
Watch Revolution OS
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 24, 2014 1:47 pm    Post subject: Re: GNU/Linux vs Linux Reply with quote

Z12 wrote:
Well, there seems to be alot of systemd vs openRC debate going on.. no reason not to bring this old debate back to life. :D
I've searched a little but found only one topic related to this matter which happened in 2002

FSF has been pushing people to use the term "GNU/Linux" instead of "Linux" when referring to OS for 20 years now..
There are a number of reasons to call the OS as "GNU/Linux" rather than simply "Linux". Richard Stallman explains this fully and in detail in GNU/Linux faq located here: https://www.gnu.org/gnu/gnu-linux-faq.html This is a good read if you haven't read it already, even if you don't agree with him.
If you feel lazy, here is a summery:
- Using "GNU/Linux" gives GNU the credits it deserves. Free software would probably not be a thing if it wasn't for GNU project, Linus Torvalds may have written his kernel even without GNU, but he probably wouldn't make it free and a bare kernel wouldn't get him anywhere anyway. Besides, it really is sad that the kernel developer is stealing all the glory from GNU, for something he didn't make. I already met people who think the free operating system was made by Linus Torvalds and don't even know who RMS is and this is just wrong.

- Calling the os as "Linux" makes it ambiguous when simply saying "Linux" because people have no way of determining if you are talking about the Kernel or the whole Operating system. This will require people to call it "Linux Kernel" or "Linux OS" to specify what they are talking about. Some distributions even rename the kernel to "kernel" or "gentoo-sources" (instead of simply "linux-gentoo", right?) in their repositories to avoid confusion. This can be easily fixed by teaching people to call the OS "GNU/Linux" and call the kernel "Linux". Just like how debian does it.

Bonus argument: When Poettering forks linux and creates "systemd-kerneld" (lowercase) (Also, quote this post when this happens) he and redhat will likely push "GNU/systemd" or maybe "systemd OS" terms to distinguish themselves with current GNU/Linux systems. So it wouldn't be a bad idea to be familiar with these terms to avoid confusion later.


Though, I know Gentoo calls itself as "Gentoo Linux", And i guess not many would be fond of "Gentoo GNU/Linux". but discuss anyway.

TL;DR:

Reasons to call the OS as "GNU/Linux":

1. Gives credits to GNU project where it's due. While retaining the credits to Linus Torvalds for creating the kernel but not giving him extra credit for what he did not make. I probably be very sad right now if i was in RMS shoes.. :(

2. Avoids confusion when talking about the kernel instead of the whole OS. makes "the kernel" postfix after "Linux" unnecessary.

Reasons to call the OS as "Linux OS":

1. "But I've always been calling it like that.."


If the setup was GNU/Linux sure...
GNU/Linux sux's, can't do alot of things. It gets to to a command prompt.

It should be GNU/Linux/KDE/Xorg/Qt/ALSA/vlc/ffmpeg/Firefox/sendmail/postfix/perl... at the very least.
Or you could stop being pretentious and just refer to it as "Linux" as everyone else does... UNLESS you really only use GNU/Linux then sure feel free to refer to your setup as GNU/Linux, I don't and the vast majority of people don't
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 24, 2014 2:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

'GNU/Linux' is just too much of a mouthful. Take the first letter and the last two (we need a vowel, after all), which makes 'Gux'. Doesn't sound good, though, does it? Mind you, now that systemd is taking over userspace the OS will need to be renamed to 'systemd/Linux', which, applying the same concept, becomes 'sux'. That sounds better. ;-)
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 24, 2014 2:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

:D
Brilliant.
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Z12
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 24, 2014 7:25 pm    Post subject: Re: GNU/Linux vs Linux Reply with quote

Naib wrote:
Z12 wrote:
Well, there seems to be alot of systemd vs openRC debate going on.. no reason not to bring this old debate back to life. :D
I've searched a little but found only one topic related to this matter which happened in 2002

FSF has been pushing people to use the term "GNU/Linux" instead of "Linux" when referring to OS for 20 years now..
There are a number of reasons to call the OS as "GNU/Linux" rather than simply "Linux". Richard Stallman explains this fully and in detail in GNU/Linux faq located here: https://www.gnu.org/gnu/gnu-linux-faq.html This is a good read if you haven't read it already, even if you don't agree with him.
If you feel lazy, here is a summery:
- Using "GNU/Linux" gives GNU the credits it deserves. Free software would probably not be a thing if it wasn't for GNU project, Linus Torvalds may have written his kernel even without GNU, but he probably wouldn't make it free and a bare kernel wouldn't get him anywhere anyway. Besides, it really is sad that the kernel developer is stealing all the glory from GNU, for something he didn't make. I already met people who think the free operating system was made by Linus Torvalds and don't even know who RMS is and this is just wrong.

- Calling the os as "Linux" makes it ambiguous when simply saying "Linux" because people have no way of determining if you are talking about the Kernel or the whole Operating system. This will require people to call it "Linux Kernel" or "Linux OS" to specify what they are talking about. Some distributions even rename the kernel to "kernel" or "gentoo-sources" (instead of simply "linux-gentoo", right?) in their repositories to avoid confusion. This can be easily fixed by teaching people to call the OS "GNU/Linux" and call the kernel "Linux". Just like how debian does it.

Bonus argument: When Poettering forks linux and creates "systemd-kerneld" (lowercase) (Also, quote this post when this happens) he and redhat will likely push "GNU/systemd" or maybe "systemd OS" terms to distinguish themselves with current GNU/Linux systems. So it wouldn't be a bad idea to be familiar with these terms to avoid confusion later.


Though, I know Gentoo calls itself as "Gentoo Linux", And i guess not many would be fond of "Gentoo GNU/Linux". but discuss anyway.

TL;DR:

Reasons to call the OS as "GNU/Linux":

1. Gives credits to GNU project where it's due. While retaining the credits to Linus Torvalds for creating the kernel but not giving him extra credit for what he did not make. I probably be very sad right now if i was in RMS shoes.. :(

2. Avoids confusion when talking about the kernel instead of the whole OS. makes "the kernel" postfix after "Linux" unnecessary.

Reasons to call the OS as "Linux OS":

1. "But I've always been calling it like that.."


If the setup was GNU/Linux sure...
GNU/Linux sux's, can't do alot of things. It gets to to a command prompt.

It should be GNU/Linux/KDE/Xorg/Qt/ALSA/vlc/ffmpeg/Firefox/sendmail/postfix/perl... at the very least.
Or you could stop being pretentious and just refer to it as "Linux" as everyone else does... UNLESS you really only use GNU/Linux then sure feel free to refer to your setup as GNU/Linux, I don't and the vast majority of people don't


Actually, Dr. Stallman answers this in the faq.
Quote:
What we say is that you ought to give the system's principal developer a share of the credit. The principal developer is the GNU Project, and the system is basically GNU.

If you feel even more strongly about giving credit where it is due, you might feel that some secondary contributors also deserve credit in the system's name. If so, far be it from us to argue against it. If you feel that X11 deserves credit in the system's name, and you want to call the system GNU/X11/Linux, please do. If you feel that Perl simply cries out for mention, and you want to write GNU/Linux/Perl, go ahead.

Since a long name such as GNU/X11/Apache/Linux/TeX/Perl/Python/FreeCiv becomes absurd, at some point you will have to set a threshold and omit the names of the many other secondary contributions. There is no one obvious right place to set the threshold, so wherever you set it, we won't argue against it.

Different threshold levels would lead to different choices of name for the system. But one name that cannot result from concerns of fairness and giving credit, not for any possible threshold level, is “Linux”. It can't be fair to give all the credit to one secondary contribution (Linux) while omitting the principal contribution (GNU).


Fitzcarraldo wrote:
'GNU/Linux' is just too much of a mouthful. Take the first letter and the last two (we need a vowel, after all), which makes 'Gux'. Doesn't sound good, though, does it? Mind you, now that systemd is taking over userspace the OS will need to be renamed to 'systemd/Linux', which, applying the same concept, becomes 'sux'. That sounds better. ;-)

Stallman suggested "liGNUx" first, but that was a ridiculous name. i personally like the sound of gnu/linux. I call it gnu/linux anyway. The question is new comers need to learn about the gnu part. Infact, most of the times, people who call the GNU/Linux system something else, prove to be incompetent at it. Feel free to look at linuxinsider's review of Gentoo. The author started his review by using "Linux OS" in a sentence, turns out he couldn't figure out how to change the default graphical enviroment in gentoo's livedvd. ofcourse this is not true all the times, But i do lose a little respect for anyone who calls the os by it's kernel. I mean, how would i sound if i say "Hey guys, Windows NT 6.3 sucks."
Also, I talked about systemd in op:
Quote:
Bonus argument: When Poettering forks linux and creates "systemd-kerneld" (lowercase) (Also, quote this post when this happens) he and redhat will likely push "GNU/systemd" or maybe "systemd OS" terms to distinguish themselves with current GNU/Linux systems. So it wouldn't be a bad idea to be familiar with these terms to avoid confusion later.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 24, 2014 8:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I mean, how would i sound if i say "Hey guys, Windows NT 6.3 sucks."
you'd sound damn right :lol:

Seriously now, what's wrong with short names? We know what we're talkig about. "Linux" is more convenient than "GNU/linux".
GNU/Linux makes sense when we compare it to GNU/Hurd and GNU/systemd. It also makes sense when we speak about GNU/Linux as a user-ready package vs Linux as a kernel alone.
Since we are not talking about kernel alone very often, and when we do we tend to know about it, stuffing GNU everywhere gives no benefits.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 24, 2014 8:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's called colloquialism get use to it.
There are lots of things that everyone talks about in a not 100% accurate or politically correct terminology
Take Ibuprofen... people refer to it as a pain killer, it actually isn't. Its an anti-inflammatory drug and the alleviation of an inflammation reduces pain (hence why it only "relieves pain" if it is due to swelling..). THAT does not stop people referring to ibuprofen as a pain killer.

Or take electrical machines... most people refer to them as motors or slightly more accurately electrical motors.... while correctly there is no such thing as an electrical motor (or an electrical generator) AS all machine topologies can operate as a motor or a generator. That again doesn't stop Joe blogs referring to them as motor's or even highly technical people in the field referring to them loosely as motors.

Same goes for Linux. Whats the most widely adopted linux? Android... should that be referred to as GNU/Linux... no, there isn't any gnu. Surprise surprise ... GNU lot have a war & peace about linux, android and gnu.

All this insistence of people referring to it as gnu/linux just comes across as pretentious and an unhealthy dose of butthurt that stems from a lack of self declared importance.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 24, 2014 11:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

szatox wrote:
Quote:
I mean, how would i sound if i say "Hey guys, Windows NT 6.3 sucks."
you'd sound damn right :lol:

Ironically he's making the same "error" he accuses others of: the correct name would be Windows NT 6.3.9600.
Of course the real error is in having an uptight grammar-nazi attitude in the first place.
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 25, 2014 6:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Linux would never even have been developed without the GNU toolchain, and the GNU userland to run useful apps. Period.
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 25, 2014 9:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Languages don't work like that. You don't say "Microsoft Windows OS" just because "windows" could be misinterpreted for that holes in your wall. You don't say "electric bass guitar" every time, you just say "bass" even if it's hugely incomplete. "Cello" doesn't mean anything by itself, the right name is "violoncello". In Italy many people that I know shorten "week end" to "week", because for some stupid reason we actually use the words "week end" (yes, in english) but we never use the english word "week" alone, so "week" is becoming a commonly used shortened form of "week end". How stupid is that? And still, it's something you just live with.
It doesn't matter if there are good reasons to say "GNU/Linux", it's just pedantic. And if someone expects to change "Android" into "Android/Linux", it would be just as pedantic.
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 25, 2014 9:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In short, nobody cares.

That's short for nobody cares enough to say GNU/Linux except RMS.
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 25, 2014 9:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Another way to look at it as some people find this hard to grasp...

Are you refered to to your associates as FIRSTNAME or FIRSTNAME.LASTNAME or FIRSTNAME.LASTNAME son of FATHERSNAME son of GRANDFATHERSNAME because without them you wouldnt exist.
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 25, 2014 3:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naib wrote:
Are you refered to to your associates as FIRSTNAME or FIRSTNAME.LASTNAME or FIRSTNAME.LASTNAME son of FATHERSNAME son of GRANDFATHERSNAME because without them you wouldnt exist.

Bad allusion, since you have an independent existence.

A kernel without a userland is about as useful as an axle without a car.

But no, I don't care what anyone else calls it. Life's far too short, lul.
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 26, 2014 12:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

steveL,

steveL wrote:
... I don't care what anyone else calls it. ...

You should, just a little :)

We need common (shared) names for things to be able to refer to them in discusions.
Look at the misunderstandings that occur due to ambiguities and assumptions.
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 26, 2014 1:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually with all respect to GNU history and high value in Linux, it's actually just stupid to impose GNU/Linux name.

If we follow that kind of logic : there's no Linux kernel without help of GNU tools, we would endup with a stupid real long name but not like you think.
As the real name would be more i386/Linux as without i386 no Linux kernel would had been made (Linus start the whole linux kernel thing because of the i386 features).
So it would be i386/GNU/Linux and as they suggest we can short it, we should just keep i386/Linux.

I think M. Stallman wants GNU/Linux name so people cannot forget GNU contribution or because people may not be aware of the GNU part in a Linux distro.

But even everyone is just calling any distro using linux kernel and gnu tools a "Linux", i don't think any linux users isn't aware of the GNU contribution in Linux ; and even way more popular than Linux, because the GNU contribution to the computers in general goes over Linux (i think people knows GNU more because of the GPL than its contribution to the linux distro, and so upto users not even using Linux).
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 26, 2014 1:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NeddySeagoon wrote:
steveL,

steveL wrote:
... I don't care what anyone else calls it. ...

You should, just a little :)

We need common (shared) names for things to be able to refer to them in discusions.
Look at the misunderstandings that occur due to ambiguities and assumptions.

While that is truw, there is a time and a place to be perfectly precise
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