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guzhead
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2005 2:46 am    Post subject: Learning gentoo is not learning inux??? Reply with quote

I was talking yesterday with a friend, he use slasckware, and he told me that gentoo is not a linux, that I dont know aything about linux if all I know is gentoo... I'm a n00b, I've use gentoo almost all my "linux life"...

The cuestion is : Its true that learning gentoo isn't learning Linux??

(excuse my english)
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2005 3:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gentoo is a Linux distribution.

Slackware is a Linux distribution.

Both have their particularities. In general, you will learn more installing Gentoo than you would installing Slackware.

Beyond that, it doesn't really matter which distribution you use. What matters is what you do with it.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2005 3:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dlareh wrote:
Gentoo is a Linux distribution.

Slackware is a Linux distribution.

Both have their particularities. In general, you will learn more installing Gentoo than you would installing Slackware.

Beyond that, it doesn't really matter which distribution you use. What matters is what you do with it.


well said.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2005 3:29 am    Post subject: Re: Learning gentoo is not learning inux??? Reply with quote

guzhead wrote:
I was talking yesterday with a friend, he use slasckware, and he told me that gentoo is not a linux, that I dont know aything about linux if all I know is gentoo... I'm a n00b, I've use gentoo almost all my "linux life"...


That's dumb. He was probably just feeling inferior. I've heard that Slackware is the most Unix-like of all the distros, so by his logic, Slackware is the least Linux-like.

J
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2005 3:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Doesn't teach you how to type either... :)
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2005 8:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gentoo won't teach you anything... Especially if somebody else sets it up for you. Installing it by your self with teach you some basic cli skills. What will teach you will be the little projects you start with gentoo. And with gentoo in my experince it's easier to do these projects.

Also he is right Gentoo is not linux! Linux is technically a kernel and the entire system is a miss match of GNU/other softwares....
Learning Linux is learning how to write drivers and schedulars etc....
Learning Gentoo is like learning howto compile a kernel and use emerge and editing a few files to boot, after that its up to you to do the rest. The reason why Gentoo has a good reputation because most people go "I've installed Gentoo and I'm bored lets make a server and get AA fonts and learn how to program!!!"
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2005 9:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd tell him that Slackware doesn't teach you Computer Science either.

It's silly to say that Gentoo doesn't teach you anything. Of course it doesn't. Does your car teach you how to drive?
Does a pen teach you how to write? or read?

Gentoo, when used, gives you insight into the innerworkings of a linux distribution. All it can help "teach" you is how Gentoo works.
That many things in Gentoo have similar counter-parts in other distribution is a bonus, but it by defintion teaches you nothing about them.
And the same goes for Slackware, Debian, RedHat or any other distribution.

Don't worry. He is right, it doesn't teach you linux. But that point is of no value.
I haven't used Slackware but from what I gather, you get as much Linux knowledge from Slackware as you do from Gentoo.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2005 11:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

lightvhawk0 wrote:
Also he is right Gentoo is not linux! Linux is technically a kernel and the entire system is a miss match of GNU/other softwares....


*sigh*

And a hacker is a keen programmer, right? Words get misused to the point that they have new meanings. Linux is understood as the operating system. Technically you are right, sure, but in practise I'd give up the preaching.

lightvhawk0 wrote:
Learning Linux is learning how to write drivers and schedulars etc....


Eh? So to "know" Linux you have to be able to program low level C? Perhaps, if we are going with your "IT'S THE KERNEL ONLY" stance, but again in reality "knowing" Linux would be more to do with knowing how to use and administer it.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2005 1:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think what people learn by using Linux based distributions is GNU...
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2005 5:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lightvhawk0 wrote:
Also he is right Gentoo is not linux! Linux is technically a kernel and the entire system is a miss match of GNU/other softwares....


Technically, maybe, but now you're turning it into an argument of semantics. The general term 'Linux' (aka, the one everyone uses) refers to a series of distributions using a Linux core, and that's hardly colloquial at this point.

In other words, I can safely say, “I use Linux” and have most people know what I mean. Sorry, but your alternate definition (and perhaps more accurate definition) is just going to confuse people.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2005 6:05 pm    Post subject: Re: Learning gentoo is not learning inux??? Reply with quote

guzhead wrote:
I was talking yesterday with a friend, he use slasckware, and he told me that gentoo is not a linux, that I dont know aything about linux if all I know is gentoo... I'm a n00b, I've use gentoo almost all my "linux life"...

The cuestion is : Its true that learning gentoo isn't learning Linux??

(excuse my english)

Your friend is wrong. I am not getting into the lexical flamewar here. 8) If your friend sees Linux as just a kernel and "knowing Linux" as meaning "beeing a kernel subsystem maintainer" that's an other thing. As long as "knowing Linux" means "being fluent when working with a Linux distribution" working with Gentoo will teach you a lot. Especially if you have little prior experience, in that case Gentoo can be overwhelming... or very fun :roll: Depends how you look at it.

Every distro has it's own weirdness that you won't lear anywhere else. That said if you feel good in Gnome on Gentoo, you will feel good in Gnome on any Linux distro.

As a side note, what is your friends experience with Gentoo ?
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2005 12:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lol I was really tired when I made that post, but I was trying to say that he may have see things differently because using Gentoo has been a great platform for me to learn on. I honestly can't see why he would assume your using Gentoo means you have no knowledge of linux after using it.....

Also yeah I was trying to say maybe he saw linux as just the kernel. We all know that "linux" has dual meanings. So I was trying to seperate that using Gentoo won't make you a kernel guru but using Gentoo may help you understand linux as a system better. Especially if you start picking up and test projects like initng.

Sorry about the confusion lol posting when you have had 3 hours of sleep is a bad idea..... :twisted:
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2005 1:15 am    Post subject: Re: Learning gentoo is not learning inux??? Reply with quote

guzhead wrote:
I was talking yesterday with a friend, he use slasckware, and he told me that gentoo is not a linux, that I dont know aything about linux if all I know is gentoo... I'm a n00b, I've use gentoo almost all my "linux life"...

The cuestion is : Its true that learning gentoo isn't learning Linux??

(excuse my english)


he's right when he says Gentoo isn't Linux. Gentoo is a GNU/Linux distribution and nothing more. Linux is only the kernel.

But I must disagree with the second statement. You learn a lot using Gentoo. You won't learn anything about Linux (I am speaking of the kernel) but you will learn a lot about how dealing with a UNIX-Like system. And you will learn more about it with Gentoo rather than with Slackware,
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2005 4:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You know, I find I really despise it when people start with the whole "Linux is only the kernel" or "What Linux do I use? 2.6.9-rc3, mostly," when they know full well what people mean. It has become one of my biggest pet peeves. Most people don't care that the correct term is a "distrobution of a GNU/Linux operating system" or whatever you think is right. Saying "Linux" nowadays means the same thing. Stop preaching.

</semi-rant>
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2005 4:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

Saying "Linux" nowadays means the same thing. Stop preaching.

Yeah, right. I wanna see you get this over to RMS :twisted: GNU ueber alles ! :twisted:
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2005 8:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cinder6 wrote:
Saying "Linux" nowadays means the same thing. Stop preaching.



It may be, but it is wrong. I know people say "Linux" to the whole system, but I think saying GNU/Linux is better, because you show some gratitude to GNU.

I wasn't preaching and I don't preach anything, but most noobs don't know that there is a difference and since guzhead says himself: "I'm a n00b" and his friend tells him such a thing then I decided to explain what was right and wrong on his friend's statement.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2005 8:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

pablo_supertux wrote:
Cinder6 wrote:
Saying "Linux" nowadays means the same thing. Stop preaching.



It may be, but it is wrong. I know people say "Linux" to the whole system, but I think saying GNU/Linux is better, because you show some gratitude to GNU.

I wasn't preaching and I don't preach anything, but most noobs don't know that there is a difference and since guzhead says himself: "I'm a n00b" and his friend tells him such a thing then I decided to explain what was right and wrong on his friend's statement.

IMNSHO it is clear that the OP's friend was refering to distributions and that you are preaching.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2005 5:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
It may be, but it is wrong. I know people say "Linux" to the whole system, but I think saying GNU/Linux is better, because you show some gratitude to GNU.


Hey, let's think of it as
Code:
alias linux="GNU/Linux"
:P

Dlareh, actually, I was referring to those who posted that he is right and Linux is only a kernel (which IS correct, but annoys me). And yes, I was preaching.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2005 8:04 pm    Post subject: GNU/Linux and learning Reply with quote

Well I would have to tell your friend that he doesn't know anything but the GUI. He doesn't know how the scripts run, and doesn't know how variables are being pulled down, and all of the scripts that are starting X. In other words the saying "Gentoo doesn't teach linux" is as dumb as rocks. Quite to the contrary is what is happening. I have been able to fix, and work on all of the other distros, and get them running when their scripts have failed. Give me a distro and I can fix it because of Gentoo. If you wanto to understand the under the hood workings of a GNU/Linux distro then Gentoo is the best to offer. Gentoo also has what I consider the best devepment environment because of the compilers, and autotools being included, and the libraries being put where they should be. It is also easier to get people to test the new software because then you just post an ebuild on your website with the depencies, and when emergeing the new software the dependincies are pulled down for you. The version of the packages are met, and optimizations are used, and the executables are correctly linked against the libraries you have. I have had a few problems with RPM's linking correctly because some of the packages didn't have the correct options compiled into them. Hence with all of that hardwork with RPM's they are still experiencing dependency hell. 8)
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2005 9:20 pm    Post subject: Re: GNU/Linux and learning Reply with quote

rapsure wrote:
Hence with all of that hardwork with RPM's they are still experiencing dependency hell. 8)

I somehow think this is more a problem with the competence of people building RPMs and repositories, and not the package manager itself. There is a difference between knowing your own package and knowing the entire system, the big picture ( read: linking correctly with what
RPMLinux 23 has ). For similar reasons we will be getting a x86 arch team.
https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=104525

Besides, Gentoo has some flavour of the library hell, which revdep is intented to cope with.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2005 10:14 pm    Post subject: Re: GNU/Linux and learning Reply with quote

rapsure wrote:
Hence with all of that hardwork with RPM's they are still experiencing dependency hell. 8)
"Dependecy Hell" is now not much of a problem anymore thanks to tools like Yum (which has been adopted as Fedora's official package manager).

Edit: Spelling correction.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2005 11:03 pm    Post subject: Re: GNU/Linux and learning Reply with quote

codergeek42 wrote:
rapsure wrote:
Hence with all of that hardwork with RPM's they are still experiencing dependency hell. 8)
"Dependcy Hell" is now not much of a problem anymore thanks to tools like Yum (which has been adopted as Fedora's official package manager).
You know there are two types of lies in this world, there are lies and then there are damned lies. This is a damned lie Yum does abosolutely nothing to fix dependency hell since it still cripples itself by essentially requiring that software to be installed through yum else bad things will eventually start happening to you. I can't seem to successfuly get xine based stuff to behave properly [I have to compile more codecs just haven't had time.] with my source install of xine-lib, and I have to figure out how to switch to gcc3 or find a gcc4 patch for mplayerpre7try2 to build. It just creates a bunch of annoying problems when you try to do anything outside of yum, because eventually rpm's like evidence won't install properly because xine-lib can't be found even though its in the right place. That is what dependency hell is not simply having to track down all of the files, I really hate it when people say dependency hell isn't much of a problem when every single last one of the package managers posses the same exact problem, which no one seems to want to address.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2005 11:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Back in the days of FC2, at least (when I used it), there was no apparent way to grab all of XFce with one command. You had to go through the pleasure of getting every rpm required for it. Yay! (basically, Yum isn't perfect, either, but better than things used to be)
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2005 11:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cinder6 wrote:
Back in the days of FC2, at least (when I used it), there was no apparent way to grab all of XFce with one command. You had to go through the pleasure of getting every rpm required for it. Yay! (basically, Yum isn't perfect, either, but better than things used to be)
I agree that yum in fc2 sucked, and it has gotten much better.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2005 11:26 pm    Post subject: Re: GNU/Linux and learning Reply with quote

Shadow Skill wrote:
Yum does abosolutely nothing to fix dependency hell since it still cripples itself by essentially requiring that software to be installed through yum else bad things will eventually start happening to you.
And? Bad things eventually will happen to a Gentoo system if you install lots of things outside of Portage an or install things on Debian/Ubuntu externally from dpkg/APT. Heck, if you're having problems because you're installing something outside of your distribution's package manager, that's your fault, and not that of the distribution or its package manager.
Quote:
I have to figure out how to switch to gcc3 or find a gcc4 patch for mplayerpre7try2 to build.
Add livna to your repository and run `yum install mplayer` as root. Or you can use Gentoo's GCC4 patch.
Quote:
It just creates a bunch of annoying problems when you try to do anything outside of yum, because eventually rpm's like evidence won't install properly because xine-lib can't be found even though its in the right place. That is what dependency hell is not simply having to track down all of the files, I really hate it when people say dependency hell isn't much of a problem when every single last one of the package managers posses the same exact problem, which no one seems to want to address.
The error is not that of the package manager. The errors are because you're installing things outside of that package manager. As I said above, Bad Things(tm) will happen on any distribution if you start installing a lot of things externally to its package management tool.
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