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krinn
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PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2014 4:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

developer1 wrote:
And Gentoo is not hassle free...... getting 3in1 Brother DCP330C (no matter how connected - locally via usb or via network) is a nightmare, whereas its a breeze even under Arch....

Lets summarize installation oif DCP-330C (as example - to be honest this can be easily reffered to Canon 3in1 as well - tested by me):

Let's summarize even more :
- Someone manage to configure it on arch
- You didn't manage to configure it on gentoo.

What gentoo has to do with that? It just show you will fail at doing it in Arch too. Glad for you Arch provide it so you don't have to do it yourself then.
But you must then use it the way the guy configure it.

This is typically the difference between a source base and a binary distro. One offer pre-build package with options not set by yourself, other solution provide the package, all options available to be set as you wish.

You don't have to justify your choice with examples that are not valid.
Gentoo doesn't provide rpm management tool per default, why should it do that? Gentoo doesn't itself use rpm, but Gentoo still offer you choice to use it.
Can you provide an rpm base distro that, even not install per default, provide choice to use portage? Does Mint provide portage so? Does Mint support ebuild? Can you install in Mint something with only its ebuild?
Just like your error in 3/ : whatever the error is, the error is produce by rpm not gentoo. So if anyone is to blame that would be the rpm tool.

And you aren't force to use portage in gentoo, who is holding a gun and asked you to run emerge or die?
portage is gentoo package manager because gentoo use ebuild, other package manager exists that handle ebuild too, but you can just don't use any if you prefer that ; and you can even use a mix, some programs remain handle by gentoo while you hint portage some other are handle by yourself and portage will stop complain and keep going.
There's no magic there, Mint can be also use without any package manager, once you've install tools to build something from source, you're good to go. But are you sure Mint provide a way to handle your own version of software while still handle others thru its package management tool without complain? Can you install a source glibc and Mint will agree to use that version instead without bugging you to use the one provide by Mint?

source base and binary have advantage and weakness, if you are hurt by weakness of source base distro, that doesn't mean the distro sucks, just that source base isn't your taste and you were the one that do a mistake. Just like it wouldn't be valid complain to say Mint is bloat.
Everyone knows missing options or useless options in a binary package is the weakness of binary distro. Does it mean Mint sucks?
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mv
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PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2014 7:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

developer1 wrote:
getting 3in1 Brother DCP330C [...] is a nightmare. [...]
1. download rpm's from Brother download page

I did not check, but if Brother offers only binary rpm's, it is not gentoo who is to blame but Brother: It lies in the nature of things that binary work only with particular versions of libraries and on particular systems. If Brother offers only rpm's, they probably only support Redhat linux. It might work on other distributions, but this is already mere accident.
The comparison with windows is appropriate here: If you have Vista (say) and some hardware manufacturer offers only XP drivers, you should not blame MS for this. But this is exactly what rpms with binaries mean.
Linux has one accepted way to support all distributions: Provide the source code. If Brother does not do this, do not blame gentoo for this.
(I emphasize once more that I did not verify whether it is really true the Brother offers only rpms with binaries.)
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Yamakuzure
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PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2014 11:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

developer1 wrote:
I did not say that Gentoo (or to be precise - Gentoo's desktop) cannot be beatifully arranged....it can.... depends on user's taste....
I have just said that its more complicated to do it under Gentoo than under any other distros.....
Why? You install the desktop environment / window manager / whatever system like you do on every other distribution and then configure it like in any other distribution. Re-Arranging your KDE Desktop (Or any other) is the same under gentoo as it is under any other distribution.

There is nothing more complicated when configuring you software from within the software, because it is the same software. The installation (Build yourself versus pre-built) is the only difference.
developer1 wrote:
And Gentoo is not hassle free...... getting 3in1 Brother DCP330C (no matter how connected - locally via usb or via network) is a nightmare, whereas its a breeze even under Arch....
This has nothing to do with gentoo but whether you installed the needed software. "cups" and "foomatic" are a real help here. Brother DCP are supported for ages. Maybe you need the right PPD file from the rpm, but if you just cross install something in a such disruptive way, you'll get a real mess for sure.
mv wrote:
If Brother offers only rpm's, they probably only support Redhat linux. It might work on other distributions, but this is already mere accident.
No, they offer .deb files, too! :D However, if you click through the support page, you find those for Linux in english:
http://support.brother.com/g/b/downloadlist.aspx?c=de&lang=de&prod=dcp330c_all&os=127&flang=English wrote:
  • CUPSwrapper Printer driver Source Codes 13.02.2008 (101-1) 0.74 MB
  • Scanner Driver Source Codes 16.12.2009 (0.2.5-1) 1.29 MB


However, I daresay one of the default foomatic Brother DCP drivers *should* work. And if not, it would be a good exercise to write your first ebuild, develper1, so the RPMs are used correctly. ;-) (There isn't much in the RPMs as far as I can see.)
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developer1
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PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2014 5:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

krinn wrote:
Let's summarize even more :
- Someone manage to configure it on arch
- You didn't manage to configure it on gentoo.

Yes - you know why? Because programmers of Gentoo are trying to make simple things as hard as they possibly can....... Its not my fault that Im unable to install drivers on Gentoo, whereas on Arch (as well as on any other distro) its a breeze......

To be honest its simplier to replace Gentoo with almost any distro you can find than to install one rpm which is 0,3 mb only...... strange? not for Gentoo fans.

======

cups && foomatic :) by default when you go into printers > new (add; depends), there is whole bunch of printers (Brothers, Canons, etc etc) but there is no dcp330c. So Foomatic (as well as cups) does not support dcp330c by default. It becomes visible after instalation of driver, which cannot be done so the printer stays out of the list.......simple & straighforward

One of default driver should work? None of them work in fact. They are for different hardware....... It would be extremely strange if they worked........

@krinn - No. Mint is one of the best Linux distro ever. They are about to release new version 17 very soon - I love their system, its great.
I dont say Gentoo is bloat (or whatever) - I just think it s far too complicated.
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GFCCAE6xF
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PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2014 5:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

developer1 wrote:
Because programmers of Gentoo are trying to make simple things as hard as they possibly can


I don't completely agree with you but that reminded me of this :lol:
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mrbassie
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PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2014 7:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

rorgoroth wrote:
developer1 wrote:
Because programmers of Gentoo are trying to make simple things as hard as they possibly can


I don't completely agree with you but that reminded me of this :lol:


Francis on the top right kind've ruins the joke.
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developer1
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PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2014 8:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

openSuse 32bit system: also using rpm, Ivew just downloaded && installed both printer and scanner. All I did was to doubleclick on rpm/s..... thats it :) the same rpms as with Gentooo.....
Any comments Gentoo fans?

I have one: Gentoo makes everything extremely difficult.....
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gerard82
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PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2014 9:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Any comments Gentoo fans?

I have one: Gentoo makes everything extremely difficult.....

Then find yourself a distro that's easy.
Nobody forces you to use Gentoo.
Gerard.
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YPenguin
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PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2014 9:53 pm    Post subject: rpm Reply with quote

@developer1
But you did notice that rpm is not the native distribution file format of Gentoo?
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steveL
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PostPosted: Wed May 07, 2014 6:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Guys, stop feeding the troll. Honestly since he started, all he's done is poke you with crap about how Gentoo is rubbish because his idiotic method of installing drivers from another OS didn't work. AFAIC he doesn't even run Gentoo, he's just trying to get a reaction; no doubt he'll start about how wonderful systemd is soon.
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developer1
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PostPosted: Wed May 07, 2014 9:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

steveL wrote:
Guys, stop feeding the troll. Honestly since he started, all he's done is poke you with crap about how Gentoo is rubbish because his idiotic method of installing drivers from another OS didn't work. AFAIC he doesn't even run Gentoo, he's just trying to get a reaction; no doubt he'll start about how wonderful systemd is soon.

Calm down a little.....

I am not a troll. And Gentoo is far too complicated - it tries to do simple things as complicated as possible - whats wrong in doubleclicking rpm/use console package manager to install it? nothing - but Gentoo devs seems to require sth much more complicated.....

I run Gentoo as a multiboot with other - very friendly (also rpm based) - Linux distros

And one more thing - since Gentoo is based on BSD style ports, Gentoo does not have right to name Linux as its not Linux anymore..... Its BSD.
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seoneal7
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PostPosted: Wed May 07, 2014 10:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

developer1 wrote:

And one more thing - since Gentoo is based on BSD style ports, Gentoo does not have right to name Linux as its not Linux anymore..... Its BSD.


LOL. And Slackware is BSD, too. Forget the kernel.
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developer1
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PostPosted: Wed May 07, 2014 10:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

seoneal7 wrote:
developer1 wrote:

And one more thing - since Gentoo is based on BSD style ports, Gentoo does not have right to name Linux as its not Linux anymore..... Its BSD.


LOL. And Slackware is BSD, too. Forget the kernel.

Agrred. Thats why I do not use Slackware.....
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seoneal7
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PostPosted: Wed May 07, 2014 10:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Make sure never to use Crux, either. That prt-get is a real bother.
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khayyam
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PostPosted: Wed May 07, 2014 12:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

developer1 wrote:
I am not a troll. And Gentoo is far too complicated - it tries to do simple things as complicated as possible - whats wrong in doubleclicking rpm/use console package manager to install it? nothing - but Gentoo devs seems to require sth much more complicated...

whats "wrong" with just "doubleclicking" is that it produces users who ....

developer1 wrote:
And one more thing - since Gentoo is based on BSD style ports, Gentoo does not have right to name Linux as its not Linux anymore..... Its BSD.

... don't know what "linux" is ...

best ... khay
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Chiitoo
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PostPosted: Wed May 07, 2014 12:09 pm    Post subject: ><)))°€ Reply with quote

Be they trolls or jötnar, hobbitses or halflings...


developer1,


Similar to what others brought up already, that almost seems to me like complaining about Windows executables not being supported natively out of the box: they're not made for Gentoo.


Regarding friendliness, since you mentioned Mint, I'll use Linux Mint Debian Edition as an example, which I just recently installed that on a test machine. It didn't quite see the bluetooth keyboard that I was using, and while I did get it to detect it with help of my mouse for the duration of the installation, I couldn't log in afterwards... That did not seem too friendly to me!

The keyboard works fine in shells I install Gentoo in. ^^

I'm not bashing Mint on that, though I kind of expected a little that a bluetooth keyboard would have just worked on this day and age. This doesn't seem to be a Mint-specific issue either.


That said, I actually find Gentoo to be more simple in many ways. If you want things to work by clicking on them, you can make them work by clicking on them, although you don't have to. I think the only downside, if it can be called one, is the compiling everything from source, though I think that's only a downside for those who have the need to really save power, or/and to those who don't have the power.

I, for one, apparently like compiling. I also like not being forced into using stuff I don't want to use, though forced might be a bit of a strong word, since for many things it's possible to go around on other distributions as well (I think¿?). We could also speak of defaults that I don't appreciate too much.


It seems to me as if there might be a bit of a combination of misunderstanding, and a bad sort of first experience due to configuration issue(s) leading to longer than necessary compile times. I could be wrong, of course. ^^;

I also like to keep in mind the fact that I started with Gentoo without any previous experience on Linux, aside from clicking things a little on Ubuntu for a few hours... which was boring! So with that in mind, Gentoo can not be too complicated.

To each their own. I would not recommend Gentoo to everyone, or anyone, which is one of the reasons I'm looking into them others so as to pick something to recommend to folks.

I've not found one yet. It used to be Mint, but the wind of change is blowing...


There's no doubt that ultimately, it will die, but before that, may Gentoo live long, and prosper, I maybe guess.
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TomWij
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PostPosted: Wed May 07, 2014 12:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

developer1 wrote:
I am not a troll.


True, we shouldn't call other distribution's users or developers and their contributions that way; you're an user or developer that doesn't understand Gentoo and/or is interested in it and therefore doesn't use it. A lot of people here do use it, so, we have a very good understanding and/or interest in it; you demonstrate that that understanding/interest isn't clear to you, perhaps because we don't advertise and/or document it prominently enough. It has to do with the limited manpower we can put into that, as we're a smaller group with specific needs compared to other distributions.

developer1 wrote:
And Gentoo is far too complicated - it tries to do simple things as complicated as possible - whats wrong in doubleclicking rpm/use console package manager to install it? nothing - but Gentoo devs seems to require sth much more complicated.....


Because we want to have a serious amount of control over the package; another distro installs a lot of bloat alongside your package, on Gentoo that's filtered out to receive just what you want which results in an overall lower download/disk/memory/processing/insecurity/... footprint. So, to benefit more of that we need more cost; which translates itself into compilation time, which is quite reasonable if it is optimized a bit. I'm not at all bothered by my weekly upgrade that runs in the background for an hour or so in the weekend.

An added bonus is that it is quite simple to patch something of something you use; don't like that loading screen that pops up, create a patch with a single line change that'll apply it to any future update and it is gone for as long as the patch survives. I'm quite happy with my Gentoo; it's not complicated, it's not boring me out with waiting, it just works...

developer1 wrote:
I run Gentoo as a multiboot with other - very friendly (also rpm based) - Linux distros

And one more thing - since Gentoo is based on BSD style ports, Gentoo does not have right to name Linux as its not Linux anymore..... Its BSD.


A distribution is named after its kernel and what comes along that, not about its package manager alone; in that train of thoughts, we do have a Gentoo/FreeBSD project.

https://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/gentoo-alt/bsd/fbsd/

Chiitoo wrote:
There's no doubt that ultimately, it will die, but before that, may Gentoo live long, and prosper, I maybe guess.


+1; we're going strong and are growing at this very moment, but perhaps we do the opposite the next month; we can't tell the future in advance, but we can live and enjoy this very moment for as long as it lasts.
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PostPosted: Wed May 07, 2014 12:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

developer1,

You are missing the whole point of Gentoo.

Gentoo is a toolkit that allows you to make your own distro. That means you must make all the choices that binary distros make (and hide) for you.
Those choices start at install time.

As an example, Gentoo users can do emergs @debian or emerge @fedora18
Of course, they would need to write the debian and fedora18 sets and profiles first and set ROOT=, so the Gentoo inslall was not messed up.
Gentoo really provides that flexibility.

It you don't want to make and maintain your own distro, use a premade distro. Of course, then you loose control.
The choice is yours.
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developer1
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PostPosted: Wed May 07, 2014 3:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NeddySeagoon wrote:
(...)Of course, then you loose control.

False. With premade distro you gain full control over your OS.
You loose control once you finish installing Gentoo. Said but true.
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mrbassie
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PostPosted: Wed May 07, 2014 4:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="developer1"]
steveL wrote:

And one more thing - since Gentoo is based on BSD style ports, Gentoo does not have right to name Linux as its not Linux anymore..... Its BSD.


Linux is a drop in replacement for the UNIX kernel. Lot's of different groups bundle the GNU userland which are drop in replacements for the rest of UNIX with Linux and the result is manyy variants of the combined GNU/Linux operating system. For what ever reason just calling it "Linux" caught on. The fact that Gentoo contains GNU and Linux means it's a much "Linux" as Fedora or Debian or anything else.
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TomWij
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PostPosted: Wed May 07, 2014 5:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

developer1 wrote:
False. With premade distro you gain full control over your OS.
You loose control once you finish installing Gentoo. Said but true.


Why? Gentoo gives us full control, whereas a premade distro takes away a lot of that control due to forcing particular choices in binary form; so, your statements are questionable.
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developer1
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PostPosted: Wed May 07, 2014 5:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

@TonmWij
Yes - binary distros do install alot of what you probably dont want/use, but:

a) you can unistall them after install is over.
b) you can manipulate installer in the way it will not install any bloat <= very limited knowledge required here....... Of course this can only be done when you 'burn' you iso into usb stick.......

@NeddySeagoon:
Gentoo is a toolkit to make distro - right but someone forgot to make this toolkit easy to use....
Binary distro does not have to hide most/any choices from me.....even more - with binary distro (and a little bit of knowledge of that distro) you can make your installer to ask you everything (just like in Gentoo)...... In most distro there is so called text-installer as an option from live-booot menu........

Dont give me an examples - its waste of time as I am on openSuse most of the time, and Im on Gentoo only for testing - Im not doing any serious things (like projects etc) in Gentoo - its too unstable (especially after emerge --sync or --world)......
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developer1
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PostPosted: Wed May 07, 2014 5:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TomWij wrote:
developer1 wrote:
False. With premade distro you gain full control over your OS.
You loose control once you finish installing Gentoo. Said but true.


Why? Gentoo gives us full control, whereas a premade distro takes away a lot of that control due to forcing particular choices in binary form; so, your statements are questionable.

Why is it like this? Many reasons for this. Just to name most important:

- after emerge --sync (--world) in 99% you are in (more/less) broken sysstem,
- every root action takes huge ammount of time,
- when installing something, the core thing is only one that is installed, dependencies are only suggested (not installed),
- when there is conflict between packages/its dependencies you are left alone - no automation at all,

And - everything above is done without even one question from OS...... You name this controllable system?

And statement that binary distros take away control from you is false as (with little knowledge) can have control over ANY aspect of your distro. And one more advantage - you are informed all the time what your OS is doing...... more importantly - you can interfere freely.....
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TomWij
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PostPosted: Wed May 07, 2014 5:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

developer1 wrote:
@TomWij
Yes - binary distros do install alot of what you probably dont want/use, but:

a) you can unistall them after install is over.
b) you can manipulate installer in the way it will not install any bloat <= very limited knowledge required here....... Of course this can only be done when you 'burn' you iso into usb stick.......


They lose the ability to control ./configure as well as do patching to the source code, in a way that the distribution supports you to do that; therefore, while you can uninstall it as a whole or remove particular files, you can't easily control it any further than that to change what the package does and supports. You can do that on Gentoo.

developer1 wrote:
but someone forgot to make this toolkit easy to use....


Everything is well documented; so, using it is easy. Even if you have a question, there are multiple support channels out there to help you.

developer1 wrote:
Binary distro does not have to hide most/any choices from me.....


They however do hide it.

developer1 wrote:
even more - with binary distro (and a little bit of knowledge of that distro) you can make your installer to ask you everything (just like in Gentoo)......


No, Gentoo goes way further than controlling which files get installed; that's where other premade binary distributions stop and Gentoo starts in terms of level of control.

developer1 wrote:
Im not doing any serious things (like projects etc) in Gentoo - its too unstable (especially after emerge --sync or --world)......


What do you mean by unstable?

developer1 wrote:
- after emerge --sync (--world) in 99% you are in (more/less) broken sysstem,


Works 99% of the time.

developer1 wrote:
- every root action takes huge ammount of time,


That's a statement that's false simply because not every root action takes a huge amount of time; for example:

Quote:
$ time echo -n

real 0m0.000s
user 0m0.000s
sys 0m0.000s


developer1 wrote:
- when installing something, the core thing is only one that is installed, dependencies are only suggested (not installed),


Dependencies are installed, the package wouldn't build or work without them; so, I don't see what you mean by this.

developer1 wrote:
- when there is conflict between packages/its dependencies you are left alone - no automation at all,


Conflicts are conflicts; Portage solves a large set of them, but some are really in your control as you have to make a choice. These are choices that a premade binary distro hide from you...

developer1 wrote:
And statement that binary distros take away control from you is false as (with little knowledge) can have control over ANY aspect of your distro. And one more advantage - you are informed all the time what your OS is doing...... more importantly - you can interfere freely.....


Well, the point is that Gentoo allows you to control ANY aspect extremely easily; whereas on other distributions, you'll have to do this manually and painfully in a LFS style way. Want to apply a patch? Download the package yourself. Do the tarball reconfiguration yourself. Do ./configure .... yourself. Run make yourself. Run make install yourself. In addition to that it's not even tracked by a package manager anymore. And that's where Gentoo comes in, it automates all of that such that applying a patch is as easy as storing it in the right folder under /etc/portage/patches. Yes, I know what my Gentoo does; because this is all logged (which is configurable), so I can take a quick look whether that patch applies and so on...
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PostPosted: Wed May 07, 2014 8:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TomWij wrote:
[emerge -uvDN world] Works 99% of the time.

Actually (at least in my system) it works 100% of the time.
Gentoo devs, please, do something... my updates are getting boring!
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