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-JeaN-
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Joined: 25 Nov 2002
Posts: 211
Location: PaRiS :D
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 Posted: Thu Jan 30, 2003 2:09 pm Post subject: Night brings ideas |
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Hello, yesterday before goin to bed i did a
Then i was hearing my comp working ( i have a little flat, and i don't have zalman cooler yet to make it silent.. ) and i was then in bed somehow thinking of gentoo doing all his compilation jobs..
Then i had several ideas  lol you might laugh :
Idea 1 : Having a p2p distro. So then when you need a package, it could directly be retrived via p2p ( peer 2 peer ) and even maybe optimized packages already compiled and gz tared.. emerge kde then would result on a search on the p2p network of kde, version3.1, compiled for the specific cpu. If not found, then download the normal source for real compilation.
Idea 2 : I might be wrong, but i was wondering in my half dreaming state why it was needed to go through the installation process all the time ? Ok it offers great personalisation of the distribution and you need to do it only once, but in the other hand it's time consuming, and probably it's time others users have already spent for you. What about hmmm some kind of "iso building" program, that would according to the peripherals / cpu / disk configuration / programs wanted, "build" an iso specific in real time, and then offer it to download, and allow the user just to do a one click instant installation ( or close to that ) ? I dunno if this sounds irrealistic and i dunno if such thing would be possible / considerable.. Then though if it would be possible, the installation of linux would be so greatly improved, that it could be a good argument for the linux community. What does windows actually when installing is checking the hardware you have, and install the good drivers, and when it doesn't find them, it simply install nothing, it's better than asking people to install every single peripheral, and go compile the kernel themselve Optimizing the whole thing should be available AFTER installation though, for those who know what they want and what they are doing. But on my own i don't really care the way the actual installation is, i can cope easy with it, but i guess it could frighten more than one other people ..
Idea 3 : having more than simple "emerge [program name]" but some kind of things like "emerge php-apache-mysql-server" or "emerge kde-openoffice-desktop" options ..
Those ideas sound weird now that i read them, but hmm i though oh what the heck gonna put them on gentoo forum and "maybe" they have a sense |
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krusty_ar
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Joined: 03 Oct 2002
Posts: 560
Location: Rosario, Argentina
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| Posted: Thu Jan 30, 2003 2:29 pm Post subject: |
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idea 1: great idea!!!!! 
idea 2: isn't this GRP? (methinks)
idea 3: already exists, you can create an "empty" package that depends on the ones that you want to group (see kde.ebuild for example)
but idea 1: great idea!!!!!
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-JeaN-
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Joined: 25 Nov 2002
Posts: 211
Location: PaRiS :D
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| Posted: Thu Jan 30, 2003 2:42 pm Post subject: |
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Oh i had another idea that i just remember now 
What about "archive" machines, which would just do compilation of packages with specific optimization lines, and for specific cpus, and then make the package avail for download ? A powerfull network of machines could compile a package in very few seconds probably and then store the resulting package, so then when someone else needs the same package with same ( or similar ) optimisation he could directly download it ?
Then an emerge kde ( for example ) would offer a list of compiled packages, for example
| Code: | Here are the compiled packages available :
kde-base : optimisation line : -march=athlon-xp -O3 -pipe
kde-base : optimisation line : -march=athlon-xp -O2 -pipe -fomit-frame-pointer |
( don't check close to the content of that code )
Though Krusty you are right GRP is great, and i think that's somehow what made me think about it , but it's more about installation itself, than whole package system |
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BillyD
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Joined: 05 May 2002
Posts: 323
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Thu Jan 30, 2003 2:49 pm Post subject: |
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Nice ideas - I think the only really limiting factor would be actually funds for setting all the machines up. Maybe if it could be done along the lines of a distributed computing setup - everyone sharing spare cycles to speed up configure time...
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Sven Vermeulen
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Joined: 29 Aug 2002
Posts: 1345
Location: Mechelen, Belgium
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| Posted: Thu Jan 30, 2003 3:07 pm Post subject: |
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Actually you are forgetting one of the powerfullest things about Gentoo: USE-flags. If you have precompiled packages, they are compiled with specific USE-settings. So you want to make a distinction between the several USE-flags, and this would give you lots of different binary packages for one package.
Thing about a package that has 4 possible use-settings. Then you have 16 possible USE-flag-specific binaries, multiplied by let's say about 16 different architecture-specific compilations (let's say everyone takes -O3 -pipe) which gives you about 256 versions for one package.
You have some spare hundred GiB ?
BTW, I'm not saying it's a bad idea, using a p2p that gives you the possibility is good, however it does form other problems, such as security (oh yeah, let me just compile a frequently asked package with a trojan and maintainability.
BTW2: At work we're using this: 1 compilation server (huge amount of processing power) which makes all the binaries depending on the requesting machine, and each machine individually installes his package using emerge -B. |
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-JeaN-
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Joined: 25 Nov 2002
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Location: PaRiS :D
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| Posted: Thu Jan 30, 2003 3:20 pm Post subject: |
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You are right about the loads of different packages possible.
Though even if i'm a developer myself, i haven't yet understand the whole system of USE. I'm also pretty new to linux, i've been using windows for years.
If i understand good, when you specify "USE=kde" and do emerge xmms ( for example ) the compilation is A LOT different than if you would have "USE=gnome" ?
I think then if the both processes are way different, there is a mistake in the way dependecies are managed. I like the idea of modules of the kernel, then to take profit of the "USE=kde" it should also be somehow a kind of module added to the program, so then the main compilation of the program would be unique, making it able to be precompiled for several platforms.
I don't know if i'm right or clear ..
The security problem doesn't exist on the "Archive network" solution, though about the p2p idea... you can be right, even if i think that there must be a solution to make the security problem less a problem |
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krusty_ar
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Joined: 03 Oct 2002
Posts: 560
Location: Rosario, Argentina
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| Posted: Thu Jan 30, 2003 3:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Sven Vermeulen wrote: | | which gives you about 256 versions for one package. |
hey, i know there's thousands of songs out there and i'm able to get them all via p2p
| Sven Vermeulen wrote: | | however it does form other problems, such as security (oh yeah, let me just compile a frequently asked package with a trojan and maintainability. |
maintainability won't be an issue since a different version wll be just a different version (the same as using different USE flags)
about security that's a good ponit, is this a showstoper?
| wrote: | | Nice ideas - I think the only really limiting factor would be actually funds for setting all the machines up. Maybe if it could be done along the lines of a distributed computing setup - everyone sharing spare cycles to speed up configure time... |
i like this, but there's the same security problem as above. 
does distcc gives some kind of security (trusted hosts, etc)
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Sven Vermeulen
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Joined: 29 Aug 2002
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Location: Mechelen, Belgium
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| Posted: Thu Jan 30, 2003 4:07 pm Post subject: |
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| -JeaN- wrote: |
Though even if i'm a developer myself, i haven't yet understand the whole system of USE. I'm also pretty new to linux, i've been using windows for years.
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Think about buying a car, but the car you want doesn't have everything standard in it: most of them are optional. So you must make choices: do you want the car with airconditioning? Automated or not? And what about the mirrors, should they be heated electrically? And the bumper, must it have its color the same as the rest of your car, or may it me a black bumper?
The same goes with some programs. If you compile apache (a webserver), do you want support for ssl? php? ... |
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petu
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Joined: 01 Sep 2002
Posts: 269
Location: Turku, Finland
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| Posted: Thu Jan 30, 2003 5:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Sven Vermeulen wrote: |
BTW, I'm not saying it's a bad idea, using a p2p that gives you the possibility is good, however it does form other problems, such as security (oh yeah, let me just compile a frequently asked package with a trojan and maintainability.
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AFAIK security problems can be fully solved by using digital signatures for packages that are to be downloaded via p2p-protocol. GnuPGP is a great tool!
IMO Gentoo developers should start signing ebuilds with pgp-keys even if there won't ever be a p2p-download option. This is because if someone hijacks a rsync server and makes modifications to ebuilds he can have hundreds of trojaned gentoo boxes. |
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Sven Vermeulen
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Joined: 29 Aug 2002
Posts: 1345
Location: Mechelen, Belgium
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| Posted: Thu Jan 30, 2003 6:15 pm Post subject: |
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owkay, so I digitally sign my created binary packages... that doesn't change anything.
Digitally signing is only of importance if you trust the ppl from who you know that sign the packages. However, in a p2p network this isn't the case. |
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rac
Bodhisattva
Joined: 30 May 2002
Posts: 6553
Location: Japanifornia
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| Posted: Thu Jan 30, 2003 8:48 pm Post subject: |
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Sorry I didn't catch this thread in time, but the P2P issue has been discussed in OSNews Article.
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petu
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Joined: 01 Sep 2002
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Location: Turku, Finland
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| Posted: Thu Jan 30, 2003 9:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Sven Vermeulen wrote: |
Digitally signing is only of importance if you trust the ppl from who you know that sign the packages. However, in a p2p network this isn't the case. |
Yes but if all of the gentoo ebuilds would be signed with one pgp-key and the pgp-key would be availabe at a keyserver=>You have the key and you trust it=> Then it's the same where you get stuff that's signed with the key. |
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rac
Bodhisattva
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TheCoop
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| Posted: Tue Apr 01, 2003 7:07 pm Post subject: |
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the p2p distributed source downloading is the most useful thing IMHO, as it would greatly reduce the load on the rsync servers and its also scaleable.
The problem is integrating it with portage...
Also, gentoos own p2p system or an already gpl'd one (ie bittorrent), and how do you integrate it?
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Jarjar
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Joined: 21 Jul 2002
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| Posted: Tue Apr 01, 2003 7:28 pm Post subject: |
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The problem with P2P would be (surprise!) that you have to download from other users. A _lot_ of your D/L's would be closed by people that thinks that uploading stinks etc.
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TheCoop
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| Posted: Tue Apr 01, 2003 7:39 pm Post subject: |
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it would be a voluntary thing, an ebuild to quickly set up a tiny rsync server to serve a couple of files, thats transferred over to the p2p server etc
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Ari Rahikkala
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| Posted: Tue Apr 01, 2003 7:46 pm Post subject: |
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Go on making P2P schemes for distributing Gentoo if you like, they're all the rage after all, but I won't use them before it's all cryptographically hashed and signed. Anybody who operates an rsync mirror of the Gentoo main server can already do whatever he/she wants to the Portage tree of many clients... trusting packages I download from a random host on the 'net is right out of the question.
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TheCoop
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| Posted: Tue Apr 01, 2003 7:49 pm Post subject: |
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ever thought of md5? The source file gets checked on your computer, and if it isnt the exact same file you can get directly off the program webbie itll have a completely different md5, which you can check
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