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Bob P
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2005 3:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Enlight wrote:
Edit : I can't get the point of rebuilding the whole world (toolchain I agree, maybe system if you find it hard to find the limits of the toolchain) twice since compilation dependencies are normally built first... maybe circular dependencies outside of the bootstrap that I'm not aware of???


it took me a while to understand it too, so don't feel like you're missing something that's obvious. maybe i just need to explain the idea better.

in the first pass you use an old toolkit to build a new toolkit.

in the second pass you use the new toolkit to rebuild itself. since you're going to build your entire system with your new toolkit, it only makes sense that you'd want to use the new toolkit to build itself as well. i think that everyone understands the logic so far. now it gets a bit more difficult.

in the third pass, you use the toolkit to build your world files. granted, it rebuilds the system files too, but gentoo doesn't provide a built-in feature to build the world files exclusive of the toolkit, so we have a limited number of choices. (hielvc/mineraser's tc-update scripts try to address that issue).

if all of the dependencies were built in a proper order, and if every library were rebuilt, we'd be done. unfortunately, there are robably still some ebuilds that get built out of order, and there are likely to be some libraries in the world fileset that point to the OLD world files -- just as the system fileset was populated with some libraries that pointed to old versions of the toolkit. making a final (fourth) pass to rebuild the world files and redundantly compile them completely eliminates the possibility that your system can be borked by either a dependency set that portage mis-orders, or an ebuild that has a statically retained library from a previous build.

hth.
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Bob P
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2005 3:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

enderandrew wrote:
I am looking at Conrad's installation guide (I've already read your take on how he stole if from you so no need to repeat said rant) and plan to build on gcc 4.0.2 or gcc 4.1.

What do I need to do to make sure everything is compiled with the same gcc?

emerge world and then emerge world again?

that's pretty funny. you slam me, and then you ask me to provide support for someone else's project. :roll:

i'd recommend that you look to his support thread and ask for him to help you (if he can).
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2005 4:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Bob, could you please tell me if I'm right on theese two points :

1) only files statically linked with "old" objects (*.a) could mess things up, different ABI etc...
2) running emerge -e world won't rebuild things in the order that would have been needed for a first compilation (i.e the dependencies tree is not totally correct) and that's why 1) can happen.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2005 3:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If emerge -e world doesn't get all the things in the correct order, why would a stage1 installation solve this issue? Afaik, the same dependency handling code in Portage is used so the same deptree's are created. I'm not convinced that an emerge -e world twice is needed.

And for the two emerge -e systems: if you do emerge -e world, doesn't it first update the system packages? If it does, then performing emerge -e system twice is useless too imo.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2005 3:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Swift for president!
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2005 4:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well it's been obvious that it was coming, and I wouldn't really be surprised if in the future Gentoo turns into just another binary distribution. Some may say that sounds pretty far fetched, but really it is not that big of a step to go from saying that supporting compiling the tool chain from scratch is too much of a hassle to saying that supporting compiling X from scratch is too much trouble. So much focus has been placed on ease of use and discouraging people from playing with new software that it really is quite sad.
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cokey
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2005 4:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

EzInKy wrote:
Well it's been obvious that it was coming, and I wouldn't really be surprised if in the future Gentoo turns into just another binary distribution. Some may say that sounds pretty far fetched, but really it is not that big of a step to go from saying that supporting compiling the tool chain from scratch is too much of a hassle to saying that supporting compiling X from scratch is too much trouble. So much focus has been placed on ease of use and discouraging people from playing with new software that it really is quite sad.

:roll:
ciaranm wrote:
Ok, since everyone so far has failed to get it...

In the really really old days, when we used stager to make stage tarballs, stage 1 was the only way to get a clean system with a correct vdb. These are no longer the really really old days, and we use catalyst rather than stager, and all stage tarballs contain a correct vdb. So, if you want the equivalent of a stage 1 install, use a stage 3 and run emerge -e world twice followed by an emerge depclean.

Same flexibility, no loss of choice, no loss of customisation, and far fewer nasty dependency bugs. This isn't about removing choice, it's about getting rid of an old hack and replacing it with a new not-very-hackish solution which is far more likely to work.

Gentoo will never lose it's unique place in the linux world unless all the distros adopt portage and start having multiple trees. We are now able to stop problems from occuring earlier and on top of that offer a stage 1 compiled toolchain but from a gui if it is wanted
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2005 4:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cokehabit wrote:

Gentoo will never lose it's unique place in the linux world unless all the distros adopt portage and start having multiple trees. We are now able to stop problems from occuring earlier and on top of that offer a stage 1 compiled toolchain but from a gui if it is wanted


Anyone can already install Gentoo from a GUI simply by building it in a chroot environment, whether it be a Gentoo livecd or another distro. Sure using stage 3 binaries will stop stage 1 compile problems, but if you're going to do that why not use X binaries as well? And if your going to use X binaries you might as well use KDE binaries too....
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2005 5:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

EzInKy wrote:
cokehabit wrote:
Gentoo will never lose it's unique place in the linux world unless all the distros adopt portage and start having multiple trees. We are now able to stop problems from occuring earlier and on top of that offer a stage 1 compiled toolchain but from a gui if it is wanted
Anyone can already install Gentoo from a GUI simply by building it in a chroot environment, whether it be a Gentoo livecd or another distro. Sure using stage 3 binaries will stop stage 1 compile problems, but if you're going to do that why not use X binaries as well? And if your going to use X binaries you might as well use KDE binaries too....
X, KDE, Gnome and OO.o binaries are already offered. They are not popular. Why would they be anyway, people dont come here looking for ubuntu or mandrake.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2005 5:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cokehabit wrote:

X, KDE, Gnome and OO.o binaries are already offered. They are not popular. Why would they be anyway, people dont come here looking for ubuntu or mandrake.


Is stage 1 is being removed from the handbook because it is not popular?
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2005 5:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

EzInKy wrote:
cokehabit wrote:
X, KDE, Gnome and OO.o binaries are already offered. They are not popular. Why would they be anyway, people dont come here looking for ubuntu or mandrake.
Is stage 1 is being removed from the handbook because it is not popular?
No, stage 1 is being removed for 2 reasons: it is unnecessary and it creates more problems than a stage3.

As was said earlier you get have a stage 1, you just have to do a stage 3 first though :D
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2005 5:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ya know. I just installed from a stage 3 and I'm quite impressed. It took much less time (about two hours for the base system, compared to the ~10 hours or so from a bootstrap), everything works without hassle, and I can just `emerge -e system` once or twice to get the same basic results as from bootstrapping. I rather like it. :)
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2005 6:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cokehabit wrote:
EzInKy wrote:
cokehabit wrote:
X, KDE, Gnome and OO.o binaries are already offered. They are not popular. Why would they be anyway, people dont come here looking for ubuntu or mandrake.
Is stage 1 is being removed from the handbook because it is not popular?
No, stage 1 is being removed for 2 reasons: it is unnecessary and it creates more problems than a stage3.


Compiling X is also unnecessary and creates more problems than installing binaries also, does it not?

cokehabit wrote:



As was said earlier you get have a stage 1, you just have to do a stage 3 first though :D



True, but I could just as well compile and optimize Debian's or Mandrake's toolchain from their base install. Gentoo, however, was always special as it encouraged building from scratch.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2005 6:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You can still build everything from stage 1 should you choose to do so. No one's removing that option yet. It's simply not stated in the install guide to help simplify things somewhat for users, as I understand it.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2005 6:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

codergeek42 wrote:
Ya know. I just installed from a stage 3 and I'm quite impressed. It took much less time (about two hours for the base system, compared to the ~10 hours or so from a bootstrap), everything works without hassle, and I can just `emerge -e system` once or twice to get the same basic results as from bootstrapping. I rather like it. :)


There's nothing wrong with using stage3, I've installed that way quite a few times. What IS wrong, in my opinion, is discouraging building the system from scratch.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2005 6:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

codergeek42 wrote:
You can still build everything from stage 1 should you choose to do so. No one's removing that option yet. It's simply not stated in the install guide to help simplify things somewhat for users, as I understand it.


Yes, I understand it the same way you do. Only binary toolchain installs will be officially supported and building the toolchain from scratch will not. I really like Gentoo for being the best source based distro there is, and wish it to remain so.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2005 6:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

EzInKy wrote:
There's nothing wrong with using stage3, I've installed that way quite a few times. What IS wrong, in my opinion, is discouraging building the system from scratch.
They (the Gentoo devs) are doing that to save some hassle, as bootstrapping can sometimes fail due to (among other things) circular dependencies and whatnot (especially if bootstrapping a full ~arch system). As Ciaran has mentioned in another thread, Stage 1 tends to be very kludgy and really doesn't seem to be needed anymore.

I really don't mind it. I think it's much simpler to have a usable system up and running in less time, then I can recompile everything I want while I'm using it if I need to. *shrug*
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2005 6:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

codergeek42 wrote:
EzInKy wrote:
There's nothing wrong with using stage3, I've installed that way quite a few times. What IS wrong, in my opinion, is discouraging building the system from scratch.
They (the Gentoo devs) are doing that to save some hassle, as bootstrapping can sometimes fail due to (among other things) circular dependencies and whatnot (especially if bootstrapping a full ~arch system). As Ciaran has mentioned in another thread, Stage 1 tends to be very kludgy and really doesn't seem to be needed anymore.


I know it can be difficult to build the toolchain. It took me a couple of tries when I took a shot at Linux From Scratch to get it right. That's why Gentoo was so needed just the way it was.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2005 7:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

codergeek42 wrote:
Ya know. I just installed from a stage 3 and I'm quite impressed. It took much less time (about two hours for the base system, compared to the ~10 hours or so from a bootstrap), everything works without hassle, and I can just `emerge -e system` once or twice to get the same basic results as from bootstrapping. I rather like it. :)

OMG, I've converted codergeek42! <faints>
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2005 7:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sven Vermeulen wrote:
If emerge -e world doesn't get all the things in the correct order, why would a stage1 installation solve this issue?

Circular deps. They're not adequately solved by a stage1 install. They are adequately solved by -e world twice.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2005 8:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think it is a wise idea. Gentoo lacks developers and if more effort is spent on other things (such as making / fixing ebuilds or improving portage) I can only applaud the change.

Thanks again for this great distro :) .
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2005 9:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sven Vermeulen wrote:
If emerge -e world doesn't get all the things in the correct order, why would a stage1 installation solve this issue? Afaik, the same dependency handling code in Portage is used so the same deptree's are created. I'm not convinced that an emerge -e world twice is needed.


i agree completely that the portage dependency tree is the same, so a Stage 1 install wouldn't solve any issues that an emerge -e world wouldn't solve. the key is that the circular dependency problem is cured by the second emerge -e world.

on a slightly different subject:

when we're talking about rebuilding things twice, it really helps to define the situation we're talking about more clearly. we've been talking about two different situations so far (installing gentoo de novo on a system that doesn't have any world files, and repairing/updating a previously installed system where the world fileset has already been populated).

these are two entirely different situations, so how they're addressed has to be different. still, because they're both based on the same dependency handling code in portage, there's going to be some similarity.

in the case when you're installing on a new system, it doesn't matter if you perform two emerge -e systems or two emerge -e worlds. with a stage 3 tarball the system files and the world fileset are the same because the world files haven't been populated yet. so it really doesn't matter if you choose to perform two emerge -e systems or two emerge -e worlds, because the same thing happens:

on the first pass, you build a clean and current toolchain,
on the second pass you use a clean and current toolchain to build your system fileset.

i'm hoping that its obvious to everyone by now why the second step is needed. if it isn't, i guess i'll just have to point back to the previous posts.

in the case when you're updating/revising an existing system, such as a situation where you're updating to a new version of GCC or you're changing CHOSTs, or you're moving from something like an i586 build to a P4 build, you can perform two emerge -e worlds if you want to. but that only cures your toolkit problems and leaves the rest of your world packages un-updated. why? because it takes two complete passes to properly build the entire toolkit, and at this point you've been using the old toolkit (not the new one) to rebuild your world files.

now once we have the toolkit built, i'm going assume that we want to use this brand new, shiny toolkit to rebuild our entire gentoo system. after all, what's the point of building a completely new toolkit if you're not going to use it to build your world packages? there are two ways to approach things now -- if you want you can postpone rebuilding the world files, and assume that they'll eventually get rebuilt anyway, or you can thoroughly rebuild them now so that your entire system will be built with the new toolkit.

assuming that you don't want to rebuild your world packages, you;re done. if however, you want to properly rebuild all of your world packages and assure that every package has been built with the latest tookit, then you have to do two additional emerge -e worlds. the first one rebuilds all of your world files using the new toolkit. the second one assures that all of your world files are built against other world files that were built with the new toolkit, thereby eliminating the static library retention issues discussed earlier. it also cures any circular dependency issues that may occur in the world fileset.

i can't see how i can explain the situation any more clearly, so it looks like this is turning into one of those "lead a horse to water" situations. some people may disagree. i have no problems with that. i'd just like to point out that the conventional wisdom among Gentoo developers has always been that you cannot EVER change CHOSTS unless you perform a Stage 1 install. well, with the Stage 1/3 Guides I've just proven those statements to be wrong. yes, you can change CHOSTs and end up with a 100% stable-as-rock Gentoo system -- you can even build a P4 system using a P1 stage 3 tarball. you just have to know HOW to do it. :wink:
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2005 9:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bob P wrote:
i can't see how i can explain the situation any more clearly, so it looks like this is turning into one of those "lead a horse to water" situations. some people may disagree. i have no problems with that. i'd just like to point out that the conventional wisdom among Gentoo developers has always been that you cannot EVER change CHOSTS unless you perform a Stage 1 install. well, with the Stage 1/3 Guides I've just proven those statements to be wrong. yes, you can change CHOSTs and end up with a 100% stable-as-rock Gentoo system -- you can even build a P4 system using a P1 stage 3 tarball. you just have to know HOW to do it. :wink:

The only safe way to do it is to use a stage3 with old-chost via catalyst to make a stage1 with new-chost, and build a stage3 with new-chost from that.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2005 11:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bob P wrote:
codergeek42 wrote:
Ya know. I just installed from a stage 3 and I'm quite impressed. It took much less time (about two hours for the base system, compared to the ~10 hours or so from a bootstrap), everything works without hassle, and I can just `emerge -e system` once or twice to get the same basic results as from bootstrapping. I rather like it. :)

OMG, I've converted codergeek42! <faints>
Bah. Fedora was ticking me off anyway. Now I just wait while this kernel builds. I hope I didn't forget any important drivers. :)
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2005 11:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

codergeek42 wrote:
You can still build everything from stage 1 should you choose to do so. No one's removing that option yet. It's simply not stated in the install guide to help simplify things somewhat for users, as I understand it.

and it's also no longer being maintained so i would not be surprised if the tools needed no longer work.

edit:
ha i knew it.
Quote:
During the last week the Gentoo Documentation Project changed the Gentoo Handbook in a way, that the installation of a stage3 will be default. Prior to this change the Release Engineering team asked for the change, as the number of users increased, who messed up their base-system due to unrecommended changes during a stage1 or stage2 install or not following the handbook completely.


in other words they wanted to change the install methiod because they for some reason or another do not have the nurons in their head to do a simple thing like this.

user: i need help
dev: ok whats the probelm
user: *explains problem*
dev: sorry it looks like you did not follow the install instrutcions and because of that i cannot help you.

simple as that.
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