Gentoo Forums
Gentoo Forums
Gentoo Forums
Quick Search: in
Intel, AMD, Microsoft/Palladium & the TCPA
View unanswered posts
View posts from last 24 hours

Goto page 1, 2, 3, 4  Next  
Reply to topic    Gentoo Forums Forum Index Off the Wall
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
pjp
Administrator
Administrator


Joined: 16 Apr 2002
Posts: 17456

PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2002 10:57 pm    Post subject: Intel, AMD, Microsoft/Palladium & the TCPA Reply with quote

Will Intel users scurry... (previous thread title)
...faster than roaches do when lights are turned on?

Intel chip to include antipiracy features.

I'm buying some land and moving into a yurt if this %$!@ keeps up.
_________________
Slowly I turned. Step by step.


Last edited by pjp on Tue Sep 24, 2002 5:08 am; edited 2 times in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
rac
Bodhisattva
Bodhisattva


Joined: 30 May 2002
Posts: 6553
Location: Japanifornia

PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2002 11:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The good news is that it has to be more expensive to put this garbage in than to avoid doing so. With Winmodems, it was a win for the maker to use cheaper components in the hardware and fake it in software using drivers provided often only in closed-source format. The cost of production pressure is in the other direction this time, so other CPUs should, all other things being equal, be cheaper at the same performance point than these LaGrande chips.

The big problem would come if legislation requiring the use of such technology appears, or if precedent is set that possession of non-crippled hardware is illegal, at which point many of us will be buying yurts and setting up shop on abandoned aircraft carriers out in the North Sea. I remain hopeful that such proposed legislation can be avoided or defeated by framing the argument in terms of "who do you want to have the final say on how something that you purchased operates - you or some company that you have released from all liability in a EULA that you had no choice but to agree to in order to have the product function?" As I understand LaGrande and Palladium, they make Microsoft the superuser and you just a regular user, on your own computer.
_________________
For every higher wall, there is a taller ladder
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
klieber
Administrator
Administrator


Joined: 17 Apr 2002
Posts: 3657
Location: San Francisco, CA

PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2002 12:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm already an AMD user for the most part, and if Intel gets their way and their crap gets adopted, I'll be an AMD user for life.

As a counterpoint, however, remember Intel's wish to add a unique electronic serial number to all the PIII chips. There was such an uproar over that that Intel backed down (sort of) and allowed it to be turned off in the BIOS. Notice that nobody uses that technology for anything these days.

As long as consumers can vote with their wallets, I think we'll be OK. If, as rac stated, the gubment gets their sticky hands into things, then I think we're all screwed.

Kanuslupus, make sure you get the double-wide yurt, 'cause I'll be moving in with you. :)

--kurt
_________________
The problem with political jokes is that they get elected
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
rac
Bodhisattva
Bodhisattva


Joined: 30 May 2002
Posts: 6553
Location: Japanifornia

PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2002 10:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As is often the case, the lens of satire may improve vision.
_________________
For every higher wall, there is a taller ladder
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Carlos
Guru
Guru


Joined: 07 Aug 2002
Posts: 458
Location: Providence, RI

PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2002 1:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Isn't AMD's hammer going to ship with Hammer? Anyway, since both AMD and Intel are signed on with Palladium, I'm afraid that pretty soon there'll be no acceptable hardware on the market. Sure, consumers can vote with their wallets, but these same consumers are the ones who voted Microsoft into their current supremacy. Is Joe Consumer really going to care about how Windows 3000, not he, will be the one in control of his computer when it's the only operating system he'll have heard of, the only one that'll run his games and open the documents he creates at work?

Sure, there's OpenOffice and WineX(replace with your favorite office suite and emulator as you see fit), but even though I think any intelligent being can get those working if he really wants to, right now it takes effort - effort most people don't want to make. Much as I like Linux, games certainly were much easier to get to work under Windows. Actually, the OS I miss most is BeOS: it worked beautifully, and there was never much work to configure it or get it working. But I digress.

The cards are probably further stacked against us because of what happened a year ago, and how governments worldwide have taken the opportunity to crack down on dissidents and other undesired elements at the expense of free speech and all that great stuff. We might be approaching a watershed, one where civil rights and computing go to hell.

Think we can stop it before we have to run to the abandoned aircraft carriers? My take is that we need to educate consumers, and make the product better: sure, it's nice in Linux to be able to see how everything works, but others like to be as insulated from the inner workings of the machine as they can be.

Sorry about the length and melodrama... I just haven't had a chance to talk to people about this; it gets lonely when you're surrounded by Windows users.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Locke
n00b
n00b


Joined: 02 Aug 2002
Posts: 50
Location: Baton Rouge, LA, US

PostPosted: Sun Sep 15, 2002 5:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If the TCPA/Palladium crap is a hit, then I'm buying a PPC or even an old SPARCStation or DEC Alpha off of Ebay. Intel and AMD are signed on to the TCPA and Cyrix sucks... meaning no more PCs for me if it happens.
_________________
---BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK---
GH/MU d+ s+:+>+: a--- C++ UL+++>++++ P>++ L+++(++) E- W++(-) N+ o?
K+ w !O M-- !V PS+@ PE Y+ PGP t 5 X- R-@ tv- b+++ DI+ D G e>++++ h- r y
---END GEEK CODE BLOCK---
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
pjp
Administrator
Administrator


Joined: 16 Apr 2002
Posts: 17456

PostPosted: Sun Sep 15, 2002 5:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Locke wrote:
If the TCPA/Palladium crap is a hit, then I'm buying a PPC or even an old SPARCStation or DEC Alpha off of Ebay.
I don't trust Apple/PPC any farther than I can throw them. In other words, I'd not be surprised if Apple didn't do something similar.

Anyone have any info on AMD and tha Palladium thing? I found this from June.
Quote:
Since Palladium will reside on the hardware level, Microsoft has signed up Intel and Advanced Micro Devices (AMD) to make Palladium chips. Microsoft also has to convince software makers to buy into the Palladium architecture.
Quote:
But by integrating Palladium with its Windows operating system (OS), Microsoft is taking another strike at Linux users. Juarez won't rule out Palladium ever being available for alternative operating systems, but it won't be initially.
I wonder if this is part of MS's push to make open source illegal (via DRM laws). IF DRM laws require stuff like this, how could Open software comply?

I liked Sun hardware when I used it... I may have to rethink my dual-Opteron system I was planning on.
_________________
Slowly I turned. Step by step.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Locke
n00b
n00b


Joined: 02 Aug 2002
Posts: 50
Location: Baton Rouge, LA, US

PostPosted: Sun Sep 15, 2002 2:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hm. Just read that Motorola is a TCPA signatory as well. Don't they make the Mac/PPC processors?
_________________
---BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK---
GH/MU d+ s+:+>+: a--- C++ UL+++>++++ P>++ L+++(++) E- W++(-) N+ o?
K+ w !O M-- !V PS+@ PE Y+ PGP t 5 X- R-@ tv- b+++ DI+ D G e>++++ h- r y
---END GEEK CODE BLOCK---
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
pjp
Administrator
Administrator


Joined: 16 Apr 2002
Posts: 17456

PostPosted: Sun Sep 15, 2002 5:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Last I heard, both Motorola and IBM made PPC processors for Apple.
_________________
Slowly I turned. Step by step.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
pjp
Administrator
Administrator


Joined: 16 Apr 2002
Posts: 17456

PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2002 5:23 am    Post subject: AMD update Reply with quote

Danger, Will Robinson!

Update:

the inquirer wrote:
"There is nothing [in Hammer] that could actually prevent a user running unlicensed content," the representative from AMD said. MM

AMD's FORTHCOMING Opteron processor will support Microsoft's trusty "security" initiative, Palladium, reports reveal.


Why do I say 'Danger', you might ask? Because I don't believe this should be done at the processor level.

I may upgrade sooner than I thought; to the 333MHz FSB supporting AMD processor.

*sigh*

Renamed thread title.
_________________
Slowly I turned. Step by step.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
taskara
Advocate
Advocate


Joined: 10 Apr 2002
Posts: 3763
Location: Australia

PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2002 1:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

yesss.. well it's the same old story isn't it ?

Microsoft control the market, and what can companies like AMD do ?

If they don't support Microsoft's TCPA, then they are screwed.

I don't care if an AMD processor has Palladium support, so long as that doesn't stop me from using linux - it should only be active when using MS operating systems!

Maybe AMD will come out with TWO types of processors ? That's the kind of thing I would expect from AMD - innovation, and a way around it for ppl like us linux users.

HEY we can make a linux processor! ;) "linux inside"

Don't forget MS bloody well owns people in the US Government, man they could make it illegal to eat macas if they wanted to.

All I can say is that I HOPE linux is mega popular (in terms of market share) by the time Palladium comes around, and then we may see some changes to the way manufactorers view MS's TCPA.

I would love a company like AMD to turn around and say to MS "stick it!" but they can't afford to, and that's the said fact of the matter :(

I love my amd, I hope I don't ever have to change to something else..
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
pjp
Administrator
Administrator


Joined: 16 Apr 2002
Posts: 17456

PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2002 7:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

taskara wrote:
I don't care if an AMD processor has Palladium support, so long as that doesn't stop me from using linux - it should only be active when using MS operating systems!
My concern is where this leads. MS has (or had) some plans in the works to try and make open source software illegal because it couldn't conform to DRM technology. That is the gist of what I recall... it may have just been a journalist speculating.

I don't see any likelyhood that any CPU manufacturer would make 2 processors for the same market (one with TCPA support, one without). What I find very interesting, is the AMD assertion that the user will be the one to make the decision... what good is the feature, if the user decides? Seems to skirt around what MS is actually wanting, so why put it into your architecture? Even if MS Windows uses it, someone will be able to write a program to circumvent it.
Quote:
All I can say is that I HOPE linux is mega popular (in terms of market share) by the time Palladium comes around, and then we may see some changes to the way manufactorers view MS's TCPA.
Well, with the Opteron making its debut early 2003 (avail. in quantities Q2 '03), I'm not thinking Linux can gain that much popularity in 8 months.
Quote:
I love my amd, I hope I don't ever have to change to something else..
Especially considering there aren't any real alternatives. Apple? No, they are worse in this respect than MS IMO. Apple seems like a prime candidate for doing this kind of thing. Sun? Seems very expensive, and I'm not familiar with how well their 1GHz procs compare to AMD. PowerPC? Show me a system that isn't Apple.

*sigh*
_________________
Slowly I turned. Step by step.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
taskara
Advocate
Advocate


Joined: 10 Apr 2002
Posts: 3763
Location: Australia

PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2002 9:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pen and paper ?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
meyerm
Veteran
Veteran


Joined: 27 Jun 2002
Posts: 1311
Location: Munich / Germany

PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2002 9:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, I guess it's time for open source hardware...

OK, VHDL-plans are even available for some sparc-compatible processors (ESA [european NASA ;)] published the code for their whole LEON-processor under the GPL). So, all we need as a little fab. Hmm, who of you does have sth. similar at home so that we can start?

;)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
klieber
Administrator
Administrator


Joined: 17 Apr 2002
Posts: 3657
Location: San Francisco, CA

PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2002 11:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kanuslupus wrote:
Especially considering there aren't any real alternatives. Apple? No, they are worse in this respect than MS IMO.

Actually, Apple has a pretty decent track record when it comes to shoving DRM down users' throats (or rather, not shoving it down their throats)

They've spoken out against the use of copy protection on CDs (probably because it broke some iMacs :)) and Steve Jobs has also spoken out in favor of fair use when it comes to copying music for personal use.

Granted -- Apple has their own dark side. They're fanatically protective of their own IP, but when it comes to DRM, Apple has taken a middle of the road approach that places a great deal of trust in their customers.

--kurt
_________________
The problem with political jokes is that they get elected
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
squanto
Guru
Guru


Joined: 20 Apr 2002
Posts: 524
Location: Rochester, NY, USA

PostPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2002 12:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think these guys http://www.transmeta.com/ may start raking in the cash, unless their name is on this retarded anti-piracy stuff.
I like the crusoe, especially in laptops like the fujitsu one. I could go for 12 hours of batt life :)

I don't understand how open source can be illegal... That just doesn't make sense. Unless I really need a refresher on how any laws work, I thought it was something like "by the people, for the people"? Wouldn't that mean that atleast in the US that stuff made by the people could be used by the people?

I think MS should go to hell.... http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=%22Go+To+Hell%22&btnG=Google+Search[/url]
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
klieber
Administrator
Administrator


Joined: 17 Apr 2002
Posts: 3657
Location: San Francisco, CA

PostPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2002 1:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

squanto wrote:
I think these guys http://www.transmeta.com/ may start raking in the cash, unless their name is on this retarded anti-piracy stuff.

Transmeta makes decent stuff, but they definitely aren't powerhouses. I can already hear the complaints from the gamers....

squanto wrote:
Unless I really need a refresher on how any laws work, I thought it was something like "by the people, for the people"?

Correct, and if the people decide (actively or, as is more likely the case, passively) to let these laws become reality, then that is what we will all have to live by.

Corporate lobbying can get some laws passed, but at some point, the people get pissed off enough to get off their apathetic asses and do something about it. Sooner or later, we're all going to get enough of a collective slap in the face to where we decide that hey, maybe we ought to do something about all this.

Until then, we'll just have to let Mickey Mouse run the country.

--kurt
_________________
The problem with political jokes is that they get elected
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
squanto
Guru
Guru


Joined: 20 Apr 2002
Posts: 524
Location: Rochester, NY, USA

PostPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2002 1:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

klieber wrote:
Until then, we'll just have to let Mickey Mouse run the country.--kurt

CBDTPA anyone? What consumers was this going to protect?

I think lobbying should be abolished! :lol:
I think that every thing should be voted on by every single person in the US, then we could really see where the people stand. Oh yea, and I vote to make being "Microsoft" illegal.
Anyone else in onthat?

As for transmeta, well, even if they aren't the most kick in the pants processors, I would use one if they were cheap and didn't include stupid things like piracy "protection". Maybe a 4 way SMP Crusoe?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Tuxisuau
Apprentice
Apprentice


Joined: 04 May 2002
Posts: 213
Location: Catalunya (Europe)

PostPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2002 2:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There's no problem about TCPA enabled CPUs, only that you pay for a feature that you are not going to use. The thing is that I'm sure somebody (big multinationals) is going to make pressure to force DRM to be enabled, to force hardware vendors to make hardware that will only boot a DRM enabled OS. It can, of course, be Linux. But in binary format and after you paid for the certification of it. I mean: Bye bye Gentoo, bye bye compiling your source, bye bye control of your own computer: A DRM os MUST have backdoors to be DRM compliant, you know, the RIAA should be able to check if you have divx, the Through police must be able to check all your personal data, just to be sure you're not a terrorist or a potencial one, both situations will lead you directly to the Ministery of Love. (as in 1984)
_________________
IM me at tuxisuau@jabber.7a69ezine.org
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
pjp
Administrator
Administrator


Joined: 16 Apr 2002
Posts: 17456

PostPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2002 4:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

klieber wrote:
Actually, Apple has a pretty decent track record when it comes to shoving DRM down users' throats (or rather, not shoving it down their throats)
I knew someone would mention this, I was just too lazy to comment on it. I've read/heard about Apple's "stance" on the issue, but I can't escape the feeling that it is for their convenience. That is my main issue; they just seem more sneaky. Perhaps because MS doesn't/doesn't try to hide it, I become leery of others. I am very close to giving Apple hardware a try. If I do, I'm definately waiting for the new IBM chips to come out ('03 was it?).


Tuxisuau wrote:
There's no problem about TCPA enabled CPUs, only that you pay for a feature that you are not going to use. The thing is that I'm sure somebody (big multinationals) is going to make pressure to force DRM to be enabled, to force hardware vendors to make hardware that will only boot a DRM enabled OS.
That is my concern. That it exists and wastes CPU cycles/efficiency/something is annoying. That it exists and can then be forced, is my concern. But lets make it easier to vote without thinking.
_________________
Slowly I turned. Step by step.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
carambola5
Apprentice
Apprentice


Joined: 10 Jul 2002
Posts: 214
Location: Madtown, WI

PostPosted: Mon Sep 23, 2002 9:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

taskara wrote:
Maybe AMD will come out with TWO types of processors ? That's the kind of thing I would expect from AMD - innovation, and a way around it for ppl like us linux users.

You just don't get it. This Palladium crap is not a purely technological battlefield. Think politics. What is the major difference between the upcoming technologies of Intel and AMD? Oh, nothing... except THE ARCHITECTURE!!!

This is a war between AMD's x86-64 and Intel's IA-64. And Microsoft is the guy you want on your side (whether you like 'em or not). Either side is deeply entrenched in their own proprietary new 64-bit architecture and having Windows XP-64 (and descendents) OS to run natively is the holy grail of this war. And to win MS over, you need to implement Palladium.

If AMD comes out with 2 processors, one with Palladium and one without, all Intel has to do is make one Palladium-enabled chip and they've won. Game over. You get to have your non-Palladium chips for a while... until AMD gets put out of business.

Face it, the only way we get non-Palladium chips into the far future is if both AMD and Intel refuse to submit to Microsoft's demands... something that looks like will never happen. *hangs head in defeat* We're screwed.
_________________
Get Firefox!

Proper Web Development

I'm done at 999.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
meyerm
Veteran
Veteran


Joined: 27 Jun 2002
Posts: 1311
Location: Munich / Germany

PostPosted: Mon Sep 23, 2002 10:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

An nice link to a FAQ about TCPA. Interessting for us OpenSource-fans seems to be nr. 18 - speaking about the GPL.

I'm sorry, but this is in german (but I hope there are some german readers in this thread too). Perhaps babelfish can help (or another german reader with a better english than mine wants to translate it)? ;-)

The last question (nr. 25) summarizes it all very short:
Quote:
25.) A "thrustworthy computer" is finally one, which undermines my security?
Now you got it!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
pjp
Administrator
Administrator


Joined: 16 Apr 2002
Posts: 17456

PostPosted: Tue Sep 24, 2002 5:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

AMD muddies the waters

Update regarding "The Age" vs. "the inquierer" AMD attempts to "shoot the messenger" over Palladium.
_________________
Slowly I turned. Step by step.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Curious
Bodhisattva
Bodhisattva


Joined: 13 May 2002
Posts: 395
Location: Sydney, Australia

PostPosted: Tue Sep 24, 2002 5:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Age wrote:

"It's hard to talk about Palladium because its 3-4 years away."


Sigh, I guess that gives me three to four years to get up to 'Guru' status in my other hobbies.

:(

-- Curious, strapping on his pads and helmet and heading for the ramps.
_________________
Are you down with the Hawk?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
pjp
Administrator
Administrator


Joined: 16 Apr 2002
Posts: 17456

PostPosted: Tue Sep 24, 2002 6:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh yeah, I meant to comment on that. If Palladium is 3-4 years away, and that is the purpose AMD is adding this stuff to their chips, why are they doing it next year? I'm guessing the Opteron will look very differently after 4yrs.

*raises an eyebrow*

I am quickly starting to worry about AMD, if for no other reason than foot in mouth disease.
_________________
Slowly I turned. Step by step.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Reply to topic    Gentoo Forums Forum Index Off the Wall All times are GMT
Goto page 1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Page 1 of 4

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum