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RSnow
n00b
Joined: 26 Jul 2002
Posts: 23
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 Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2005 3:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Kloeri wrote: | | RSnow wrote: | | To read these posts attempting to make people feel inadequate and somehow LESS of an admin because of getting caught with their pants down on an upgrade is the most ridicules thing I have ever seen. |
I'm sorry but I think you misunderstand what's going on here. I'm not personally trying to ridicule anybody but not paying any attention makes a rather bad sysadmin IMO.
We've been shouting at the top of our lungs for almost a year now about these changes and there's a very clear warning in the ebuild as well. If somebody completely disregards all this information that's their choice. But that doesn't mean you're a good sysadmin and personally I'd fire any sysadmin caring so little for the companies servers and/or data. |
Perhaps I'm under the impression that Gentoo would like to grow as a community. Growth requires understanding and not making judgment calls about ones abilities based on a single instance. Simply taking everything out of context and making a blanket statement that 'personally I'd fire' a system admin for missing this particular issue because it's been harped on for a year is not helpful to Gentoo, the Gentoo community, or the people that need assistance in this forum.
Do you not understand that someone could make a mistake and install this update? It's quite easy to do and constantly reading forums and news releases is not always feesible for everyone. I think the key issue here is that there are people that enjoy Gentoo and want it to be their stable server OS might have taken the wrong road. I'm very surprised to see the finger pointing and narrowed attitudes in this thread. When I first found Gentoo back in 2002 and started using the distribution I was amazed at how responsive and just plain nice the community was.
Do you have a lawn? Do you mow it once a week? Do you fertilize it? Weed it? Take care of it properly? Well IMHO anyone that doesn't do all those things should not have a lawn...well the fact is most of us have lawns...most of us don't do those things, and my opinion about what needs to be done with the lawn is about as useful to someone needing a running lawnmower as your opinion on a system admin is to someone needing a working Gentoo box.
Obviously this is an issue, and planning an approach that would allow portage to notify/stop/alert before a critical change was made instead of after would be a nice way to fix this. That is something I've seen talked about for well over a year. |
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Kloeri
Retired Dev
Joined: 02 Sep 2002
Posts: 144
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| Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2005 3:41 pm Post subject: |
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| RSnow wrote: | | Do you not understand that someone could make a mistake and install this update? |
Sure, people makes mistakes. I'm fine with that part. But blaming the developers for ones own faults is just plain wrong.
Own up to your mistakes and ask for help when needed. Plenty of people do just that and find us to be quite friendly and helpful when approached in a friendly way instead of calling us morons or similar. |
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RSnow
n00b
Joined: 26 Jul 2002
Posts: 23
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| Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2005 4:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Kloeri wrote: | | RSnow wrote: | | Do you not understand that someone could make a mistake and install this update? |
Sure, people makes mistakes. I'm fine with that part. But blaming the developers for ones own faults is just plain wrong.
Own up to your mistakes and ask for help when needed. Plenty of people do just that and find us to be quite friendly and helpful when approached in a friendly way instead of calling us morons or similar. |
I am owning up to my mistake, I emerged the package this morning...saw it totally borked and remerged the older version. I came here looking for help and found this helpful thread and am now basking in the warm glow of assistance.  I'm just trying to build up enough courage to turn in my notice, because obviously running a network with 99.9% uptime, never having a virus, internal spyware, or lost user data will not overcome this particular oversite on my part.
I can understand the original users hostility and perhaps making a sarcastic remark was not the best way to encourage assistance, but that does not mean everyone must return fire. Not everyone can be at their best 24/7, it just does not happen. I just don't remember the community being like this. I've just been out of touch.
Needless to say there are many people upset with this change, and were caught with this upgrade. Would an easy solution be to just stop the emerge when something critical like this is going in? Why not alert at the time the command is issued? Something like emerge -u apache would give:
WARNING, CRITICAL CONFIGURATION CHANGES! ABORTING UNLESS FORCED!
That would have saved a lot of trouble.
Again, I have seen it requested many times to move the messages that are displayed during ebuild. I didn't see any of the info in the ebuild because I had other packages emerging and it scrolled right off the screen. I generally don't worry too much about an upgrade unless a major version number jumps up. My first clue something serious had changed was /etc/init.d/apache2 restart WOOP |
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frilled
Retired Dev
Joined: 15 Mar 2004
Posts: 386
Location: Atlantis, inner city ring
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| Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2005 4:09 pm Post subject: |
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I'm kinda fscked since mod_auth_pam does not seem to work anymore. I hate this.
_________________
"Failure is not an option!"
"Sir, we are out of further options." |
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j-m
Retired Dev
Joined: 31 Oct 2004
Posts: 975
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| Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2005 4:12 pm Post subject: |
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| wgi wrote: | | I'm kinda fscked since mod_auth_pam does not seem to work anymore. I hate this. |
mod_auth_pam-1.1.1-r1 works perfectly fine... |
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j-m
Retired Dev
Joined: 31 Oct 2004
Posts: 975
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| Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2005 4:19 pm Post subject: |
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| RSnow wrote: |
WARNING, CRITICAL CONFIGURATION CHANGES! ABORTING UNLESS FORCED!
That would have saved a lot of trouble.
Again, I have seen it requested many times to move the messages that are displayed during ebuild. I didn't see any of the info in the ebuild because I had other packages emerging and it scrolled right off the screen. I generally don't worry too much about an upgrade unless a major version number jumps up. My first clue something serious had changed was /etc/init.d/apache2 restart WOOP |
No, we really won't be aborting installs just because the location of configuration files changed and users did not care to find out for months. That is really not a legitimate reason for ebuilds to die. |
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lokey
n00b
Joined: 30 Aug 2004
Posts: 33
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| Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2005 4:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Kloeri wrote: | | lokey wrote: | Whatever. There seems to be bigger problems with gentoo as a whole.. as running emerge --update --deep world is apparently not sufficient to keep your system updated and secure.
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Add some good sysadmin skills and procedures and you should be fine - of course that would include paying attention to different communication channels like mailinglists etc. that lets you know about important changes and updates and of course the all important testing on non-production boxes.
Failing that will get you into trouble no matter which distribution or operating system you use. |
Kloeri,
I had faith in gentoo / portage to do two things.
1. Update my system completely keeping track of what needs updating (if you think its my responsibility to keep track of this, please look up the definition of "package management system: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Package_management_system )
2. Not break the system in the process. (do no evil)
That trust is now broken.
I like gentoo, its great. It just doesn't seem to be working.  |
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j-m
Retired Dev
Joined: 31 Oct 2004
Posts: 975
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| Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2005 4:42 pm Post subject: |
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Gentoo does not touch anything under CONFIG_PROTECT, and does not have or strive to have artificial intelligence needed to transfer your custom config files. It's sysadmins job to do it, so do it and stop complaining.
| lokey wrote: |
2. Not break the system in the process. (do no evil)
That trust is now broken.
I like gentoo, its great. It just doesn't seem to be working. |
What's broken? Upgrade what's needed, transfer your configuration and restart apache, that's all. So - what does not work for you? |
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mlaccetti
n00b
Joined: 30 Nov 2003
Posts: 45
Location: Toronto
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| Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2005 4:46 pm Post subject: |
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This happened to me before; I think this is the second "major" Apache upgrade. It had to be done, granted, but again, it always seems to creep out of nowhere. However, the one thing that people seem to not understand is how to use etc-update. Seriously. It doesn't automatically overwrite your existing configuration files. Merge them manually, if you want to. The only thing that really changes is the file locations for modules and whatnot. Pretty easy to tweak it yourself.
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Michael Laccetti
michael@s2g-limited.com
s2g Limited
Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Software Development and Consulting |
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Monkeh
Veteran
Joined: 06 Aug 2005
Posts: 1656
Location: England
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| Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2005 5:06 pm Post subject: |
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| lokey wrote: | 2. Not break the system in the process. (do no evil)
That trust is now broken. |
Name me one distribution which hasn't, in the past, managed to break the system somehow with an update. 'Breaking' apache with this update is quite minor. I've had unbootable systems due to other package management programs screwing up. |
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xenoscr
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 123
Location: Indianapolis, IN
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| Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2005 5:16 pm Post subject: Why not an opt-in style safegaurd |
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| How about adding a emerge flag for critical changes and adding an opt in feature like, --critical-prompt, or something similar? That would halt the emerge and ask for confirmation before continuing. But if this option is not used, the emerge would proceed as it currently does. |
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frilled
Retired Dev
Joined: 15 Mar 2004
Posts: 386
Location: Atlantis, inner city ring
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| Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2005 5:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Name me one distribution which hasn't, in the past, managed to break the system somehow with an update. 'Breaking' apache with this update is quite minor. I've had unbootable systems due to other package management programs screwing up. |
Yeah. The "update" terror on other distros is exactly what brought me to gentoo .-)
This is the future. A streaming distro
_________________
"Failure is not an option!"
"Sir, we are out of further options." |
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lokey
n00b
Joined: 30 Aug 2004
Posts: 33
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| Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2005 5:20 pm Post subject: |
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Gentoo does not touch anything under CONFIG_PROTECT, and does not have or strive to have artificial intelligence needed to transfer your custom config files. It's sysadmins job to do it, so do it and stop complaining.
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Right, but creating config files is OK, even if is breaks software that is set up to load all configuration files in a directory (IE apache). I understand this, having read the etc-update man page.
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What's broken? Upgrade what's needed, transfer your configuration and restart apache, that's all. So - what does not work for you? |
If you read this entire thread, you will see a post from me with a link to the bugzilla. I do suggest you try to be more fully informed.
Just curious, what are the exact qualifications in order to be listed as a "Developer" in these forums?
[/quote]
Last edited by lokey on Tue Sep 27, 2005 5:25 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Monkeh
Veteran
Joined: 06 Aug 2005
Posts: 1656
Location: England
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| Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2005 5:22 pm Post subject: |
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| lokey wrote: | | Just curious, what are the exact qualifications in order to be listed as a "Developer" in these forums? |
I assume.. Being a Gentoo developer? |
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j-m
Retired Dev
Joined: 31 Oct 2004
Posts: 975
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| Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2005 5:26 pm Post subject: |
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| lokey wrote: |
If you read this entire thread, you will see a post from me with a link to the bugzilla. I do suggest you try to be more fully informed.
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Sure. Perhaps you should start suggesting this to all those people here who are moaning and ranting and complaining ad nauseam, over and over again, just because they failed to notice something has been going on for 9 months and announced repeatedly everywhere.
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Kloeri
Retired Dev
Joined: 02 Sep 2002
Posts: 144
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| Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2005 5:26 pm Post subject: |
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| lokey wrote: |
1. Update my system completely keeping track of what needs updating (if you think its my responsibility to keep track of this, please look up the definition of "package management system: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Package_management_system )
2. Not break the system in the process. (do no evil)
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Package management or no package management has nothing to do with this. When you update packages (especially important packages) you have to pay attention. The package manager is supposed to make updates easier but can't take away all the sysadmins responsibilities regarding updates.
And all security updates are announced in multiple places like the gentoo-announce mailing-list. There's absolute no good reason not to follow that list if you're doing professional sysadmining.
Regarding automatic updates of configuration files: This would have been far worse than anything else I can think of as it could really break configurations in bad ways. There's a lot of users with highly customised configurations that a script couldn't safely transfer to the new layout.
And I still stand by my words about firing sysadmins playing hazard with company data and/or services - not paying attention to any messages at all and blindly updating important packages is not just a mistake. It's poor sysadmining IMO and it makes me sad that anybody is trying to defend such practise.
Remember: Gentoo is not responsible for keeping your systems running well - the sysadmin is. That said, we shouldn't deliberately make it hard to keep a system running but I seriously believe these changes have made apache administration on Gentoo a lot easier. |
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ova
Retired Dev
Joined: 06 Nov 2003
Posts: 120
Location: Russia, Moscow
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| Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2005 6:24 pm Post subject: |
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| asv wrote: | | Do you honestly think Redhat would do a point release apache upgrade for RHEL4 that broke every exisiting configuration? |
Yea. But one day, red hat guy in tech support announce: "Sorry, but your very good enterprise linux is now unsupported. We can help you to update your system but, please, pay us money."
So it's a kind of choce. Either you do small steps with distribution, or one day you have to do a really very big jump.
Peter. |
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Telamon
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 29 Dec 2003
Posts: 129
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| Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2005 9:04 pm Post subject: Possible Solution for the "Unaware of major changes&quo |
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I haven't read all 4 pages of the discussion yet, but I have a possible solution that loki99 was looking for. How about a use flag/feature called major_config_update, that would work like the fetch flag. If an ebuild requires reconfiguring after the upgrade (ie, this Apache or any Postgres x.x upgrade) then you have to set this flag or the ebuild craps out with a warning message about the upgrade cycle.
As for this Apache upgrade specifically, I didn't find it too demanding. The way it is configured now, we are much less likely to need to do this again. You just put any local settings in a modules.d/01_local.conf file and put your virtual host settings in vhost.d/<domain>.conf, and you are good to go. Should never have to edit httpd.conf at all, which will make etc-update for apache much easier. |
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MasonMouse
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 26 Nov 2002
Posts: 146
Location: Texas, USA
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| Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2005 10:41 pm Post subject: |
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| RSnow wrote: | | Why not have a team outlook, instead of standing around saying someone isn't a good system admin because they don't lurk on the forums all day and read press releases? |
By "team outlook" you mean "have someone else do your work for you"? The only weakness in the Portage system itself is the notifications in the ebuilds often go by pretty quick while you're compiling. I'd like to see an option to email you the notes that are contained in there as you install and/or send them to a system log which can be monitored*, but you can still read them in the ebuilds themselves. Outside of that, if you don't pay any attention at all to what is being installed on your system(s), then it seems pretty apparent that you're not a very good system administrator, and I think that's what most people have been saying. If you took your car to a mechanic and he just started installing parts on the engine without understanding what the parts were and what they did, I think you'd quickly find a new mechanic. If he installed a new part that failed because he didn't read the instructions, I think you'd blame youe mechanic instead of the manufacturer of the part.
* /var/log/emerge.log seems a good place for this. I often have "tail -f /var/log/emerge.log" running while an emerge is taking place just so I can know if something happens. |
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col
l33t
Joined: 08 May 2002
Posts: 820
Location: Melbourne - Australia
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| Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2005 11:17 pm Post subject: |
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| The new apache2 ebuild should have a warning with a press any key to continue so the unwitting user does not stuff up a running webserver. |
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pksings
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 26 Oct 2003
Posts: 110
Location: Southern California
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| Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2005 12:37 am Post subject: Idiocy, my last rant. |
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I guess I'm NOT the only one who is seriously pissed about this.....
Look, all you developers, some, or at least one of you don't seem to get the understanding that breaking our servers, regardless of prior notification is NOT an acceptable practice with a "routine" update. Unpaid, hardworking, dedicated, yes, all these things you are. Ungrateful, demanding, uncooperative, all these things we (end-users) are. Please don't read me wrong or take this personally, but this is just sooooo wrong. I just wanted to get php working again and emerged an update. Now I have the default page, it actually wrote over my index.html. (Of course I have no recent copy!!!)
The "justification" that it was in the newsletter, on the web site or written accross the moon DOES NOT make this acceptable...you broke my website.
People have died for less. Let's face it, when you do things that seriously piss off people, it's not unusual in this world for one to be killed over it.
Now I only say that to inject a serious note into this. Think about it. If I came into your home and made your computer un-bootable you would be seriously pissed at me. And you would curse me the entire time you spent fixing it, if I was still living. So far I've got about an hour into fixing mine, I have yet to curse any of you, but it sure is tempting.
"I need the practice" with Apache? I don't think so. I'm not an admin, nor do I wish to be one. I just want a website to show my family pictures, check my email and voice messages. I used to have one.... And let's face it, Apache2.conf is a nightmare. I'm glad there's someone out there who knows it really well. It will never be me. I knew it well enough at times to get what I needed working. It takes me a few hours to get up to speed and figure out what it is I need and then a few minutes to implement it every time.
Now I realize that it was not your intent to break my system. And it probably is the right thing to do in the long run. But that doesn't make this any easier to take. I'm not going to have the time to fix this for weeks, possibly months. I tried to grab a few minutes the other night and I was just too tired to think it through. And that just made me more mad at you. I'll let somebody else wish and think badly of and for you, I'm not going to allow my mind to be polluted by that.
As soon as I can afford bigger drives, this baby migrates to Ubuntu. This is the last straw....
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PK |
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Monkeh
Veteran
Joined: 06 Aug 2005
Posts: 1656
Location: England
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| Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2005 12:56 am Post subject: Re: Idiocy, my last rant. |
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| pksings wrote: | | The "justification" that it was in the newsletter, on the web site or written accross the moon DOES NOT make this acceptable...you broke my website. |
No, YOU broke YOUR website. You went through with an update without knowing what it did. Your fault, not the devs. If they make an honest mistake and it breaks your system, their fault, if you blindly go around updating packages, your fault. |
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imotlaw
n00b
Joined: 25 May 2005
Posts: 38
Location: Washington DC Area
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| Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2005 2:23 am Post subject: |
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A line by line analysis of a badly thought out post by one pksings:
| Quote: |
Look, all you developers, some, or at least one of you don't seem to get the understanding that breaking our servers, regardless of prior notification is NOT an acceptable practice with a "routine" update.
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Unless the devs came to your house and emerged the update themselves, you are responsible for any purported 'breaking' of your servers.
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Unpaid, hardworking, dedicated, yes, all these things you are. Ungrateful, demanding, uncooperative, all these things we (end-users) are.
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I can find no fault with this statement. Well written.
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Please don't read me wrong or take this personally, but this is just sooooo wrong. I just wanted to get php working again and emerged an update. Now I have the default page, it actually wrote over my index.html. (Of course I have no recent copy!!!)
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The words that come to mind are "backup" and "think". Why wouldn't you protect folders you don't want overwritten? Also, in this section you inadvertently admit that you were the one who updated your system, not the devs.
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The "justification" that it was in the newsletter, on the web site or written accross the moon DOES NOT make this acceptable...you broke my website.
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There you go making false statements about the identity of the updater again. Tsk, tsk. In addition, (1) the justification makes sense to people capable of distinguishing sense from nonsense, (2) you acknowledge here that fair warning was given. You didn't have to update. You didn't even have to update apache to update php; you could have just compiled sans ebuild (or made your own).
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People have died for less. Let's face it, when you do things that seriously piss off people, it's not unusual in this world for one to be killed over it.
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This is barely worth commenting on, but it wouldn't be a line-by-line without something. So let's settle for the fairly neutral "quite possibly the dumbest comment in this post" and leave it at that.
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Now I only say that to inject a serious note into this. Think about it. If I came into your home and made your computer un-bootable you would be seriously pissed at me. And you would curse me the entire time you spent fixing it, if I was still living. So far I've got about an hour into fixing mine, I have yet to curse any of you, but it sure is tempting.
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My favorite point yet again! They didn't come into your home and make your computer unbootable. They didn't even come into your home and prevent your apache server from working! You did. The only person who broke your computer was you. As for the curses, if you can actually perform one, I'd be willing to suffer it, just to know that magic worked. Since I'm doubting you can, I'll just stay uncursed and sadly magic-free.
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"I need the practice" with Apache? I don't think so. I'm not an admin, nor do I wish to be one.
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Maybe I'm nutty (ok, well, I am nutty; maybe I'm being nuttier than usual), but I was under the impression that if you are responsible for installing, configuring, and maintaining a system and installing, configuring, and maintaining a web-server, then you *are* an admin.
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I just want a website to show my family pictures, check my email and voice messages.
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A noble goal, and (honestly, no joking or sarcasm) I wish you the best of luck.
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I used to have one.... And let's face it, Apache2.conf is a nightmare. I'm glad there's someone out there who knows it really well. It will never be me. I knew it well enough at times to get what I needed working. It takes me a few hours to get up to speed and figure out what it is I need and then a few minutes to implement it every time.
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I don't know, I'd never used Apache before in my life until a few months ago, I definitely don't know it, much less "really well", but any time I've needed to do something, simple searches of this forum, google, and the apache site have provided the answers I've needed quicker than you can say "This line-by-line is getting old".
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Now I realize that it was not your intent to break my system. And it probably is the right thing to do in the long run.
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The dev's didn't break your system (see above), but they realize (from your post) that it wasn't your intent to break your system either.
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But that doesn't make this any easier to take. I'm not going to have the time to fix this for weeks, possibly months. I tried to grab a few minutes the other night and I was just too tired to think it through. And that just made me more mad at you. I'll let somebody else wish and think badly of and for you, I'm not going to allow my mind to be polluted by that.
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Come on, read your post, you already think badly of them. And the fix takes a little time, which time could have been spent on the configs before you did the upgrade (if you'd noticed the signs on the moon you mention earlier), or after (if you had simply emerged yourself back down the old-config version).
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As soon as I can afford bigger drives, this baby migrates to Ubuntu. This is the last straw....
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I sincerely hope you get those bigger drives soon.
As for those who don't like the negative tone on this thread by we defenders of the upgrade, consider that if a person made a thread that asked "How do I do x-y-z", they would have elicited kind help from one or all of us. Instead, this post was started with somethign akin to "You guys all suck, I hate you", which, not being a request for help, we feel no need to be kind about.
I hope others find this thread as amusing as I do. |
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MasonMouse
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 26 Nov 2002
Posts: 146
Location: Texas, USA
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| Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2005 5:08 am Post subject: |
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I don't find it amusing; I find it sad that people are actually getting upset at the developers for this. It's akin to going back to a car lot and arguing:
"I bought this brand new car and I drove it for a week when it stopped running all of the sudden!"
"Did you put gas in it?"
"Gas? What's that?"
"It's in the user manual. Didn't you notice the fuel gauge reading empty too?"
"I don't have time to read manuals or check gauges. I just want to drive to work and back! Now I have to go and put gas in it too?! You people are morons for building a car that requires the driver to take care of it! I'm taking this car back and going to go get a BMW! I bet *they* don't require gas!"
At which point, lawsuit or not, I'd have to smack the person if I were the salesman. |
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ThaPrince
n00b
Joined: 20 Nov 2003
Posts: 2
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| Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2005 6:02 am Post subject: |
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I also believe that any problems that may be caused by this upgrade are the sole responsibility of the sysadmin. If you have made changes above and beyond the default gentoo template then it is not the role of the developers to make their updates compatible with anything you have changed outside of their template. It is for the same reason that adding or modifying equipment often will void the warranty on said equipment.
What it comes down to is this:
We have been lucky that we have had to do little with prior upgrades for them to function. It is reasonable to expect that any upgrade can cost the same amount of time taken to diverge from the initial template to maintain compatibility. Any sysadmin that doesnt plan for this when performing upgrades is amiss and not prepared for upgrading in the first place. Never assume that an upgrade will not break. If more sysadmins went into upgrades assuming they will break, and planning accordingly, they would find their upgrades alot less stressful.
Anyone who has maintained large scale production systems would be weaned of relying on any type of package manager to keep their configurations correct. I take what I can get from portage and it helps me alot in many ways. I do not expect it to do my job for me.
Regards,
Jon Christopherson |
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