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dmbtech
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2005 8:42 pm    Post subject: What exactly happened to stage 1? And bootstrapping? Reply with quote

I havn't been here in a while, and i can't really find the threads which tell me what happened. What happened to the normal stage 1 tarball that we'd bootstrap? The guide says it isn't supported anymore. Can we still bootstrap? Is there a way i can boostrap and have it build gcc 3.4.x? I prefer to start from stage one, and not have a completely built system already, and i personally find it kind of stupid if they got rid of it.
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anello
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2005 9:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/handbook/index.xml#doc_chap4
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warrens
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2005 10:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This bites the big one!! Why drop support for stage 1?? A stage 1 install is still the best way to get Gentoo installed exactly how I want it.
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dmbtech
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2005 11:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As much as I love gentoo, if they did drop stage 1 support and bootstrapping, i believe there is a need to fork gentoo. The original intention was so that is was custimizable, optimizable and more, which we can't do with starting with a stage 3 tarball.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 12, 2005 3:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just to make it clear, it is still possible to do stage 1 installs. The extra instructions are in the Gentoo FAQ, with the link to it above. The stage 1/2 support that is dropped is documentation. I don't know why it was dropped, as these instructions were the simplest in the installation. I too believe that this goes against the "user's choice" philosophy of Gentoo. Still, we can still do our stage ones. I am doing a custom GCC 3.4.4 stage one install as I write this.
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dmbtech
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 12, 2005 3:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

But the way it sounds, it looks like for now they have it, but eventually they'll get rid of it, i believe there deprecating it. If they do get rid of it, it destros the're choice philosophy.
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warrens
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 12, 2005 3:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As I write this I am doing a Stage 1 install on my server, but having to jump out of the Gentoo Handbook and look for the Stage 1 instructions in the FAQ was not something I like to do. I will not do a Stage 3 install again after having to failed attempts in the last year. I have had less problems and a better setup after I was done using Stage 1. I do not want somebodyelse deciding how my base system is installed, if I wanted that I would be still using Mandriva. I have a partition on by second hdd in my main computer that I play with the other distros, but there is not a single one out there that can hold a candle to my Stage 1 builds in regards to speed and stability. Put Stage 1 and Stage 2 support back into the Handbook, please!!!!
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 12, 2005 4:19 am    Post subject: Who needs stage1? Reply with quote

Honestly I think depreciating support for stage 1/2 is pretty smart. It's actually much smarter just to start at a stage3 (assuming you're not making a embedded distro) that way you have an 'up and running' system, then just emerge -e world. Did I miss something?

:twisted: avuton :twisted:
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 12, 2005 4:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

See this sticky thread Sticky: "you need Perl 5" error [SOLVED] as to why I think Gentoo migrated to a stage 3 insrtall. It also could simjply be that it was easier to document just one approch that had become popular and more reliable during the first 6 months of 2005.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 12, 2005 4:38 am    Post subject: Re: Who needs stage1? Reply with quote

Avuton Olrich wrote:
Did I miss something?
I think not.
I've only done 1 install, and it was a stage 3 - then I set my flags and emerged -e, then went to do X plus all the rest.
On my very first install.
Tell me what a stage1 would have bought me.

Even Bob p used a stage 3 for his "Stage 1 on 3 with NPTL" souped-up system. Wonder what that says ....
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 12, 2005 10:19 am    Post subject: handbook Reply with quote

I just wondered... does anyone have a spare old 2005.1 handbook which describes the stage 1/2 installation? I'd really like to have it, need it for study purposes etc.

Hope someone can help!
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 12, 2005 11:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I did a few Stage 1/2 installs and they have all produced lovely, fast, reliable machines. Fortunately I have printouts of the handbook, but I noticed already that stage 1 tarballs are disappearing.
What matters most - can we still set USE flags before installing? Can we still custom-build the kernel? bootstrapping or not, in my view, doesn't make the difference, but these items do.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 12, 2005 11:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This sucks! WHO has done this nonsense?

Please return at least stage2...
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 12, 2005 11:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would have guessed that this is what I'm saying.
I love Gentoo, although it takes TTIIMMEE to install - but the result is worth it.
Stage 3 only, and I'd better stay with SuSE...
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 12, 2005 1:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So glad that I found this thread..... I'm right in the middle of a build. I have completed stage 1 and am towards the end of stage 2. I had to shut down the machine that I was using to view the installation instructions. When I came back, I couldn't find the stage 2 instructions! I thought that I was going crazy..... Bad timing , I guess. But it's unfortunate that it will no longer be supported.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 12, 2005 4:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

you know, I think that the recommendation to have people install from Stage 3 tarballs is actually a GOOD idea. there's a HUGE misconception among less-experienced users about what a Stage 1 install actually does for you.

yes, a Stage 1 install is necessary if you're planning on bootstrapping for an architecture for which no Stage 3 tarball is available. but if a suitable architecture-specific Stage 3 tarball *IS* available for your system, there's no logical reason to perform a Stage 1 install. and as far as a Stage 2 install goes, there's never been a compelling argument for performing them.

if you search the forums, you'll find PLENTY of threads where this topic has already been discussed in detail by developers and seasoned Gentoo experts. both sides of the argument have been discussed in detail, and there's lots of good information in them that explains the logic behind the current official recommendations.

i have to admit, i'm kind of surprised to read this post and see that installing from a Stage 3 tarball has become an official recommendation, to the exclusion of supporting Stage 1 and 2. although that's been my opinion for quite some time (I agree with the original idea put forth by @rac on this), i had never imagined that Gentoo would make this a de-facto standard. when did this happen???

IMHO if Gentoo is going to take that stance, then it would be a good idea to provide suitable Stage 3 tarballs for all of the supported arches. right now, Gentoo offers Stage 3 tarballs for x86, i686, P3, P4 and XP, but no Stage 3 tarballs are offered for 486, Pentium, Pentium-MMX, Pentium2 or Pentium-M. If the Stage 1 install goes by the wayside, maybe it would be a good idea to add a few arch-specific Stage 3 tarballs to the mirrors to fill-in the gaps.

just a thoguht...
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 12, 2005 4:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

warrens wrote:
...
I do not want somebodyelse deciding how my base system is installed, if I wanted that I would be still using Mandriva. ...


that's so obtuse that its funny. i'm not trying to make fun of your post, but you were saying that in an effort to inject levity into the thread, right? i mean you intended for that to be comical, didn't you?

With a standard stage 3 install you're given a functional toolkit and base system, and then you're turned loose to build the system of your dreams. with mandriva, you have NO choice. Comparing Gentoo Stage 3 to Mandriva is so nonsensical that it must have been a joke.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 12, 2005 4:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Moved from Installing Gentoo to Gentoo Chat. Here's the discussion on the gentoo-doc mailinglist.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 12, 2005 4:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Heres the link for stage1 & 2 installs How do I Install Gentoo Using a Stage1 or Stage2 Tarball? Its at the bottom of 2.b in the gentoo handbook.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 12, 2005 5:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bob P wrote:

IMHO if Gentoo is going to take that stance, then it would be a good idea to provide suitable Stage 3 tarballs for all of the supported arches. right now, Gentoo offers Stage 3 tarballs for x86, i686, P3, P4 and XP, but no Stage 3 tarballs are offered for 486, Pentium, Pentium-MMX, Pentium2 or Pentium-M. If the Stage 1 install goes by the wayside, maybe it would be a good idea to add a few arch-specific Stage 3 tarballs to the mirrors to fill-in the gaps.

just a thoguht...


I heartily agree! I am currently doing a stage 1 install, with GCC 3.4.4 simply because I want a true Pentium-M system. Pentium 3 doesn't include the full instruction set, and Pentium 4 supersets the Pentium-M instruction set. To get a true -march system, I need to add ~x86 support for GCC. I could get the same results by doing a stage 3 Pentium3 support, adding the new GCC, and then emerging the world again.

Doesn't this actually add complexity, rather than simplify everything? If Gentoo is going to remain the free as in free-choice distribution, are they going to document how to do this for the other architectures Bob mentioned? Why not just keep making the stage 1/2 tarballs, basic documentation on them, and a huge warning to inexperienced users? The big impetus in the mailing list that is linked above seems to be errors that inexperienced users get doing stage 1/2 installs. Can't we just say that it shouldn't be done if you don't know what you're doing?
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 12, 2005 5:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well that was an interesting thread. Me likes Mike Bonar. maguire!!!!! 8O Chris Gianelloni bah humbug :evil: :lol:
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 12, 2005 5:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AlecTavi wrote:
Bob P wrote:

IMHO if Gentoo is going to take that stance, then it would be a good idea to provide suitable Stage 3 tarballs for all of the supported arches. right now, Gentoo offers Stage 3 tarballs for x86, i686, P3, P4 and XP, but no Stage 3 tarballs are offered for 486, Pentium, Pentium-MMX, Pentium2 or Pentium-M. If the Stage 1 install goes by the wayside, maybe it would be a good idea to add a few arch-specific Stage 3 tarballs to the mirrors to fill-in the gaps.

just a thoguht...


I heartily agree! I am currently doing a stage 1 install, with GCC 3.4.4 simply because I want a true Pentium-M system. Pentium 3 doesn't include the full instruction set, and Pentium 4 supersets the Pentium-M instruction set. To get a true -march system, I need to add ~x86 support for GCC. I could get the same results by doing a stage 3 Pentium3 support, adding the new GCC, and then emerging the world again.

well, pentium-m has always been an odd bird, and IMHO there's never been enough to gain by using a Pentium-M installation over a Pentium 3 installation for me to bother with it. for some people that incremental change is enough to write home about, and for some its not. implementing the changes for Pentium-M have always been a chore. the conversion is not at all simple, because if you start with the standard gentoo media, you have a compiler that doesn't even support the Pentium-M flag.

if you're intent on going to Pentium-M, you'd save youself an awful lot of time by starting with a Jackass! Stage 3 tarball for P3, which already includes GCC 3.4.4 and NPTL. Then all you have to do is switch your CFLAG to Pentium-M and recompile. A definite timesaver. But that's really something that should best be covered in another thread.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 12, 2005 6:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AlecTavi wrote:
Doesn't this actually add complexity, rather than simplify everything? If Gentoo is going to remain the free as in free-choice distribution, are they going to document how to do this for the other architectures Bob mentioned? Why not just keep making the stage 1/2 tarballs, basic documentation on them, and a huge warning to inexperienced users? The big impetus in the mailing list that is linked above seems to be errors that inexperienced users get doing stage 1/2 installs. Can't we just say that it shouldn't be done if you don't know what you're doing?


well, it either adds complexity or subtracts complexity, depending upon how you look at it. its tremendously difficult from a logistical perspective for Gentoo to provide support for 3 different installation methods. bootstrapping Stage 1 installs has always been tricky because of python & perl issues that commonly crept into the portage tree, and made a successful Stage 1 installation something that amounted to the luck of the draw. whether or not you were successfull largely depended upon when you hit the portage tree and if the offending ebuilds were present or not.

in contrast, Stage 3 installs are simple, straightforward, and reliable if you've got a Stage 3 tarball that suits your architecture. if you've got a Stage 3 tarball that suits your arch, then the changes to the Installation handbook are actually a vast improvement. there have to be tens if not hundreds of thousands of users who have mistakenly followed the old Gentoo Handbook and unnecessarily performed a Stage 1 install because the older versions of the Handbook didn't adeqately explain when a Stage 1 install was unnecessary. so in many respects, the decision to remove a Stage 1 from the handbook is actually a GOOD thing for a great many people.

then there are those people for whom the idea backfires -- the people who have an arch that is not supported with a Stage 3 tarball. for these people, the only options are Gentoo Stage 1 installations or in a limited number of cases, 3rd party offerings like Jackass!.

looking at this from the big picture, i think that guiding everyone into a Stage 3 install who can perform a Stage 3 install is actually a good idea. (i'm sure that nobody who's familiar with the whole Stage 1/3 idea would be surprised by that.) for the idea of exclusively supporting Stage 3 to really work, though, you would have to provide support in the form of Stage 3 tarballs for a zillion different arches -- something that's not logistically feasible, so somebody gets left out in the cold. those hit hardest by this decision aren't the Pentium-M users though -- they're the people who are running on odd arches that are supported by GCC but are becoming less supported by the standard Gentoo install guides.

in the big picture, i don't think that Gentoo is really abandoning Stage 1 installs. i think its more likely that the x86 version of the GIH is just trimming out some of bulk, and that other arches will end up being supported in other documentation. (i hope!)
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 12, 2005 6:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think anyone has mentioned this.

If you want to have a Stage 1 install, why not do a 3->1 install? There are tutorials on it in the Gentoo Wiki and on these forums. IMO, 3->1 is better than pure stage 1, but it takes longer.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 12, 2005 6:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Like Bob_P said, there's really no point in doing a stage1 install unless a stage3 tarball does not exist for your system. Stage2, on the other hand, was always useless. I really don't understand what the fuss is about; it's much better this way.
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