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Obi-Lan
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 02, 2005 8:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Q-collective wrote:
Obi-Lan wrote:
I know there's opengl but is it good?

Erm, ofcourse it is good, why wouldn't it be?


Okay had to ask because honestly I wasn't sure. :? OpenGL is multiplatform so you can use it in Windows also but what is the main reason for game developers to use DirectX instead of OpenGL? Does it lack something (3D effects?) or is it just because MS forces them somehow.

Suicidal wrote:
The only thing that is truly keeping Microsofts head above water is the fact the we have a generation of so called IT professionals that know absolutely nothing but Windows.


Yes and thats because schools and Microsoft trains people to Windows only. So they know only about Windows, they get a job with Windows, are happy and do nothing more. I think for people who started to use computers with Windows 95 or newer, linux console may be a monster. And in Windows you can do all stuff with mouse and if you're not sure what to do you just klik stuff more with your mouse and it's done. In Linux you have to know what you are doing. Which can be a problem for someone.
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Matteo Azzali
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 02, 2005 9:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Obi-Lan wrote:

Okay had to ask because honestly I wasn't sure. :? OpenGL is multiplatform so you can use it in Windows also but what is the main reason for game developers to use DirectX instead of OpenGL? Does it lack something (3D effects?) or is it just because MS forces them somehow.


there are 3 motivation:
1) DirectX is not only graphical : directsound, directinput ,etc. that makes windows programmers continue using same api, same manual, etc. etc.

2) DirectX has MS support : more advertising,more tools in-one-package (and when you program a game, everything that makes your life easier is good)

3) Some graphic card manufacturer (I know Ati but there can be more) just don't have very-good opengl drivers (both windows and linux, for ati)

One of the "linux hope" to have good ports is Ogre3D , that can be used to compile games that will run on both
DirectX and OpenGL (in windows) and semplify the port from win to linux (ogre is also for linux, is opensource, LGPL licensed).
If you plan to write a game, please consider Ogre.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 02, 2005 1:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just installed longhorn / vista :)

After a long and difficult install (took about 2.5 hours, just to get through setup, and even longer to get my hardware working).

But now that's it running, I quite like it actually. Transparancy is nice. I also like the new progress bars. I keep getting a lot of bugs, especially in the "normal" start menu, classis seems to work better.

I just use windows for games, so I "upgraded" my Win2k install to try it. Windows will remain my "toy" OS.

Quote:
User Agent Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.0; en-US; rv:1.7.10) Gecko/20050716 Firefox/1.0.6


Screenshot: http://rainmaker.homelinux.com/Screen-Long.PNG
Crowded: http://rainmaker.homelinux.com/Screen-Long2.PNG
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 02, 2005 2:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Am I the only one that thinks Longhorn's interface is incredibly ugly beyond belief? I can't stand anything about that interface at all - I just don't think I could use it.
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Mo6eB
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 02, 2005 2:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mdave wrote:
Am I the only one that thinks Longhorn's interface is incredibly ugly beyond belief? I can't stand anything about that interface at all - I just don't think I could use it.


I wouldn't say ugly, it looks nice, but it looks as if the developers just started thinking "Now, what other cool feature can we add?" without caring how they all work together. It looks like they chose a random style for each widget. It just doesn't look integrated.
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Matteo Azzali
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 02, 2005 10:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rainmaker wrote:

Crowded: http://rainmaker.homelinux.com/Screen-Long2.PNG

Wow, they rediscovered the wheel!!!! Asking for admin privileges as su kdesu gnomesu
are doin since some years..... :D
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2005 1:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Matteo Azzali wrote:
Rainmaker wrote:

Crowded: http://rainmaker.homelinux.com/Screen-Long2.PNG

Wow, they rediscovered the wheel!!!! Asking for admin privileges as su kdesu gnomesu
are doin since some years..... :D
LMAO Longhorn might actually be useable as a normal user if this remains in the final build. Is that file manager in the screenshotexplorer or some third party app? I must have a dual pane filemanager it would be nice if explorer supported such a mode.
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 14, 2005 10:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

noup wrote:
mikegpitt wrote:
noup wrote:
mikegpitt wrote:

First off, I think Linux on the desktop has caught up with Windows years ago, and now we are really seeing some innovative things... that MS will surely copy on Longhorn, then claim them as new and revolutionary, and claim Linux is only copying them. Watch, this WILL happen, and it pisses me off to no end.

So, you mean you would give a Linux Desktop system to a novice just as you would give him/her a Windows system? I quite disagree.
Well others have pretty much replicated what I will say, but since the question was directed to me I'll respond too :)

Yes I would give a linux desktop to 'regular' people, and I have many times. Actually every time I have, they actually like it much better than Windows. Usually they are comming from a typical Windows machine where you would find lots of spyware and a virus or two. Some of them have just used Windows for a while, and the performance degraded over time (which is typical). They hear me talk about linux all the time and become interested... and love it.

I install gentoo on their system, because I feel I can customize it from scratch to suit them and their needs.

Although I had one friend who accidently deleted his boot partition, when messing around, later downloaded Ubuntu and Fedora and installed them himself. Rememebr this is not a hard core computer guy. Just a regular person. (He actually perfered Gentoo better, so I still need to reinstall for him.)

I could go on but there is no point...

Well, those are just people who find interest in it. I don't find many of those as you do, so as it seems. And also, i don't see them ever reinstalling an O.S., so they won't certainly try different linux distributions... So, i really don't think we're talking about the same kinds of people here. If everybody you talk to starts using linux, then why isn't everybody using linux? Is it because we don't talk and convince enough? I don't think so...


I think it all started long ago. Windows 95 was THE OS when it came out. Everybody started using it, but if you would feeded a linux distribution from today to that same crowd (knowing mainly windows 3.11 or dos, so not using it much) people would have started using linux almost as easily as windows. I always think of it that it took me years and years to learn what I know now about windows. I used that knowledge to learn to work with linux within a few months. It's not that people know how to use windows in a few months. People tend to forget that starting to learn windows isn't that easy at all. Compare it with your grandma seeing a computer for the first time. They are even scared of the keybord!

I see a lot of users (even students at university) that can't even install a program on windows. people that are able to use windows also find interest in it but forget how long it took to learn it. I think the difference here is that those people have enough other people around to ask a question, which is not the case for linux (I'm talking about real live contacts!)

just my thoughts. sorry if it doesn't make much sence, I'm tired...:roll:

to go back on topic. I thought most of the features that microsoft wanted to accomplish were already thrown away because they couldn't get it decent in time. or did I read that wrong somewhere?
I wouldn't worry too much about winfs.
transparency, well, didn't linux copy it from MacOS?
fast bootup? euh, I didn't try the latest windows-release, but considering the amount of programs I start during the bootup of gentoo, my gentoosystem starts up much faster than windows 2000, even without using initng. I guess people just start excepting that windows starts slow because they don't know any other thing that boots faster. BTW, windows 2000/3 and XP start relatively fast because they start a lot of things after you log in, while linux starts most things before that (except with gnome and kde I guess, but I don't use that).

Johan
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IvanHoe
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2005 3:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rainmaker wrote:
...I quite like it actually. Transparancy is nice. I also like the new progress bars.

Windows Vista has a lot of whizz-bang to distract from the "trusted computing" features.
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Q-collective
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2005 5:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

IvanHoe wrote:
Rainmaker wrote:
...I quite like it actually. Transparancy is nice. I also like the new progress bars.

Windows Vista has a lot of whizz-bang to distract from the "trusted computing" features.

Yeah, Longho.. erm Vista's true new features are all DRM related crap, I think it's a wonder in itself that people are actually going to buy it and thus lockin themselves in completely out of free will...
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legine
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 20, 2005 8:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Q-Collective, that comes with the thought of Lack of choice.
Most people do not want to switch all they loved software. Sometimes this pieces are realy old. I know people who just complain that they have to switch. For others it is a pain in the but to learn how to copy stuff.
These people are right to use a crap like Windows. It is an OS that does all the unloved things they think they do not want to bother with.
I put my hope in the ReactOS project for this type of user. Maybe that will change a bit in the Attitude of them :D
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 20, 2005 9:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

legine wrote:
Q-Collective, that comes with the thought of Lack of choice.
Most people do not want to switch all they loved software. Sometimes this pieces are realy old. I know people who just complain that they have to switch.

Why would they need to switch at all? One could use windows 2000 for as long as one likes.
Quote:
These people are right to use a crap like Windows. It is an OS that does all the unloved things they think they do not want to bother with.

I disagree, ever tried Ubuntu? Or ever heard about MacOSX?
Quote:
I put my hope in the ReactOS project for this type of user. Maybe that will change a bit in the Attitude of them :D

I don't see ReactOS as a solution, but it is a nice project to speedup WineHQ development ;)
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 20, 2005 1:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I disagree, ever tried Ubuntu? Or ever heard about MacOSX?

No I didnt try. MayOS is the same. MacOS X i hered of. Its no success here in germany. I believe that SuSE is more known than this at the "barbaric users"
Ever tryed to run certain hardware on Linux it is still a pain in the bud sometimes. (Look at Ipod or some sony Products)
Ever tried to talk with a guy who thinks copying a file is difficult? Or someone who does not like to change?
Still most argument at the younger generation to hit everything else to death is the lacking support in games.

*sight* I hope wine will as they think and get in 1 year a 80 % compability to Windows like they said now their aiming at.

Quote:
Why would they need to switch at all? One could use windows 2000 for as long as one likes.

Sure. You can but how long. Okey they still produce patches for NT 4.0 and 98 but I believe MS will put pressure on that a lot of people will switch to the new system.

Quote:
I don't see ReactOS as a solution, but it is a nice project to speedup WineHQ development ;)


For Linux that is true. But I see the development there. With the improvement of wine they will be getting better too. And IMO this is the only alternative in the near future for people who do not want to learn something new.

I will try ubuntu. If it is realy easy then I will se if I can convince a friend to give it a try. :D This would be great!!
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 20, 2005 2:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mo6eB wrote:
mdave wrote:
Am I the only one that thinks Longhorn's interface is incredibly ugly beyond belief? I can't stand anything about that interface at all - I just don't think I could use it.


I wouldn't say ugly, it looks nice, but it looks as if the developers just started thinking "Now, what other cool feature can we add?" without caring how they all work together. It looks like they chose a random style for each widget. It just doesn't look integrated.

Kind of like the Linux desktop.
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 21, 2005 9:31 pm    Post subject: The Linux Desktop Reply with quote

Recently The Linux Link Tech Show, episode #95, interviewed Eric S. Raymond who claims that Linux won't be ready for the desktop until documentation isn't required. It should just work and make resonable guesses. I'd have to agree with him. It's nice to have lots of options but I would, on occasion, just use a program and not have to dig through docs and forums to figure out how to get it what I want it to do.

:D

Windows software still doesn't always do this and this includes pay software!
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legine
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2005 2:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Recently The Linux Link Tech Show, episode #95, interviewed Eric S. Raymond who claims that Linux won't be ready for the desktop until documentation isn't required. It should just work and make resonable guesses. I'd have to agree with him. It's nice to have lots of options but I would, on occasion, just use a program and not have to dig through docs and forums to figure out how to get it what I want it to do.


This is a stupid attitute. Let me explain.
I have read a test in germans biggest Computer magazine some years ago.
In this test they took 20 inexperienced in Computer technology, 10 got a Linux system 10 got at the time latest windows system. The task was installation of the system. The resultwas that both managed to do and to get the system work. And both had the same amount of difficulties to solve.

I bet if you make the same test then you will experience that the same testers will have an equally learning curve when it comes to tasks like copy stuff, work on documents and so on.
The main differences are:
a) most people have worked on Windows. So for them it is easier to get used to a Windows layout then to a Linux layout. On Linux they have to start all over. (At least when you look at it you do not know what works the same and whats new.)

b) You need more Documentation the deeper you get into the system. A not documentated system is the worsed type of tool you can get.
For this point take a look in other fields of technologies:
- Microwave. This cookingtool comes always shiped with a manual (Documentation). Mostly with funny comments like:
dont put your cat into the microwave for drying
- Weapons of the Military have printed Manuals on it so the soldier can use it properly in an emergency (no joke!)
- Car. If you ever buy a car without a manual, you wont know how to handle your car properly. And you run in danger of breaking it without knowing what you have done wrong.

You see there are stuff with a lot less buttons then an ordonary PC has, with a lot of less configuration to attend to have NManuals. These Documents are important. You get informed of the correct working order and you know how to take care of it so you can use the system for a long time.

I never saw a nice Manual for Windows. Maybe thats the cause that a lot of people I know reinstall their system from time to time because they do not know what they can do.
Since Documents are not pointing you in the right direction fast, you need others which you can share your Problems with. The Community will helps you to solve your anomalities with the pc fast and relieable. I do not know any other field where Forums are used in the same intensity like for PC software (followed by cartunig I bet :) )

So in the end if you take all what I said away. You get a system that keeps you stuipid, helpless and ignorrant to new ideas. And someday you will hopefully recognize that this is a dream that wont come true. somebody on the way lied to you.
Even the Windows system (the cause of this attitude) does need the Documentation. And because of the complicated layout it has the solutions the Problems are complicated too. (look at the registry and how many solutions in case of problems are pointing in this direction)

Dont get me wrong a perfect system would be great! I would be happiest if all the stuff I use and try works like I want it to work. But the truce is my bneeds often collides with what other people need / wants. So IMO it is better to have a documentation and a good Community to get there where I want to be. The alternativly would be (for me) to be alone and helpless!

Cheers
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2005 11:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

^ This is what I've allways been saying too. It is more 'user friendly' because it is preinstalled. That's all, nothing less, nothing more.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2005 11:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The problem I find is the most crucial in linux is the hardware support. If you plan to buy a new highend PC, you cannot rely on driver CD-s coming with it (they are actually as useful as cathair). If the manufacturers would provide drivers for Linux as for Windows then many problems would be solved.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2005 11:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I never needed a driver... Except for NVIDIA's graphic cards. All drivers are included in the kernel you know...
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2005 1:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

v_rainer wrote:
The problem I find is the most crucial in linux is the hardware support. If you plan to buy a new highend PC, you cannot rely on driver CD-s coming with it (they are actually as useful as cathair). If the manufacturers would provide drivers for Linux as for Windows then many problems would be solved.

Are you really using Linux? All latest drivers to almost all the newest hardware are included in kernel already.:wink:
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2005 6:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kensai wrote:
v_rainer wrote:
The problem I find is the most crucial in linux is the hardware support. If you plan to buy a new highend PC, you cannot rely on driver CD-s coming with it (they are actually as useful as cathair). If the manufacturers would provide drivers for Linux as for Windows then many problems would be solved.

Are you really using Linux? All latest drivers to almost all the newest hardware are included in kernel already.:wink:


This is maybe the biggest problem for Windows users migrating to Linux. It's difficult to realize that you don't need to serach for drivers that work or google for software. You simply plug in a device and it works (assuming you haven't compiled the kernel yourself using only the modules you need. on the other hand... if you can do that, you know how to recompile it with support for the new hardware) or get the software from distro's package management. And no more astalavista... on most cases.

I just re-installed Windows on a few laptops at work. Installing Windows and all the needed drivers from the cd and making the necesary reboots took possibly even more time than stage3 installation (installing also Xorg and Fluxbox) on my 1,2GHz Athlon. Ok. Installing Gentoo is fast when you have everything ready and know what to do. But so it is for Windows. Rebooting the damn thing all the time while installing the drivers took most of the time.

Anyways my point is: Most new Linux users think Linux works like Windows and thats causing problems.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2005 7:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kensai wrote:
v_rainer wrote:
The problem I find is the most crucial in linux is the hardware support. If you plan to buy a new highend PC, you cannot rely on driver CD-s coming with it (they are actually as useful as cathair). If the manufacturers would provide drivers for Linux as for Windows then many problems would be solved.

Are you really using Linux? All latest drivers to almost all the newest hardware are included in kernel already.:wink:
That's why I still can't get all of the mouse and keyboard buttons to work properly [if at all in the case of some of the keyboards buttpns.] even though it should be possible with the tools I have found in my searches. It would be infinetly simpler if Logitech just made drivers for Linux/BSD so I could have complete functionality, my digital camera also does not have any support native either [an experimental (last I checked) does exist though I never got it to work for me.]but oh wait all the drivers are in the Kernel right? Only someone living on Mars would question whether someone is using Linux or not when they bring up the rather crummy state of drivers for Linux especially for peripgeral devices. Let's not forget the crap that passes for ATI display drivers [Granted they are a but better than they were before but still.] people.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2005 8:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's a different matter. You can't make an open driver if you don't know how the device works. Companies don't need to make drivers, it's enough to make device specifications available. Instead, they choose not to, so we have to rely on their drivers which, for non-Microsoft systems at least, are crappy or don't exist at all. Or, some desperate developers try to make an open driver by guessing, reverse-engeneering and such, producing never-quite-finished or no-glx-acceleration drivers.

It's not a problem with linux, it's a problem with device manufacturers. Many a windows driver is a pile of crap, too. I once had a camera on windows whose driver crashed randomly and consumed all of available CPU. Some other camera (Creative's, I think) worked just fine, and with the same video software.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2005 9:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

No its not a different matter V_rainer was simply saying the hardware support is somewhat lacking he even says if the manufacturers would make drivers things would be better. The last two people after him are acting like there is no problem, the last guy is the worst one living in some fantasy world where people trying out Linux for the first time are so completely brain dead that they somehow don't realize that their hardware is already functioning normally. Which would have to be the case if [peripherals especially] really just worked and were fully functional.
Here is the statement in question:


Quote:
This is maybe the biggest problem for Windows users migrating to Linux. It's difficult to realize that you don't need to serach for drivers that work or google for software. You simply plug in a device and it works (assuming you haven't compiled the kernel yourself using only the modules you need. on the other hand... if you can do that, you know how to recompile it with support for the new hardware) or get the software from distro's package management. And no more astalavista... on most cases.

I just re-installed Windows on a few laptops at work. Installing Windows and all the needed drivers from the cd and making the necesary reboots took possibly even more time than stage3 installation (installing also Xorg and Fluxbox) on my 1,2GHz Athlon. Ok. Installing Gentoo is fast when you have everything ready and know what to do. But so it is for Windows. Rebooting the damn thing all the time while installing the drivers took most of the time.

Anyways my point is: Most new Linux users think Linux works like Windows and thats causing problems.
While the last statement is pretty much correct it doesn't really apply to the hardware support situation.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2005 9:25 am    Post subject: Re: The Linux Desktop Reply with quote

saskman wrote:
Recently The Linux Link Tech Show, episode #95, interviewed Eric S. Raymond who claims that Linux won't be ready for the desktop until documentation isn't required. It should just work and make resonable guesses. I'd have to agree with him. It's nice to have lots of options but I would, on occasion, just use a program and not have to dig through docs and forums to figure out how to get it what I want it to do.

:D

Windows software still doesn't always do this and this includes pay software!



The same arguement can be used for Windows.
As different parts of linux have been upgraded the only part that needed a few min getting use to was the GNOME-1.4 to GNOEM-2.0 just since it was a big change, but even then everything made sense.

Windows on the other had make soo many changes, but pride themselves on being the same. Every single windows release you have to spend a good day re-learning how to do stuff and disabling the annoying features (correction reading the documentation to disable those annoying features).

Take at work we just upgradeed from OfficeXP to Office2k3 and it took ages to disable this so called -preview fucntion for email attachments

Trust me we do not have to do anything
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