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halma
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 04, 2006 10:23 am    Post subject: AMD64 version, is there really an advantage? Reply with quote

I have a 64-bit processor (AMD Athlon 64 3200+). Is there any distinct advantage to installing the AMD64 version of Gentoo, and compiling everything in 64-bit?

I'm thinking that perhaps it could even be slower, because pointers would be 8-bytes instead of 4, therefore in effect halving the CPU memory cache.

I have a new gentoo installation, I installed emacs off of the AMD64 package CD, and it's the slowest emacs I have ever seen; it takes about 5 seconds to load!
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 04, 2006 11:14 am    Post subject: Re: AMD64 version, is there really an advantage? Reply with quote

halma wrote:
I have a 64-bit processor (AMD Athlon 64 3200+). Is there any distinct advantage to installing the AMD64 version of Gentoo, and compiling everything in 64-bit?


In one word: No.
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stringbean
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 04, 2006 3:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

halma - It all depends on what you do with your machine. Is your machine primarily for gaming, a server or what? 64 bit Gentoo has some performance gains over 32 bit but it all depends on what you are using the system for. There is no simple yes/no answer (dispite what blubb might say).

You say that you 'installed' off the AMD64 package CD and it ran extremely slowly. How on earth did you manage that if you are running 32 bit? You must have a 64 bit kernel to run 64 bit apps on!
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gametime
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 04, 2006 4:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It might just be me, but I've installed both 32-bit and 64-bit on my AMD64 machine and noticed quite a big difference in the time it took to compile things.

I also notice when i handle really large image sizes in gimp & inkscape that it handles that faster too. So far the only draw back to compiling everything 64-bit has been that I haven't gotten flash working in firefox but I don't really care about flash.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 04, 2006 8:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some programs are way faster on 64 bit. GMP is one example. Overall you probably wont notice too much of a change for regular use, but it does have some distinct advantages in some areas.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 05, 2006 2:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just as a word of advice, you CAN get flash working by simply using '*-bin' packages. I basically use 'openoffice-bin' and 'mozilla-firefox-bin' all the time because I need to use flash (and MS Office capability) at work. Solves all my problems for me!
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 05, 2006 2:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm really happy after I moved to 64. I've notice improvement (performance) when dealing with pictures, movies (mencoder), compilations and overall system.

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halma
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 05, 2006 4:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you for your replies.

stringbean wrote:
halma - It all depends on what you do with your machine. Is your machine primarily for gaming, a server or what? 64 bit Gentoo has some performance gains over 32 bit but it all depends on what you are using the system for. There is no simple yes/no answer (dispite what blubb might say).

I'm a programmer, I use my computer for development, most of my big projects are related to 3D graphics processing. Of course, I also use my computer to play games, watch movies, and for the internet.

Quote:
You say that you 'installed' off the AMD64 package CD and it ran extremely slowly. How on earth did you manage that if you are running 32 bit? You must have a 64 bit kernel to run 64 bit apps on!

I believe my kernel is 64 bit, I compiled it myself from the AMD64 Universal Installation CD.

Is there any disadvantage to making everything 64-bit? Other than flash not working in firefox?
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Bluekkis
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 05, 2006 5:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Is there any disadvantage to making everything 64-bit? Other than flash not working in firefox?


No disadvantages other than that really. Some programs might work slower due to lacking amd64 assembly optimisations and some programs might use bit more memory due to pointers being 64bit. I see 64bitness as win-win situation, can't really loose anything but got everything to win.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2006 6:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well I'm posting just to post I guess... waiting on a download.

I do know of one area that 64 bit will give you some benefit. Lets say you have a server that uses or NEEDS more than 4GB of RAM. Then it will definitely give you some performance gains.

There is also some technical articles on the Gentoo AMD64 FAQ. Just look for the question that you posed, "Will I see a difference?"

http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/gentoo-amd64-faq.xml#perfup

Like most people say, its really all dependant on what you do and whether the software you use the most has been "optimized" to take advantage of the fancy smancy features in the hardware.

For some odd reason, hardware features always seems to be ahead of software development... but I digress.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 07, 2006 12:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you do a lot of work with multimedia then you will see a speed increase. If you do a lot of gaming it's a mixed bag with the results usually ending up with a stalemate between 32-bit and 64-bit. If you have a server that sees lots of usage, you will probably get better performance in 64-bit. For your average desktop usage scenarios, web browsing and checking e-mail, you will not see a difference.

Quite frankly, there's not really any reason not to simply use a 64-bit environment if you have the hardware requirements and at least 1GB of RAM (Not that 64-bit OSes require that much, it's just a comfort level I myself have. 512MB would most likely be fine, but 1GB is dirt cheap these days and more often than not comes standard in prebuilt machines). Multimedia capabilities? You can have mplayer-bin and mplayer side-by-side until some video codecs finally get rewritten into 64-bit. Flash in your browser? Use Opera, it's free and only available in a 32-bit binary. 32-bit code does not incur any penalties being run in a 64-bit environment.

P.S. -- There's Firefox-bin and Mozilla-bin for the Gecko lovers out there. I find Opera to be more compatible, myself.
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 20, 2006 2:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I run the AMD64 version of Gentoo on my Athlon X2 box and it runs like greased lightning- until it is left running for about 3 weeks and the 2GB of RAM I have in the box gets filled up. Then performance goes down some as it occasionally has to swap to disk. I'd suggest 4GB of RAM on an AMD64 box that has to stay up for any length of time and gets used hard.
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 20, 2006 3:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SteveBallmersChair wrote:
I run the AMD64 version of Gentoo on my Athlon X2 box and it runs like greased lightning- until it is left running for about 3 weeks and the 2GB of RAM I have in the box gets filled up. Then performance goes down some as it occasionally has to swap to disk. I'd suggest 4GB of RAM on an AMD64 box that has to stay up for any length of time and gets used hard.

I've had my computer on for about 2 weeks straight in AMD64 (running Gnome or Fluxbox) and it's just fine - all on 512MB of RAM. I think 4GB is a little overkill; maybe you have a memory leak of some kind?
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 20, 2006 4:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

andrewd18 wrote:
SteveBallmersChair wrote:
I run the AMD64 version of Gentoo on my Athlon X2 box and it runs like greased lightning- until it is left running for about 3 weeks and the 2GB of RAM I have in the box gets filled up. Then performance goes down some as it occasionally has to swap to disk. I'd suggest 4GB of RAM on an AMD64 box that has to stay up for any length of time and gets used hard.

I've had my computer on for about 2 weeks straight in AMD64 (running Gnome or Fluxbox) and it's just fine - all on 512MB of RAM. I think 4GB is a little overkill; maybe you have a memory leak of some kind?


I run fine with 1gb, and previously I had 512 mb and it worked fine. This box almost never is resetted or turned off. The uptime usually can be measured in weeks or months. Never had memory problems unless using apps that have memory leaks, being gecko based ones the most problematic of all, so, stay away from mozilla and firefox if you are experiencing those problems. :P
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 20, 2006 4:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nope, no Gecko here- I use Konqueror and the rest of the KDE gang. The memory usage seems to have stuck at ~150-200MB free as in not application memory and a few hundred MB of my 6GB striped-over-two-drives swap used.
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 20, 2006 6:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

well, you have a memory leak, amd64 arch does not require anywhere near that much memory. (And also seing the memory increase over 3 weeks and not go back down.. defenatly a leak).
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 20, 2006 6:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SteveBallmersChair wrote:
Nope, no Gecko here- I use Konqueror and the rest of the KDE gang. The memory usage seems to have stuck at ~150-200MB free as in not application memory and a few hundred MB of my 6GB striped-over-two-drives swap used.

Are you 100% sure you are looking at actual program memory use and not including memory used as disk cache?

Edit: I missed the swap being used part of your post. Sure sounds like a memory leak then.
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 20, 2006 8:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SteveBallmersChair wrote:
Nope, no Gecko here- I use Konqueror and the rest of the KDE gang.

<flamewar> Well there's the problem. :lol: :lol: :lol: </flamewar>
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 20, 2006 9:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

andrewd18 wrote:
SteveBallmersChair wrote:
Nope, no Gecko here- I use Konqueror and the rest of the KDE gang.

<flamewar> Well there's the problem. :lol: :lol: :lol: </flamewar>


Let's try to keep this thread usefull, there are already enough battlefields in the forum. :P

Back to the topic, haven't you noticed any particular application using an insane quantity of memory?

I have had problems with nano, when killing terminals with nano open, it sometimes would, instead of dying along with the terminal, go crazy and use almost 100% cpu. Any application can have a leak, not only big ones. Bugs and design flaws are what define this erratic behaviours, and not the size of the application. I would look deeper at top or htop output.
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 20, 2006 9:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

andrewd18 wrote:
SteveBallmersChair wrote:
Nope, no Gecko here- I use Konqueror and the rest of the KDE gang.

<flamewar> Well there's the problem. :lol: :lol: :lol: </flamewar>


I have used Gnome and XFCE and they're both very good too, so I'm certainly not trying to start a flamewar. This box just happens to be running KDE as my laptop (Gentoo 2006.0 x86) is XFCE and the lab computers at school are Gnome on RHEL and Fedora 4. I like to keep up on and see what the some of the different DEs have to offer. IMO, no one is perfect and no one is really that much better at everything than any other. All have good points and bad points and more good ones than bad ones. About the only DE I have come to really despise is Explorer as it just sucks, plain and simple.
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 20, 2006 9:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

6thpink wrote:
Let's try to keep this thread usefull, there are already enough battlefields in the forum. :P

Back to the topic, haven't you noticed any particular application using an insane quantity of memory?

I have had problems with nano, when killing terminals with nano open, it sometimes would, instead of dying along with the terminal, go crazy and use almost 100% cpu.

Ditto.

Nano is the only app I have had this issue with. It doesn't always happen but it can clearly be seen in the output of top hoarding the CPU.
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 20, 2006 9:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

6thpink wrote:
andrewd18 wrote:
SteveBallmersChair wrote:
Nope, no Gecko here- I use Konqueror and the rest of the KDE gang.

<flamewar> Well there's the problem. :lol: :lol: :lol: </flamewar>


Let's try to keep this thread usefull, there are already enough battlefields in the forum. :P

Back to the topic, haven't you noticed any particular application using an insane quantity of memory?

I have had problems with nano, when killing terminals with nano open, it sometimes would, instead of dying along with the terminal, go crazy and use almost 100% cpu. Any application can have a leak, not only big ones. Bugs and design flaws are what define this erratic behaviours, and not the size of the application. I would look deeper at top or htop output.


I had to restart the computer after I wanted to run VMware and the system's HDDs started to grind like mad swapping just to start the program. I looked at top and ksysguard and the biggest resident-memory-hog program was Xorg (38 MB.) There were just a lot of kio_http instances all taking up about 10-11 MB RAM...would that have been it?
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 20, 2006 10:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is nothing wrong with that in a first view. Kio-slaves are multithreaded, so it is not strange that some similar procs are shown. Most of the memory is shared memory, so, dont worry about them.

If you just resetted I would leave top open laying somewhere and look from time to time to see if any programs increases the amount of memory it uses in an insane way over the time. Maybe is something that degradates with the time, in that case, since you just rebooted you will need to wait a bit and see what happens. Just do what you usually do with your box in the while. If there is a memory leak in some way, it will show itself over time.
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 20, 2006 10:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks. I'll keep using the machine and in about another 2 weeks, let you know if it's still doing okay to diagnose where the RAM is going.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 21, 2006 3:17 pm    Post subject: Reclaiming lost memory Reply with quote

I think Linux reclaims all "lost" memory upon killing the leaky process. So if I'm not mistaken, all memory leaks are solved by an appropriate killall something -sigkill... No need to reboot.
Or is there?

BTW, I have just finished an amd_64 arch install with an Opteron 165 overclocked to HTT 250Mhz, and God help me it's FAST! So fregging, bloody FAST I could barely beleive it... I rebuilt stage1 and stage2 in less than 4 hours!
Don't know if it would be much slower with an x86 Linux, but... honestly, it can't be much faster than this.
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