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j-m
Retired Dev
Joined: 31 Oct 2004
Posts: 975
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 Posted: Sat Oct 01, 2005 9:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Siftah wrote: | My comments have been positive and constructive in suggesting why this behaviour was un-expected for most users, it seems the Dev's are too arrogant to see any other point of view than their own, a failing which can only impact negatively on Gentoo as a distribution.
I'm not going to participate further in this thread, it seems your arrogance is stopping it from progressing productively. |
No, your comments have not been constructive at all. Suggesting that ebuild should bail out is not constructive - it actually breaks things needlessly. If someone runs a server, he's supposed to know what he's doing, and Gentoo offers documentation/announcements/GLSAs, forums/mailing lists/IRC channels for that purpose. If the user does not care to read them, then it's up to him to pick up the broken pieces and fix his system. I have missed any other suggestions here, instead you are telling us that we don't provide the needed information in right places, which is obviously untrue, but that does not prevent you from repeating it over and over again.
This thread should be closed, it does not lead anywhere. If you want help, describe your problem and ask. If you want to rant and blame others for your own mistakes, then /dev/null is the best place for that... |
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Maedhros
Bodhisattva
Joined: 14 Apr 2004
Posts: 5511
Location: Durham, UK
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| Posted: Sat Oct 01, 2005 9:36 pm Post subject: |
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| General Guidelines for Off The Wall wrote: | | All posts must be professional and courteous. You are free to disagree with your fellow community members. You are not free to attack, degrade, troll or malign them. |
This may be from the Off the Wall guidelines, but that doesn't mean it doesn't apply to any of the other forums.
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loki99
Advocate
Joined: 10 Oct 2003
Posts: 2056
Location: Vienna, €urope
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| Posted: Sat Oct 01, 2005 10:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Siftah wrote: | | I'm not going to participate further in this thread, it seems your arrogance is stopping it from progressing productively. |
This thread hasn't been productiv but for a few well-balanced posts.
I can understand j-m's and the other dev's frustration. This update didn't come over night. It has been mentioned in all kind of places the last nine months. Bailing out has been ruled out by the responsible devs. I guess we gotta accept that, unless someone of the critics is willing and able to fill the spot of those devs and is able to prove that he/she will do a better job.
Introducing a new way of warning the users thru portage about major updates, would depend on someone qualified to promote and push such a project forward. As far as I understand none of the present devs is willing to pamper such a project (yet?), which is another thing we oughta accept and respect. As long as none of us has the guts to step up and take charge of that issue all we can do is make suggestions and ask the devs in an appropiate manner, if they are intrested to do the work for us!
This just is a community project and all your ranting will not make it better, but frustrate the devs that made this all happen. Don't get me wrong. I don't want to silence anyone, but please do think before you flame and insult them.
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slonocode
Apprentice
Joined: 03 Jun 2002
Posts: 273
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| Posted: Sun Oct 02, 2005 3:05 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | This thread should be closed, it does not lead anywhere. |
I disagree. This thread has shed some light and given great insight into the attitudes of gentoo developers. I suggest it be made sticky and move to the top of the forum. |
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jhunholz
Apprentice
Joined: 29 Apr 2004
Posts: 154
Location: Raleigh, NC
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| Posted: Sun Oct 02, 2005 3:10 am Post subject: |
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Frankly, I think the change-over was handled very smooth. It was very well documented in MANY different locations (gentoo-server mail list, gentoo-announce mail list, Gentoo Weekly Newsletter, Gentoo Official Docs, and MORE!). Devs, thanks for the smooth transition! Most of us enjoy how it was handled.
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loki99
Advocate
Joined: 10 Oct 2003
Posts: 2056
Location: Vienna, €urope
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| Posted: Sun Oct 02, 2005 6:49 am Post subject: |
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| slonocode wrote: |
I disagree. This thread has shed some light and given great insight into the attitudes of gentoo developers. I suggest it be made sticky and move to the top of the forum. |
Do invest 1/10 of the time j-m did and let yourself get bitched at for doing a great job! I'd be intrested to see your reaction!
Is this really so hard to understand? 
Geehz! |
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slonocode
Apprentice
Joined: 03 Jun 2002
Posts: 273
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| Posted: Sun Oct 02, 2005 7:00 am Post subject: |
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| loki99 wrote: | | slonocode wrote: |
I disagree. This thread has shed some light and given great insight into the attitudes of gentoo developers. I suggest it be made sticky and move to the top of the forum. |
Do invest 1/10 of the time j-m did and let yourself get bitched at for doing a great job! I'd be intrested to see your reaction!
Is this really so hard to understand?
Geehz! |
There have been plenty of posts in this thread that wouldn't fall into the "bitched at" category. The response to these is still the same and again gives great insight into the attitudes of gentoo developers. |
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edomaur
n00b
Joined: 19 Sep 2002
Posts: 73
Location: Switzerland
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| Posted: Sun Oct 02, 2005 9:07 am Post subject: |
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Well...
I knew before the unmasking of the new Apache that there will be some work to do on a production server after emergeing the update.
And I'm not a reader of the lists/IRC/etc. only of the GWN.
What this is telling you ?
The upgrade ran seamlessly, except for the SSL config part (but that is only because I am confused about all that SSL thingy), still happy with Gentoo.
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loki99
Advocate
Joined: 10 Oct 2003
Posts: 2056
Location: Vienna, €urope
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| Posted: Sun Oct 02, 2005 11:31 am Post subject: |
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| slonocode wrote: |
There have been plenty of posts in this thread that wouldn't fall into the "bitched at" category. The response to these is still the same and again gives great insight into the attitudes of gentoo developers. |
Just take a look at your own posts. You keep complaining about the way these changes were announced, without providing a solution for the problem. You claim multiple times that "announcing it everywhere" was not sufficient, but fail to mention where else it should have been mentioned. The only solution you provide is "bailing out", even though it has been rejected a couple of times before.
You did ask why it has been rejected, but did you search bugzilla to have a look at the arguments provided there? NO! You choose to start a rant about the developers attitude. And all this embedded in a quite offensive thread, from the devs point of view! But still you wonder why they are defensive?
I really do wonder what you guys are up to! If you are sincerely intrested to better Gentoo, backup, think about a sane solution and propose it in an adequate manner at the right place. |
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slonocode
Apprentice
Joined: 03 Jun 2002
Posts: 273
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| Posted: Sun Oct 02, 2005 12:06 pm Post subject: |
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| loki99 wrote: | | slonocode wrote: |
There have been plenty of posts in this thread that wouldn't fall into the "bitched at" category. The response to these is still the same and again gives great insight into the attitudes of gentoo developers. |
Just take a look at your own posts. You keep complaining about the way these changes were announced, without providing a solution for the problem. You claim multiple times that "announcing it everywhere" was not sufficient, but fail to mention where else it should have been mentioned. The only solution you provide is "bailing out", even though it has been rejected a couple of times before.
You did ask why it has been rejected, but did you search bugzilla to have a look at the arguments provided there? NO! You choose to start a rant about the developers attitude. And all this embedded in a quite offensive thread, from the devs point of view! But still you wonder why they are defensive?
I really do wonder what you guys are up to! If you are sincerely intrested to better Gentoo, backup, think about a sane solution and propose it in an adequate manner at the right place. |
You don't seem to get the point. My posts asked for acknowledgement that if so many users were angered and caught unaware then the channels included in "everywhere" were inadequate. I asked for no blame to be thrown around but for a solution to be found. From my perspective the way to reach the most users possible with this is during the emerge of the package. If that is not feasible(although the reason given is not the strongest) then perhaps another method would be needed. Now who could come up with a better alternatives than the devs?
They say they can't make the emerge pause to make sure the user knows that the configs are changing because it will cause too many bug reports. I still can't believe that they got any less bug reports after unaware users had apache stop working than they would have from pausing the emerge. I can't believe that broken apache installations is a better solution than a paused emerge inconvenience. |
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j-m
Retired Dev
Joined: 31 Oct 2004
Posts: 975
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| Posted: Sun Oct 02, 2005 12:10 pm Post subject: |
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| loki99 wrote: |
The only solution you provide is "bailing out", even though it has been rejected a couple of times before.
You did ask why it has been rejected, but did you search bugzilla to have a look at the arguments provided there? |
Once again and hopefully more clear - in general, bailing out in an ebuild is acceptable only if the ebuild would error out itself later on (bad use flags combo, unmet kernel config dependencies, etc.) or if the resulting package would compile but would not actually work or would be compiled w/ random features, not corresponding to the original choice of use flags. I should also add that there are developers that disagree w/ bailing out even in these cases.
So - bailing out just because configuration files require a manual tweaking after upgrade is definitely NOT an acceptable solution. Just imagine that you run 'emerge something' on a slow machine and walk away (or leave it running overnight) to come back a couple of hours later and see some stupid unneeded message and the remaining 30 ebuilds not emerged - argh! 
Moreover, it produces unneeded and unproductive "bugs" - that mailbase thing is a prime example, many "bugs" about external kernel modules erroring out w/ message that a configured kernel/particular kernel option is required are another example.
Upgrading to the new apache layout requires migration of the old configuration, but there's nothing broken, apache itself is perfectly functional and will start and work once this work is done. Therefore, there's no legitimate reason to bail out and annoy users who are aware of the configuration changes. Additionally, there's einfo in the ebuild telling user that the configuration has changed and there's a link to apache upgrade guide at the end of emerge. I can't really imagine what else should be done to raise user awareness (and noone answered my questions in this regard).
Related reading:
Bug 11359 - pkg_postinst/pkg_preinst ewarn/einfo logging (meanwhile, everyone can use enotice to do this)
Bug 12768 - merging should not exit as soon as one package merge fails
Bug 8423 - Split CONFIG_PROTECT into separate installing and uninstalling options (nuke untouched files) |
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loki99
Advocate
Joined: 10 Oct 2003
Posts: 2056
Location: Vienna, €urope
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| Posted: Sun Oct 02, 2005 1:16 pm Post subject: |
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| slonocode wrote: |
You don't seem to get the point. My posts asked for acknowledgement that if so many users were angered and caught unaware then the channels included in "everywhere" were inadequate. I asked for no blame to be thrown around but for a solution to be found. |
I do not think they were inadequate. But you are right! We could better the situation, by giving it some thought and by coming up with a sane solution. But it is not the devs job, IMHO, to make sure that even the ones that do not find the time to check gentoo.org before upgrading a somehow "critical" server, get a notice about the config changes.
Every dev out there already has a job to take care of and from their point of view the package managers did all they could to inform anyone who seriously cares about his server. If this isn't enough for some of us, I think it is our job to come up with a solution and propose it properly.
| slonocode wrote: | | I can't believe that broken apache installations is a better solution than a paused emerge inconvenience. |
It really depends on your point of perspective! Why should the admins that do their job professionally have to bother with such an annoyance, just because there are some other "admins" who have a habit of updating their servers blindly?
Do you get my point now?  |
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STEDevil
Apprentice
Joined: 24 Apr 2003
Posts: 156
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| Posted: Sun Oct 02, 2005 3:07 pm Post subject: |
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| CHTEKK wrote: |
Yeah, because you actually were notified of changes, even the ebuild said "the config has changed, please be careful and update".
What should we do? Let your server reboot and change all index.html and index.php sites with a "OMG APACHE CHANGED!" message so you noticed? We really went out to all channels we could reach users with, if you do not care about them and don't read them, and even don't check what the ebuild says to you when emerging, well... your fault.
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While in essense I agree on this, I still think there is an unobtrusive way to put in an extra safeguard that would be immensly helpfull in avoiding people borking their systems. Why not make emerge pretend also show the updateinfo from the e-build? That way you can read & decide upon futher action right there and then in commandline. Anybody not taking advantage of such a feature while also ignoring every other informationresource would just be butt stupid and deserve to have their systems broken.
This solution is even more valid for packages that are less famous then Apache (and thus wont get into the limelight eg with mentioning in GWN to the same extent).
In this case the Apache team has really made a greate effort in informing and I doubt that it can be done better in any way. But with this feature in Portage one could (for no extra deveffort at all from the package maintainers) enhance the entire image of Gentoo's stability and errorpronness by reducing the likelyness of human errors. |
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j-m
Retired Dev
Joined: 31 Oct 2004
Posts: 975
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| Posted: Sun Oct 02, 2005 3:18 pm Post subject: |
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| STEDevil wrote: |
While in essense I agree on this, I still think there is an unobtrusive way to put in an extra safeguard that would be immensly helpfull in avoiding people borking their systems. Why not make emerge pretend also show the updateinfo from the e-build? That way you can read & decide upon futher action right there and then in commandline. Anybody not taking advantage of such a feature while also ignoring every other informationresource would just be butt stupid and deserve to have their systems broken.
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| Code: |
man emerge
--changelog (-l)
Use this in conjunction with the --pretend action. This will show the ChangeLog entries for all the packages
that will be upgraded.
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Noone using it? Obviously... |
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STEDevil
Apprentice
Joined: 24 Apr 2003
Posts: 156
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| Posted: Sun Oct 02, 2005 3:32 pm Post subject: |
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| j-m wrote: | | STEDevil wrote: |
While in essense I agree on this, I still think there is an unobtrusive way to put in an extra safeguard that would be immensly helpfull in avoiding people borking their systems. Why not make emerge pretend also show the updateinfo from the e-build? That way you can read & decide upon futher action right there and then in commandline. Anybody not taking advantage of such a feature while also ignoring every other informationresource would just be butt stupid and deserve to have their systems broken.
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| Code: |
man emerge
--changelog (-l)
Use this in conjunction with the --pretend action. This will show the ChangeLog entries for all the packages
that will be upgraded.
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Noone using it? Obviously... |
The Changelog is NOT the same thing as the warningmessages that shows up at the very end with packages that has important warnings...
Besides, do emerge world -vp every 1month or so and you will have an hour of reading with usually compleatly nonimportant info. Again, it's the specific warningmessages I would like to see, ie pretty much the same stuff that gest listed with eg portlog-info (except that is AFTER the installation as opposed to BEFORE installation). If there is something there that catches my eye, then for sure the changelog is one of the next things to look at. |
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slonocode
Apprentice
Joined: 03 Jun 2002
Posts: 273
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| Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2005 4:17 am Post subject: |
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| loki99 wrote: |
I do not think they were inadequate. But you are right! We could better the situation, by giving it some thought and by coming up with a sane solution. But it is not the devs job, IMHO, to make sure that even the ones that do not find the time to check gentoo.org before upgrading a somehow "critical" server, get a notice about the config changes. |
If you feel the situation could be bettered than the current situation is inadequate. That's the whole point. And this is not only about critical servers its about the entire userbase.
| Quote: |
It really depends on your point of perspective! Why should the admins that do their job professionally have to bother with such an annoyance, just because there are some other "admins" who have a habit of updating their servers blindly?
Do you get my point now? |
It seems like common sense that the place to inform the most users possible is at their computer when they attempt to upgrade the package. Surely this is enough info for devs to try and find a solution. That is if they didn't have the attitude that showed up in this thread. |
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loki99
Advocate
Joined: 10 Oct 2003
Posts: 2056
Location: Vienna, €urope
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| Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2005 7:28 am Post subject: |
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| slonocode wrote: |
If you feel the situation could be bettered than the current situation is inadequate. That's the whole point. |
Nope! Your logic is flawed. Just because something can be bettered, does not mean that it is inadequate.
| slonocode wrote: |
Surely this is enough info for devs to try and find a solution. That is if they didn't have the attitude that showed up in this thread. |
Well, then keep on living in a dream world, because you obviously do not understand how a community project works.  |
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j-m
Retired Dev
Joined: 31 Oct 2004
Posts: 975
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| Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2005 9:51 am Post subject: |
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| STEDevil wrote: |
The Changelog is NOT the same thing as the warningmessages that shows up at the very end with packages that has important warnings...
Besides, do emerge world -vp every 1month or so and you will have an hour of reading with usually compleatly nonimportant info. Again, it's the specific warningmessages I would like to see, ie pretty much the same stuff that gest listed with eg portlog-info (except that is AFTER the installation as opposed to BEFORE installation). If there is something there that catches my eye, then for sure the changelog is one of the next things to look at. |
Bleh, nope... There are tons of einfo/ewarn messages in ebuilds, it would be much more cluttered than that 'emerge -uDpvl world' changelog thing and would miss context. 
For this suggestion to be reasonably useful, we would need to add a functionality to ebuilds/portage, something like eupgrade messages displayed w/ emerge -u. Don't think that adding a new functionality is quite the easiest solution - but still an interesting idea (sadly, the only one in this thread). Maybe you could take this to gentoo-dev mailing list, otherwise it will be lost in this mostly pointless thread. |
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slonocode
Apprentice
Joined: 03 Jun 2002
Posts: 273
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| Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2005 10:18 am Post subject: |
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| loki99 wrote: |
Nope! Your logic is flawed. Just because something can be bettered, does not mean that it is inadequate. |
Inadequate in the sense that the need is to reach the most users possible. But if you are reduced to arguing strict definitions of words than I suppose we are about done. |
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loki99
Advocate
Joined: 10 Oct 2003
Posts: 2056
Location: Vienna, €urope
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| Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2005 11:26 am Post subject: |
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| slonocode wrote: |
Inadequate in the sense that the need is to reach the most users possible. But if you are reduced to arguing strict definitions of words than I suppose we are about done. |
I'm not reduced to arguing strict definitions, but words still have a quite define meaning to me.
But yeah! I guess we are done. Since you refuse to acknowledge that it is your responsibility as a user to make suggestions in the proper place and manner, if you want the devs to change anything. The other option would be to get your ass up and help out yourself.
But I'm tired of running in circles. So this is it for me! |
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slonocode
Apprentice
Joined: 03 Jun 2002
Posts: 273
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| Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2005 1:50 pm Post subject: |
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| loki99 wrote: | | slonocode wrote: |
Inadequate in the sense that the need is to reach the most users possible. But if you are reduced to arguing strict definitions of words than I suppose we are about done. |
I'm not reduced to arguing strict definitions, but words still have a quite define meaning to me.
But yeah! I guess we are done. Since you refuse to acknowledge that it is your responsibility as a user to make suggestions in the proper place and manner, if you want the devs to change anything. The other option would be to get your ass up and help out yourself.
But I'm tired of running in circles. So this is it for me! |
Yes and i defined them in clear terms since you couldn't seem to get the meaning I intended from my multiple previous posts. If the need is to reach as many users as possible than the channels used to do that were inadequate. But of course you want to gloss over that in favor of spouting the "do it yourself" crap. I also never said I refuse to do anything.
If a dev has time to come here and participate in this discussion they can certainly take that information back to their mailing lists so don't give me this dismissive crap about proper channels. If there were any acknowledgement of the shortcomings and a genuine discussion here I would have no problem filing a bug report about it.
The circles start when you try to nitpick a word meaning or respond to things beside the point. But hey it seems to be the gentoo way. |
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amne
Bodhisattva
Joined: 17 Nov 2002
Posts: 6378
Location: Graz / EU
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| Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2005 4:13 pm Post subject: |
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Btw: I'll stab everyone who complains he didn't know about the upcoming python upgrade with a rusty sponn.
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Dinosaur week! (Ok, this thread is so last week) |
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Athas
Guru
Joined: 04 Sep 2003
Posts: 394
Location: Brøndby, Denmark
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Monkeh
Veteran
Joined: 06 Aug 2005
Posts: 1656
Location: England
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| Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2005 4:47 pm Post subject: |
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| amne wrote: | | Btw: I'll stab everyone who complains he didn't know about the upcoming python upgrade with a rusty sponn. |
I'll join you. Except I'll be bringing along an old friend from GTA:SA (the double ended purple dildo). |
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astaines
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 18 Apr 2004
Posts: 101
Location: Ireland
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| Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2005 8:23 pm Post subject: Apache upgrade |
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Dear all,
I am astonished by the amount of weeping and wailing. I've run Gentoo for about two years, and Apache for nearly seven. The new Gentoo Apache config is much better than the old, and in my view, better than the standard Apache. It's certianly easier to compile with mod_perl.
I think the devs did a great job, and I found the advance discussions very helpful and quite clear. If I ran a server for a living, which I don't, I would make sure to read GWN.
So thanks to the devs, and less whinging from the numpties please.
Anthony Staines |
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