Gentoo Forums
Gentoo Forums
Gentoo Forums
Quick Search: in
Linus says: "Use kde"
View unanswered posts
View posts from last 24 hours

Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8  Next  
Reply to topic    Gentoo Forums Forum Index Off the Wall
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
linuxtuxhellsinki
l33t
l33t


Joined: 15 Nov 2004
Posts: 700
Location: Hellsinki

PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2005 11:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I prefer KDE :)

But I'm writing this from Fluxbox :D

& I've just installed first time Blackbox in my older ThinkPad (560) which had Windowlab before that :P


Isn't it the FREEDOM! of choice that everyone of us loves :?:

& one of my choice is not to use G :wink:
_________________
1st use 'Search' & lastly add [Solved] to
the subject of your first post in the thread.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
pjp
Administrator
Administrator


Joined: 16 Apr 2002
Posts: 18120

PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2005 11:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've used (or tried) nearly everything in portage. Having the freedom to choose doesn't make them suck any less.
_________________
Those who know what's best for us must rise and save us from ourselves.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
linuxtuxhellsinki
l33t
l33t


Joined: 15 Nov 2004
Posts: 700
Location: Hellsinki

PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2005 11:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Exactly 8)
_________________
1st use 'Search' & lastly add [Solved] to
the subject of your first post in the thread.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
shickapooka800
Guru
Guru


Joined: 05 Dec 2004
Posts: 304
Location: no

PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2005 11:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

linuxtuxhellsinki wrote:
I prefer KDE :)

But I'm writing this from Fluxbox :D

& I've just installed first time Blackbox in my older ThinkPad (560) which had Windowlab before that :P


Isn't it the FREEDOM! of choice that everyone of us loves :?:

& one of my choice is not to use G :wink:


goddamn bright colored text, it makes my eyes hurt.

and also, there some prety nice WM's not in portage that are worth playing with. (ergo more freedom)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
/dev/random
l33t
l33t


Joined: 26 Nov 2004
Posts: 704
Location: Austin, Texas, USA

PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2005 11:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

shickapooka800 wrote:

and also, there some prety nice WM's not in portage that are worth playing with. (ergo more freedom)

Ergo more disappointment for pjp.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
pjp
Administrator
Administrator


Joined: 16 Apr 2002
Posts: 18120

PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2005 11:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

/dev/random wrote:
shickapooka800 wrote:

and also, there some prety nice WM's not in portage that are worth playing with. (ergo more freedom)

Ergo more disappointment for pjp.
I've not made any ebuilds for complex programs, so it'd be a bit difficult. If I thought it looked worth trying, I'd give it a whirl.
_________________
Those who know what's best for us must rise and save us from ourselves.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Omega21
l33t
l33t


Joined: 14 Feb 2004
Posts: 788
Location: Canada (brrr. Its cold up here)

PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2005 12:39 am    Post subject: Re: Torvalds purportedly on Gnome being idiot-oriented Reply with quote

patson wrote:
http://mail.gnome.org/archives/usability/2005-December/msg00021.html

I have no way of knowing wether that post was actually made by Torvalds or not, but that kind of whining doesn't seem like him... I'll have to agree with the poster, though, Gnome has disabled or removed way too many features and configuration options in order to dumb the environment down enough for dead grannies to be able to use it - this is the primary reason why I stick with KDE. The question is, is dumbing down interfaces good or bad?

Anyway, discuss. :)


That looks like his email....
Anyways, Im happy to know Linus likes KDE. He obviously is very intelligent. :D
_________________
iMac G4 1GHz :: q6600 //2x 500GB//2GB RAM//8600GT//Gentoo :: MacBook Pro//2.53GHz
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
G2k
l33t
l33t


Joined: 06 Mar 2004
Posts: 672
Location: Rome, Italy

PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2005 8:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

if people stopped ranting over what colors KDE should have by default, how Gnome developers should structure their interfaces and how long it takes to emerge openoffice over how long an emerge openoffice-bin takes the world would be a better place. Seriously. The stuff is out there to give us choice. Stop complaining. Stop with all this "down with Ubuntu" crap or "Gnome is way better than KDE" kind of stuff and go make yourself useful for society. If you think you can do something better, do it without judging the hard work of others. If you can't, sit back and enjoy what others are trying to do for you.
If my message wasn't clear enough, here are some words of wisdom:
Quote:
"A very poor man, after a great deal of hard work, had managed to accumulate a whole sack of grain. He was proud of himself, and when he got home he strung the bag up with a rope from one of the rafters of his house to keep it safe from rats and thieves. He left it hanging there and settled down underneath it for the night as an added precaution. Lying there, his mind began to wander: 'If I can sell this grain off in small quantities, that will make the biggest profit. WIth that I can buy some more gain, and do the same again, and before too long I'll become rich, and I'll be someone to reckon with in the community. Plenty of girls will be after me. I'll marry a beautiful woman, and before too long we'll have a child...it will have to be a son...what on earth are we going to call him?' Looking round the room, his gaze fell upon the little window, through which he could see the moon rising. 'What a sign!' he thought. 'How auspicious! That's a really good name. I'll call him As Famous as the Moon...' Now while he had been carried away in his speculation, a rat had found its way up to the sack of grain and chewed through the rope. At that very moment the words As Famous as the Moon issued from his lips, the bag of grain dropped from the ceiling and killed him instantly. As Famous as the Moon, of course, was never born."

my two cents
_________________
Animula vagula blandula,
Hospes comesque corporis,
Quae nunc abibis in loca
Pallidula rigida nudula,
Nec ut soles dabis iocos...
- Imp. Caesar Hadrianus
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
acasto
Apprentice
Apprentice


Joined: 06 Feb 2004
Posts: 236
Location: Durka-Durka-Stan

PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2005 8:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

feld wrote:
as someone in the linux community said upon hearing this:

"if linus told me he hated my user interface i'd be glad. programmers dont ask UI people for their opinions, so why is one letter from linus, a programmer, making 40 UI people shake in their boots? people in the linux community need to get a f'n spine and tell him off. he doesnt design UI's for a reason."



now its not word for word, but its the gist of it, and i pretty much agree.


But if it led to Linus just saying "F*ck it!!" and taking up gardening... that would suck.

I can just imagine someone in the community jumping into tell him off... Leeerrrrooooyyyyy JEENNNKIINNS
_________________
Leerrroooooyyyyyyyy JENKINS!!!!1111...................

"You know the Nazi's had pieces of flare.. that they made the Jews wear."
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
G2k
l33t
l33t


Joined: 06 Mar 2004
Posts: 672
Location: Rome, Italy

PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2005 8:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

acasto wrote:
But if it led to Linus just saying "F*ck it!!" and taking up gardening... that would suck.
lol
good one
_________________
Animula vagula blandula,
Hospes comesque corporis,
Quae nunc abibis in loca
Pallidula rigida nudula,
Nec ut soles dabis iocos...
- Imp. Caesar Hadrianus
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
georwell
Guru
Guru


Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 430
Location: Uppsala, Sweden

PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2005 8:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have yet to see anyone refute his basic point. That the Gnome print dialog is in need of some drastic attention. (Enterprise, my ass) Linus has never been coy about telling it how it is, and in open source you never should be. If this upsets some people so be it. It doesn't change his initial point. He isn't some damn politician that has to placate the mass of Gnome worshippers.

He made some great points about useability, that I think reflects the 80/20 myth. (Which Gnome seems to be following) Gnome didn't work for him, he tried to find out why, he was told "Users Don't need that feature" , to which he said "The hell with that I am moving to a competitor." Seems perfectly reasonable to me. Sounds like my last conversation I had will Dell a few years ago.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Muso
Veteran
Veteran


Joined: 22 Oct 2002
Posts: 1000
Location: The Holy city of Honolulu

PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2005 9:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

georwell wrote:
I have yet to see anyone refute his basic point. That the Gnome print dialog is in need of some drastic attention. (Enterprise, my ass) Linus has never been coy about telling it how it is, and in open source you never should be. If this upsets some people so be it. It doesn't change his initial point. He isn't some damn politician that has to placate the mass of Gnome worshippers.

So well said, I need to say no more.

btw, Uppsala DNA is smart :P
_________________
"You can lead a horticulture but you can't make her think" ~ Dorothy Parker
"It's not a big truck. It's a series of tubes." ~ Senator Ted Stevens describing the Internet
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Shadow Skill
Veteran
Veteran


Joined: 04 Dec 2004
Posts: 1023

PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2005 9:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
if people stopped ranting over what colors KDE should have by default, how Gnome developers should structure their interfaces and how long it takes to emerge openoffice over how long an emerge openoffice-bin takes the world would be a better place. Seriously. The stuff is out there to give us choice. Stop complaining. Stop with all this "down with Ubuntu" crap or "Gnome is way better than KDE" kind of stuff and go make yourself useful for society. If you think you can do something better, do it without judging the hard work of others. If you can't, sit back and enjoy what others are trying to do for you.
I hate to tell you this but you can't have a product [Yes Gnome and KDE are products, no it doesn't matter that they are free.] and then expect that no one should express thier opinion of the product. You can put a stick up your rear and tell other people to make themsleves "useful" or you can accept the fact that people are going to have an opinion and some will probably express it and the work of others is always going to be judged because someone else other than the creator is going to be using it. Maybe if both camps decided to listen to what people are saying there would be fewer of these threads because more people would be happy with the tools provided. This "Take it and like it." bull has to stop, you want people to simply not say anything leaving developers free to pat themselves on the back talking about how great they are [read all the tools that swear they beat dependency hell, even though dependency hell is more complicated than just making sure the dependency graphs come out right.] even if thier tools are not very good at all. You think we need 10000 DE's file managers etc? There really is a limit to the benefits of diversity and people need to wake up to this reality. Its better to have ten or so high quality applications than it is to have a thousand crappy ones, so that you need to use three or four applications in the same category to get various tasks done. Personally I think both Gnome and KDE developers have made some very stupid decisions for thier respective programs [OMG I actually have an opinion *GASP*] I am wondering what the hell the Gnome devs are thinking with Nautilus and I am still trying to figure out who told the KDE devs that thier screwed up preferences menu for Konqueror was in any way acceptable.

I don't want to have three or four DE's/WM's installed because half my applications that I use end up sucking in the Gnome desktop while the other half sucks in KDE because some people think its cool to build thier DE's like one gaint app and then pretend they are not really a monolithic application given thier operating parameters, when I really only use E17 and Openbox. I don't want filemanagers that start sucking as soon as I need to perform some relatively complex move/copy operations so that I must use an entirely different program with a totally different paradigm to perform those actions and then switch back to my "regular" file manager because the dual pane paradigm tends to suck for other stuff that I do with my file manager. Why is it that the more traditional paradigm can't coexist with a dual pane or even other paradigms for file management in the same program? Why is it that simple has to mean featureless, and why is it that feature rich has to mean ugly/bad ui desgn? These are type of things that people ask Gnome and KDE developers, these are the things that the people actually using these products have opinions about and there is nothing wrong with that.
_________________
Ware wa mutekinari.
Wa ga kage waza ni kanau mono nashi.
Wa ga ichigeki wa mutekinari.

"First there was nothing, so the lord gave us light. There was still nothing, but at least you could see it."
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Shadow Skill
Veteran
Veteran


Joined: 04 Dec 2004
Posts: 1023

PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2005 9:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
have yet to see anyone refute his basic point. That the Gnome print dialog is in need of some drastic attention. (Enterprise, my ass) Linus has never been coy about telling it how it is, and in open source you never should be. If this upsets some people so be it. It doesn't change his initial point. He isn't some damn politician that has to placate the mass of Gnome worshippers.
what is wrong with the Gnome print dialogue? I haven't used a printer with Linux in almost a year so I don't know much about it.
_________________
Ware wa mutekinari.
Wa ga kage waza ni kanau mono nashi.
Wa ga ichigeki wa mutekinari.

"First there was nothing, so the lord gave us light. There was still nothing, but at least you could see it."
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Gergan Penkov
Veteran
Veteran


Joined: 17 Jul 2004
Posts: 1464
Location: das kleinste Kuhdorf Deutschlands :)

PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2005 9:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, I use gnome, but I don't like the path taken from the gnome-developers. What I mean is that they are promoting the shitty crap mono, for example. Why use sth, which is not partially usable as muine and needs 1001 dependancies and doesn't work correctly, if there is quod libet for example. the other side is that their gtk/glib model is crappy, that's why they need bindings to lure developers...
Now it is their problem that they could not design it right, that's why I'm really waiting for e17-team and rasterman to finish their masterpiece and then it will be bye bye gnome.
And no I will not use kde, I've used it in the gtk1-times, then it looked better than its rival, but now ....
_________________
"I knew when an angel whispered into my ear,
You gotta get him away, yeah
Hey little bitch!
Be glad you finally walked away or you may have not lived another day."
Godsmack
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
StringCheesian
l33t
l33t


Joined: 21 Oct 2003
Posts: 887

PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2005 12:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hoschi wrote:
Maybe I should try E17 with Thurna (Nice GTK2-Filemanager) again :lol:

Can you give a link please? Google, Gentoo Forums search, and gentoo-portage.com search show nothing for "thurna".
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
ecatmur
Advocate
Advocate


Joined: 20 Oct 2003
Posts: 3595
Location: Edinburgh

PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2005 1:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gergan Penkov wrote:
Well, I use gnome, but I don't like the path taken from the gnome-developers. What I mean is that they are promoting the shitty crap mono, for example. Why use sth, which is not partially usable as muine and needs 1001 dependancies and doesn't work correctly, if there is quod libet for example. the other side is that their gtk/glib model is crappy, that's why they need bindings to lure developers...


What's wrong wth GTK+/GLib?

Quod libet looks interesting though, trying it out now. The interface looks fairly ugly in the screenshots, but maybe that's just the theme being used...
_________________
No more cruft
dep: Revdeps that work
Using command-line ACCEPT_KEYWORDS?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Evangelion
Veteran
Veteran


Joined: 31 May 2002
Posts: 1087
Location: Helsinki, Finland

PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2005 1:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bigun89 wrote:
^^^ Aye

What the developer of the kernel things about UI means a hill of beans to a user's preference.


Like it or not, Linus is an user as well. Just because he happens to be a kernel-developer, doesn't mean that he's not a GUI-user as well.

After following this storm in a teacup for a while, it seems to me that there is a certain line of thinking going on:

When Joe Sixpack complains about something in GNOME, his opinion can be ignored, because he doesn't get the "grand plan" the developers have for GNOME. Yes, many people have complained that GNOME-devs don't listen to users. He doesn't understand that the changes being made are "for his own good".

But, on the other hand: When high-profile power-user (like Linus Torvalds) makes the same comments about GNOME, he can be ignored as well because "He's not a typical user".

So, no matter which end of the spectrum you are, you can be ignored. I don't think it's beneficial for any project to ignore the users, regardless that are they power-users or newbies. Open-source projects should listen to what the people are saying, even if they say something you disagree with! I have seen GNOME-developers write blogs which basically say "Linus is irrelevant". Like it or not, he's not. If you think he's irrelevant, then your other users are irrelevant as well. Is that the message you want to tell others?

What the GNOME-guys CAN'T do is to only hear what they want to hear, and if someone says something the disagree with, they can just say "well, he's irrelevant, so there!". What makes Linus irrelevant? the fact that he's not a trained UI-expert? Most people aren't, are they therefore denied the possibility to complain about something in GNOME? I'm not a car-expert, but I can still complain that my car consumes too much fuel. I'm not a musician, but I can still complain if I hear crappy music. I don't know how to make movies, but I can still complain when I see a crappy movie. I'm no UI-expert, but I can complain when I see something dumb in GNOME or KDE.... right?

All that said: I use KDE. And if someone decides to use GNOME, more power to him! I have no inclination to force my preferences to others.
_________________
My tech-blog | My other blog
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Evangelion
Veteran
Veteran


Joined: 31 May 2002
Posts: 1087
Location: Helsinki, Finland

PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2005 1:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
It's obviously meant to be funny... nobody sane would recommend KDE.


He DOES use KDE. He has submitted bug-reports to KDE in the past.
_________________
My tech-blog | My other blog
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Evangelion
Veteran
Veteran


Joined: 31 May 2002
Posts: 1087
Location: Helsinki, Finland

PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2005 1:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

shickapooka800 wrote:
what i don't understand is why he doesnt attack the biggest bloat of them all, X11. Every little thing, from that precious xterm to the fugly xclock use too many resources for what they do, or should be doing. I would think from a programmers standpoint, this would be more his territory.


Since people are running X on PDA's, I REALLY fail to see the basis of your "X is bloated"-comment....
_________________
My tech-blog | My other blog
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
radoslawc
Tux's lil' helper
Tux's lil' helper


Joined: 08 Jun 2005
Posts: 112
Location: POLAND

PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2005 1:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

L.T. wrote
Quote:
never mind that it's a million times slower


Wasn't that about KDE? What is his problem? It's fun bashing other people work instead of helping or giving constructive critics. If you don't like something, thats ok, but if you don't appreciate someone's hard work thats simply not fair. I personally hate KDE because it's laggy and takes a lot of resouces, same gnome (but still lighter), xfce was fine (not xfce4), *box team was too simple, sooo I always get back to FVWM.

BUT I aprecciate hard work of KDE developers wchich made great desktop for (almost) every user, gnome team, well I used gnome (sometimes) since Red Hat 5.2 epoch, and I like it's look, clarity etc. and this whole CORBA stuff, *box is somewhat beatyfull with it's simpliness, just that, works fast does what it should be doing etc.

On the other side Linus sux, Linux sux, Unix sux (M. de Icaza), ok everything sux, but what sux even more is X11! I mean, I know this whole "ooooo unix! server! blah blah" but really why it takes so much resources, so much diskspace and works soooo slow! look at syllabe os, or QNX and compare their GUI speed with X11 + KDE --- if putting transparent bars all over and manga girls wallpaper on desktop is the only thing besides listening mp3 nad browsing internet, than X + DE really rocks (is anyone using X server actually as server? this makes no sense nowdays).

Why is nobody bashing X heh, but only default colors, setups etc of DE's? or even worse GNU/Linux distributions? System is as good as it's administrator (doesnt apply to SuSE which is pile of shit, luckily some guys are working on speeding it up (turbo suse, power suse don't remember really)).

Quote:
shitty crap mono
true true -- it's even more bloatwarish than java, sux a lot BUT it can be usefull, and evil microsoft is behind this right, but if they develop something and it's possible to use that (for free), thats fine, could be usefull (for rapid bloatware development for example ;)).

I encourage everyone to use CLI.
_________________
“You know all those extra lines of code that we sometimes refer to as bloatware. It's actually very important and efficient stuff. There is some very substantial functionality built into the operating system.” Laura DiDio
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Evangelion
Veteran
Veteran


Joined: 31 May 2002
Posts: 1087
Location: Helsinki, Finland

PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2005 2:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

radoslawc wrote:
L.T. wrote
Quote:
never mind that it's a million times slower


Wasn't that about KDE?


Uh, no. The entire comment is here

Quote:
Same with the file dialog. Apparently it's too "confusing" to let users
just type the filename. So gnome forces you to do the icon selection
thing, never mind that it's a million times slower.


He said that icon-selection is "million times slower" than simply typing the filename.

Quote:
Why is nobody bashing X


Because anyone who bashes X doesn't know what he's talking about. X is not slow or bloated. And yes, people ARE using it as a server, all the time. Last time I used it as a server was yesterday.
_________________
My tech-blog | My other blog
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
PieterB
Apprentice
Apprentice


Joined: 19 Jan 2004
Posts: 158
Location: Aalter, Belgium

PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2005 2:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gergan Penkov wrote:
What I mean is that they are promoting the shitty crap mono, for example.


What's wrong with mono? Microsoft has invented a very good platform with .NET, but their OS is just crap. If they have one good product it's .NET (and Visual Studio...)
_________________
LinuxUser: #310384
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
radoslawc
Tux's lil' helper
Tux's lil' helper


Joined: 08 Jun 2005
Posts: 112
Location: POLAND

PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2005 2:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Evangelion wrote:
radoslawc wrote:
...


Uh, no. The entire comment is here

Quote:
...


He said that icon-selection is "million times slower" than simply typing the filename.

Quote:
Why is nobody bashing X


Because anyone who bashes X doesn't know what he's talking about. X is not slow or bloated. And yes, people ARE using it as a server, all the time. Last time I used it as a server was yesterday.


1) I was trying to be sarcastic ... you know?
2) Ever saw Photon microGUI in QNX? for some reason they dropped Xfree, although someone ported it again. Try this whole system takes as much space as two Xorg instalations (luckily modullar one is on it's way).
Also have look at this. I don't see much visual difference for most common desktop tasks and it fits floppy!

BTW. Just curious
Quote:
Last time I used it as a server was yesterday.
in what purpose? Using one of "monster computers" on university (Abaqus, VASP, Maple and stuff)?

chill out :)
_________________
“You know all those extra lines of code that we sometimes refer to as bloatware. It's actually very important and efficient stuff. There is some very substantial functionality built into the operating system.” Laura DiDio
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
radoslawc
Tux's lil' helper
Tux's lil' helper


Joined: 08 Jun 2005
Posts: 112
Location: POLAND

PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2005 2:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

PieterB wrote:
Gergan Penkov wrote:
What I mean is that they are promoting the shitty crap mono, for example.


What's wrong with mono? Microsoft has invented a very good platform with .NET, but their OS is just crap. If they have one good product it's .NET (and Visual Studio...)


they are the richest software company in the world for g sake, they must make something usefull. Anything. VC is hmmm, wizardish, although their compiler is IMHO the best and fastest for windows.

As for .NET as good platform --- ever saw ATI drivers with this car demo inside? and how much space it takes and how its sloooow. Either Ati don't have "hand" for software or its .NOT that ....
_________________
“You know all those extra lines of code that we sometimes refer to as bloatware. It's actually very important and efficient stuff. There is some very substantial functionality built into the operating system.” Laura DiDio
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Reply to topic    Gentoo Forums Forum Index Off the Wall All times are GMT
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8  Next
Page 4 of 8

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum