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what's with all the "linux will die" bs
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neuron
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2002 6:44 pm    Post subject: what's with all the "linux will die" bs Reply with quote

I'v seen threads like "linux won't survive" and linux will loose support a shitload of places now, wtf??

Linux is getting better and better support for games, now that's a BIG % of the users wanting it, Wine and WineX is getting better, more and more games comes with native support (quite a lot are planned).

Linux won't survive becouse people don't make money on it...... ummm, people didn't make money on it before either, and it has gotten this far, why the HELL would it stop?!?

Big companies such as IBM are putting serius $$.

This newsflash for example (yes it is true).

"IBM and the German govornement are getting together to implent Linux as the govornment's computing platform of choice".


It spreads, that means better support and more stuff, the linux world is just growing and getting better faster and faster, no reason why it should stop :)
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klieber
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2002 7:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I haven't seen any reports from credible sources saying linux, as a whole, will die. I think anyone who says this is uninformed at best.

I have seen credible reports saying that linux will not make it on the desktop, and will instead be primarily a server and embedded device OS. Personally, I agree with them, to an extent. Linux will not succeed on the desktop until it becomes as easy to use as Windows and Mac. While it's come a long ways, it also has a great deal more ground to cover until it becomes a reality. RedHat and Mandrake are the closest. Gentoo isn't even in the race. (nor does it pretend to be) Plus, you have the problem of the MS Office monopoly. Regardless of your personal feelings about Office, it is the de facto standard in business environments. Star/OpenOffice have made some inroads into Office file-format compatibility, but only until Microsoft tweaks the format again. (and, with over 50% of their profits coming from Office, if you don't think they're going to jealously defend their turf, you're insane.)

OTOH, Linux on the server is a definite reality. LAMP has a huge installed base, and linux on the server is gaining major traction from governments, corporations and even hobbyists. You reference IBM's investment in linux -- a good portion of that investment (a vast majority, I believe) goes towards server-related stuff -- linux on big iron, linux clustering, linux enterprise solutions, etc. Very little goes to linux on the desktop.

One of the last hurdles that linux on the server needs to clear is in enterprise support. Major corporations simply will not (and, quite frankly, should not) purchase an OS without any sort of formalized support offering behind it. It used to be that there was no major company offering enterprise support for linux-related stuff. Nowadays, RedHat and IBM are stepping up (and earning some nice profits, as a result)

Anyway, some misc. ramblings on the subject.

--kurt
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neuron
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2002 10:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

linux has progressed a LOT in the desktop area lately, and a few big package deal sellers are offering linux distro's instead of windows, which is great imho, people who are a bit green and got a choice between paying 200$ for windows, and just bought a new machine might give linux a try.

Yes there is a lot to be done, defenatly, but it's progressing, and I truly belive that linux will gain more and more popularity in the desktop area, like it has this far.


also, could a mod please move this to "All Things Gentoo", there's traffic in there ;)
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klieber
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2002 11:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

neuron wrote:
also, could a mod please move this to "All Things Gentoo", there's traffic in there ;)


All Things Gentoo is designed for support-type questions -- not general discussions about opinions, etc.

There's been discussion about creating a forum just for these types of posts -- feel free to post a request in Forums if you'd like to see this.

--kurt
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neuron
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2002 11:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nha, that'd be overkill, maybe moving general linux a bit higher up and making it clear that all things gentoo is for support questions would be a good idea though.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2002 1:20 pm    Post subject: Not dead Reply with quote

Thabu picked up on similar message and posted under Off the Wall forum.
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ASCI Blue
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2002 6:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whether linux ever hits the desktop is up to two things.

1. Government use. If the governments start using it everyone else will to remain compatable.

2. How many more times will MS shoot themselves (itself?) in the foot. If they keep up what they're doing corps won't want to pay for a subscription OS and upgrades every couple years.

To me it just seems like it's a matter of time before the 900 lb gorilla falls on it's face.
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morgan
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 24, 2002 12:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

klieber wrote:
I have seen credible reports saying that linux will not make it on the desktop, and will instead be primarily a server and embedded device OS. Personally, I agree with them, to an extent. Linux will not succeed on the desktop until it becomes as easy to use as Windows and Mac. While it's come a long ways, it also has a great deal more ground to cover until it becomes a reality.


Its completely possible for Linux to succeed on the desktop. This may be wishful thinking, but here's my possible scenario:

One of the many goals of the PC industry has to been to get more newbies. The PC industry has done all sorts of market research on this, and the best they can come up with that computers are only in 50% of households is that the things are too darned expensive.

In the last few years there has been a drive to lower costs. Some of this has caused a shift to embedded devices and 'thin clients.' I think there is still room for the general purpose computer, but I see it in the average household as more of a central control for all the embedded devices. Equally important, the general purpose computer will do word processing and publishing, e-mail, and Web browsing, applications that do not translate well to embedded devices.

Cost is a big factor. If you have a multiuser, mutlitasking operating system, and most importantly free operating system in that PC, A) its free from the Microsoft tax, and B) it can be used by more than one individual simultaneously via thin clients....perhaps Java-based, or VNC-based, whatever. This allows Missy and Junior Six Pack to have their own 'computers', but Ma and Pa Joe Six Pack can still keep tabs on them.

Wal-mart is shipping PCs with Linux pre-installed. Not just Lindows, but most recently they added PCs with a regular LInux Distro (Red Hat I think). This is one of the first steps.

Combine on the corporate front the fact that many governments are moving to Linux on the desktop. Any company that does business with governments will have to have at least a few PCs with OpenOffice to stay compatible, and possibly even some Linux boxes as well. A lot of companies do business with corporations...

I dunno...it sounds like a slippery slope I'm on already. Maybe someone else has some other things to point out that I'm missing. Can you see where I'm going with this?
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neuron
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 24, 2002 1:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="morgan"]
klieber wrote:
Wal-mart is shipping PCs with Linux pre-installed. Not just Lindows, but most recently they added PCs with a regular LInux Distro (Red Hat I think). This is one of the first steps.


a friend of mine had a very good quote about walmart selling comp's with linux "so let me get this straight, I can buy a computer from wallmart and be l33t?" ;)
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pjp
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 24, 2002 4:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Spell it with me now...


T R O L L


:D
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 25, 2002 12:58 pm    Post subject: Re: what's with all the "linux will die" bs Reply with quote

neuron wrote:
Linux won't survive becouse people don't make money on it...... ummm, people didn't make money on it before either, and it has gotten this far, why the HELL would it stop?!?

http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/users/rja14/tcpa-faq.html
and
http://www.cypherpunks.to/TCPA_DEFCON_10.pdf
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 26, 2002 12:38 am    Post subject: Re: what's with all the "linux will die" bs Reply with quote

dunbar wrote:
neuron wrote:
Linux won't survive becouse people don't make money on it...... ummm, people didn't make money on it before either, and it has gotten this far, why the HELL would it stop?!?

http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/users/rja14/tcpa-faq.html
and
http://www.cypherpunks.to/TCPA_DEFCON_10.pdf


mmm thats definitly a worry , definitly a case of renting a "service" rather than owning a os ......a monitored service at that ...
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 26, 2002 1:04 am    Post subject: Re: what's with all the "linux will die" bs Reply with quote

dunbar wrote:
neuron wrote:
Linux won't survive becouse people don't make money on it...... ummm, people didn't make money on it before either, and it has gotten this far, why the HELL would it stop?!?

http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/users/rja14/tcpa-faq.html
and
http://www.cypherpunks.to/TCPA_DEFCON_10.pdf


www.amd.com
www.motorola.com
www.ibm.com
www.sun.com

Fuck intel, who needs them.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 26, 2002 1:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

rekon I just got my new shiny "shite inside" sticker for my new case ...pity I cant afford a new mobo and AMD processor as well ........

dont forget VIAc3 :D
and www.transmeta.com

Cheers
Dale
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 26, 2002 1:15 am    Post subject: Re: what's with all the "linux will die" bs Reply with quote

gsfgf wrote:

www.amd.com
www.motorola.com
www.ibm.com
www.sun.com

Fuck intel, who needs them.


With respect, I think you're missing the point. I'm not going to get drawn into a long debate about this, so I'll quickly make my point and go back to helping people.

Widespread adoption of DRM OS technology would split the internet, our virtual commons, into a two class society - DRM haves, and DRM have-nots. Assuming I can ( and want to ) run a TCPA / Palladium compliant Linux system ( and this is not unlikely to exist ) As soon as I recompile or patch my kernel, it will need resigning. Something I cannot afford to do on a regular ( or any ) basis.

Thats fine. I can set TCPA off in the bios ( as mandated by the Palladium standard ), and run my kernel and all my other software unsigned. But what happens when some DRM enabled Windows Longhorn user tries to access my webserver? Woah, no chance. What happens when I try to connect to a TCPA identity secured IRC server? Again, no chance. DRM is going to make user identity verification so easy, I can see thousands of asp developers leaping at the chance to add identity based 'richness' to their websites... incidently closing the door on us.


The problem is that if you want to interact with the DRM-Haves, you yourself have to be 'in the club' - and that means expensive and resource intensive audits and key signings everytime I change software and recompile it.

I think you can see what this spells out for the GPL right of recompilation and modification.

Amazingly, I am not as anti-this as you might think, because I am an elitist son-of-a-beyotch who wants to see the internet return to the good old days when it was full of technically clueful people. ;-) If DRM bifurcates the internet down the middle into Windows Longhorn users and others, perhaps this will be a blessing in disguise...

Right up until your local ISP demands TCPA trusted platforms to sign in... *sigh* - then we're going to have to all start moving to globally chained WiFi.

-- Curious.
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pjp
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 26, 2002 1:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You may want to continue the TCPA/Palladium discussion here.

That thread mentions that AMD is signed up for the TCPA. I'm guessing others won't be far behind.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 26, 2002 2:12 am    Post subject: Re: what's with all the "linux will die" bs Reply with quote

ok the biggest problem I can see with this sort of thing produced, is the potential to kill alot of soft/hardware manufacturers, ie if the makers of autocad sign up and Archicad dont , why would any business person want tio waste time rebooting because he cant connect to the net via his ip using archicad because he has to disable support in the bios to run "unsigned" sofware.
The same could apply with hardware .
Not to mention what happened to the right to run the software you wanted , pontentially with this kind of product control , you could end up getting told to use program x for graphics , program y for the net etc etc etc .....
I know this view is a bit far fetched but the potential exists ....
If your a Linux user only I would be rather concerned...

Not to mention for it to work properly every user would have to have a perminate net connection ....there fore does that mean you have to have an adsl etc connection to use your pc ....if you read through the article alot of the system would have to be controlled remotely via a network connection of some description.....

just my 2 cents

Cheers
Dale.
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