Gentoo Forums
Gentoo Forums
Gentoo Forums
Quick Search: in
"Writing ebuilds" by Ciaran McCreesh .. removed??
View unanswered posts
View posts from last 24 hours

Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10  Next  
Reply to topic    Gentoo Forums Forum Index Gentoo Chat
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Pythonhead
Developer
Developer


Joined: 16 Dec 2002
Posts: 1801
Location: Redondo Beach, Republic of Calif.

PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2005 3:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ag_x wrote:
Ok i know there many importants polls in the OTW,such as: "which is the *x best editor?Vim -emacs -joe -ed etc"

Could we add one more.please?
Could we (the gentoo userbase) have the right to vote for the gentoo future?
And the general forum votes,could be add as a small persentage to whole voting procedure?
And finally who is responsible to anser to my request (which i believe is a general demand)?


Write a GLEP and submit it. Your suggestion is wide open to voter fraud though of course.
http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/glep/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
ag_x
Tux's lil' helper
Tux's lil' helper


Joined: 11 Jun 2004
Posts: 142
Location: Self Sarkarm.

PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2005 4:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pythonhead wrote:
ag_x wrote:
Ok i know there many importants polls in the OTW,such as: "which is the *x best editor?Vim -emacs -joe -ed etc"

Could we add one more.please?
Could we (the gentoo userbase) have the right to vote for the gentoo future?
And the general forum votes,could be add as a small persentage to whole voting procedure?
And finally who is responsible to anser to my request (which i believe is a general demand)?


Write a GLEP and submit it. Your suggestion is wide open to voter fraud though of course.
http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/glep/


Ok thanks.

Could be someone with proper english can do this for me?
The first one will do it,please post here.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
cokey
Advocate
Advocate


Joined: 23 Apr 2004
Posts: 3343

PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2005 4:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pythonhead wrote:
cokehabit wrote:
See, that is exactly what i was speaking about before... All we are left to do is sit and wonder about why they cannot give a simple reason when they have taken such a big step, and if the starting reason were comments made on the forum that violated policy and the finishing reason was an ungracious email to a member of devrel, just say it.
Have you asked them for an answer? I doubt they are reading this and it might not be fair to Ciaran to have devrel speaking about him while he doesn't have the opportunity to respond, so maybe you won't get one until his suspension is over.
Exactly my point again! None of this would have occurred if the facts had have been made known in the first place! It all would have blown over by now but what is keeping it alive is the uncertanity.

We need a forum or list, Gentoo-Announce where devrel and other can say what they have done and why. How else are they going to be held accountable if they have done something wrong? We need somewhere where it can be discussed in a sensible manner like it is being here.

Either that or take 5 normal users who you feel should keep the rest of the community in touch. Then feelings can be made known. Personally I just think that keeping everyone in the dark is just detremental to Gentoo as the distribution thrives on its community which is like no other.
_________________
"Sex: breakfast of champions" - James Hunt
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
cokey
Advocate
Advocate


Joined: 23 Apr 2004
Posts: 3343

PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2005 4:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ag_x wrote:
Pythonhead wrote:
ag_x wrote:
Ok i know there many importants polls in the OTW,such as: "which is the *x best editor?Vim -emacs -joe -ed etc"

Could we add one more.please?
Could we (the gentoo userbase) have the right to vote for the gentoo future?
And the general forum votes,could be add as a small persentage to whole voting procedure?
And finally who is responsible to anser to my request (which i believe is a general demand)?
Write a GLEP and submit it. Your suggestion is wide open to voter fraud though of course.
http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/glep/
Ok thanks.

Could be someone with proper english can do this for me?
The first one will do it,please post here.
why should people that dont know of Ciaran or what he has done vote on whether he should stay or be banned?
_________________
"Sex: breakfast of champions" - James Hunt
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
ag_x
Tux's lil' helper
Tux's lil' helper


Joined: 11 Jun 2004
Posts: 142
Location: Self Sarkarm.

PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2005 4:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

@Cokehabit
I m not talking about ciaranm's case.
I m talking about this.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
j-m
Retired Dev
Retired Dev


Joined: 31 Oct 2004
Posts: 975

PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2005 5:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cokehabit wrote:
why should people that dont know of Ciaran or what he has done vote on whether he should stay or be banned?


I don´t think that this is what the proposal aimed at... :?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
cokey
Advocate
Advocate


Joined: 23 Apr 2004
Posts: 3343

PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2005 5:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ag_x wrote:
@Cokehabit
I m not talking about ciaranm's case.
I m talking about this.
Gotcha.

Anyway, something needs to be done, are devrel going to make their reasons known? If not its just going to continually look like Ciaran was banned for saying love-sources (and other kernels) are going downhill and that there is no OpenSolaris port... Some sort of statement need to be made before this gets out of hand. If there is a reason to keep us in the dark then just come out and say it so i dont have to keep writing on this thread.
_________________
"Sex: breakfast of champions" - James Hunt
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
firephoto
Veteran
Veteran


Joined: 29 Oct 2003
Posts: 1580
Location: +48° 5' 23.40", -119° 48' 30.00"

PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2005 5:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

From an organizational structure point of view the proper actions have been taken. Any organization can be ruined by one bad attitude even if that attitude keeps a lot of things or people in check. Ciaran was great at taking care of vim and fluxbox and whatever else was his to maintain but he was also good at dismantling anything that he didn't agree or believe in with endless trolling and blunt conclusions that were basicly like "I know, you don't, so shutup". Now why should a dev go out of their way to stall other users or devs projects because they don't like them or they don't like the dev involved? They shouldn't because there's no place for that kind of thing in any organization because it's disruptive and just leads to a lot of time getting wasted and possibly people abandoning their projects or quitting their role as dev.

I've dealt with these things before, sometimes you have to take any excuse to get rid of someone because they know they are always walking a thin line so when they screw up you take action. Other times they just strike out one too many times and that leads to them going down the road to do something else and even if it's someone you like or a friend that's the only solution sometimes.
_________________
#gentoo-kde on freenode
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
sjs
n00b
n00b


Joined: 08 Jun 2005
Posts: 6
Location: Vancouver Island

PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2005 5:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alright, just a user who wants to voice his opinion. Not looking for a flamewar.

Ciaran has less tact than most (understatement). But he was honest at least. He was involved in vim, and not just writing the ebuild for it. Everyone who's edited make.conf, package.*, or a bunch of other config files with vim surely appreciated the gentoo-syntax package. I doubt anyone will step up to maintain and improve that any time soon. Then there's eclectic which he was involved in, "TheDoc" which is really great. I'm sure there are other things he's involved in that I don't know about.

Perhaps he is too critical of others work, but it is only because he is concerned with quality which is hardly a bad trait! Some people need to learn to handle some criticism and Ciaran needs to learn to be a little more constructive with what he dishes out. So no one's perfect and everyone has learning and growing up to do. You'd think people would quickly learn that this is his manner, and to take everything he says in stride.

So no matter what you think about his personality, at least he was an active developer contributing lots of time, code, and documentation to the Gentoo project. Are we better off if he gets booted or decides to leave and packs up his work to take with him? As he mentioned, people scrambling to find caches of his websites (myself included before I read this thread) would have to make me think not.

But I'm just a user and no I don't know the whole story. But I for one would like to him contribute more work to the Gentoo projects.
_________________
"with us over here, and them over there, barbed wire borders, we're going nowhere" -- nofx
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Genone
Retired Dev
Retired Dev


Joined: 14 Mar 2003
Posts: 9185
Location: beyond the rim

PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2005 5:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok, who here has actually asked devrel directly about this? Because you can ask here sa much as you want, if noone from devrel reads it here (and I wouldn't rely on avenj still reading this) there is little chance to get an answer here.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
beu
Retired Dev
Retired Dev


Joined: 03 Mar 2004
Posts: 22
Location: London, UK

PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2005 5:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cokehabit wrote:
Ciaran, for all his inability to judge how he was getting on the wrong side of people, was excellent at his job. He also imparted information to those users and devs who didn't have his knowlege which made him a valuable asset. Now, after making an example of him dont you think that thee can be LOTS to learn from this?


Agree with you there, t'is a shame :/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
cokey
Advocate
Advocate


Joined: 23 Apr 2004
Posts: 3343

PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2005 6:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Genone wrote:
Ok, who here has actually asked devrel directly about this? Because you can ask here sa much as you want, if noone from devrel reads it here (and I wouldn't rely on avenj still reading this) there is little chance to get an answer here.
Yes, I have made plasmaroo aware of the thread so if they want to take positives and negatives out of it then they can.
_________________
"Sex: breakfast of champions" - James Hunt
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
loki99
Advocate
Advocate


Joined: 10 Oct 2003
Posts: 2056
Location: Vienna, €urope

PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2005 6:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pythonhead wrote:

I think you found most of the info but all the new proposals were just posted to gentoo-dev mailing list, where you can search for the subject "Gentoo metastructure reform poll is open" if you subscribe, or gmane:
http://article.gmane.org/gmane.linux.gentoo.devel/28603


Thanx for the link. I guess I'll do some reading tonite! :wink:
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
tsunam
Retired Dev
Retired Dev


Joined: 23 Feb 2004
Posts: 343

PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2005 9:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cokehabit wrote:

Either that or take 5 normal users who you feel should keep the rest of the community in touch. Then feelings can be made known. Personally I just think that keeping everyone in the dark is just detremental to Gentoo as the distribution thrives on its community which is like no other.


I actually concur with this thought..i brought it up earlier but believe coke was a bit more direct in his approach of it.

Genone wrote:
Ok, who here has actually asked devrel directly about this? Because you can ask here sa much as you want, if noone from devrel reads it here (and I wouldn't rely on avenj still reading this) there is little chance to get an answer here.


I have, and am awaiting a response of some kind
_________________
I'm not afraid of happy endings, just afraid my life wont work that way.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
sjs
n00b
n00b


Joined: 08 Jun 2005
Posts: 6
Location: Vancouver Island

PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2005 10:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And also, since dev rules don't apply to users and we cannot be chastised, what if we started asking about Gentoo/OpenSolaris? I for one have not seen it mentioned on -user, -dev nor Planet Gentoo. I've seen lots about Gentoo/MacOSX and Gentoo/*BSD. Is this going to get me banned from the forums? IMO these are valid questions for anyone -- user, dev, or both -- to ask.

If some people simply have differences and do not like Ciaran have the guts to come out and say it. The sooner someone resonds the sooner we can move on and agree "nothing to see here", or the opposite. I have a feeling there really is nothing to see here, but if we could at least get some answers about giving commit access to people known to break the tree severely, whether that is true or not, it would probably put some of us at ease. The hand-waving Ciaran mentioned about that issue should be worrying to many. If it could be confirmed or denied that would be nice.

As cardoe so eloquently put it, "If you expect EVERYONE to be understanding and non-offensive. Step back and relax..."

The world needs more relaxation. People are too high-strung. Ciaran included.
_________________
"with us over here, and them over there, barbed wire borders, we're going nowhere" -- nofx
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
cokey
Advocate
Advocate


Joined: 23 Apr 2004
Posts: 3343

PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2005 11:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sjs wrote:
And also, since dev rules don't apply to users and we cannot be chastised, what if we started asking about Gentoo/OpenSolaris?
damn, you'll be throwing your wang about next...
_________________
"Sex: breakfast of champions" - James Hunt
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Pythonhead
Developer
Developer


Joined: 16 Dec 2002
Posts: 1801
Location: Redondo Beach, Republic of Calif.

PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2005 11:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sjs wrote:
And also, since dev rules don't apply to users and we cannot be chastised, what if we started asking about Gentoo/OpenSolaris? I for one have not seen it mentioned on -user, -dev nor Planet Gentoo. I've seen lots about Gentoo/MacOSX and Gentoo/*BSD. Is this going to get me banned from the forums? IMO these are valid questions for anyone -- user, dev, or both -- to ask.


There is no order we can't talk about OpenSolaris or Love-sources. Or anything, as long as it fits with the developer guide policy which was pointed out. Ciaran made personal attacks on the developer working on OpenSolaris and the volunteers at the GWN who wrote about it. Heres the OpenSolaris that doesn't exist:
http://dev.gentoo.org/~pvdabeel/solaris/

Is it official, will it ever be? I don't know.

Quote:

If some people simply have differences and do not like Ciaran have the guts to come out and say it. The sooner someone resonds the sooner we can move on and agree "nothing to see here", or the opposite. I have a feeling there really is nothing to see here, but if we could at least get some answers about giving commit access to people known to break the tree severely, whether that is true or not, it would probably put some of us at ease. The hand-waving Ciaran mentioned about that issue should be worrying to many. If it could be confirmed or denied that would be nice.


The breaks he is talking about are found out within minutes and are fixed within minutes. If someone has left because of it, they found out the hard way that Gentoo isn't for them and they shouldn't have been using a distro that has the chance to break with every rsync no matter who gets suspended after the fact. No matter how good our QA gets, there is always a chance that an rsync will fail. if your situation dictates you can't wait an hour for an rsync then Gentoo probably doesn't fit your needs.

Did Ciaran have a good idea about making a sandbox for new developers to commit to first? Some may think so, but it needs to be discussed. He didn't submit a GLEP which he knows is required for something that takes that much manpower and equipment to setup. Experienced oldtimer developers break the tree too, but suspending them after the fact isn't going to help either. Hes not exactly shy about naming names when he has someone cornered, so I'll take his vague accusations about repeated tree breaking with a grain of salt.

sjs wrote:
The world needs more relaxation. People are too high-strung. Ciaran included.


Amen to that. Enjoy your 60 days of relaxation, I know I will.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
tsunam
Retired Dev
Retired Dev


Joined: 23 Feb 2004
Posts: 343

PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2005 12:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alright, want to fist thank Jason Huebel for responding to my inquires.

Code:
As the lead I was hoping you could answer a few questions, or at least
address some of the users concern's that were brought up in this topic
on the forums: http://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-344544.html

The highlights if you don't wish to go through the 6 pages seem to be:

Who does devrel report to when taking actions based on complaints, and
how thoroughly is a complaint investigated for
validity?

Is there an actual form to submit complaints or just by word of mouth?

Can a user see or view how and why the actions were taken and comply
with the actions stated in the devrel contract?

Thank you for taking the time to read this and hopefully reply.

Joshua


That was from me, this was the response


Code:
When receiving a complaint, devrel generally discusses the complaint
with the person reporting it and gets the relavent information.  The
complaint is the taken to the person who is the subject of that
complaint and it is discussed with them.

Complaints are generally provided by "word of mouth"-- that is, via IRC
or email.  There is no specific form available for issuing a complaint.

In the past, users were generally prevented from viewing the bug report
that is used to track a complaint.  This was to protect the person
reporting the complaint, as well as allow for private discussion of the
complaint within the devrel team.  The person who is the subject of the
complaint was generally provided the relevant information about the
complaint via email from a developer relations member, with the approval
of the entire devrel team.  The person was then given the opportunity to
comply with the changes set forth by devrel and avoid any further action.

This procedure is likely to change over the coming weeks with an
internal developer relations restructure that we have planned.  We are
working hard toward greater transparency.

Developer Relations answers (ultimately) to the other managers.
However, there are significant changes in the works for the Gentoo
organizational structure, so that may not be the case soon.

I hope this answers your questions.  If you have any further questions,
please refer them to devrel@gentoo.org and we'll try to answer them.

_________________
I'm not afraid of happy endings, just afraid my life wont work that way.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
sjs
n00b
n00b


Joined: 08 Jun 2005
Posts: 6
Location: Vancouver Island

PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2005 12:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cokehabit wrote:
damn, you'll be throwing your wang about next...


i don't get why you said this, but rest-assured it's not likely to happen. :) all i meant by that was that users cannot be "suspended".

Pythonhead wrote:
Amen to that. Enjoy your 60 days of relaxation, I know I will.


his suspension really doesn't affect me directly. i usually enjoy ciaran's posts on planet gentoo, along with most of the other devs'. apart from that, i'm glad to have TheDoc up so I can continue reading it. i'll continue to use vim and gentoo-syntax as normal.

i just hope that in 60 days we will indeed see him back here. i know this sounds really hippy-ish but it would be nice if the gentoo community (users + devs) could all remember that this is supposed to be fun. as everyone knows the community is a strong selling-point for gentoo.

i think ciaran is a productive member of the community, even if he can be an asshole sometimes. i'm not trying to excuse him from anything (as i mentioned, i don't know everything about this obviously) but it seems he's not the only one acting childish. if people aren't big enough to ignore (or even try and pick out the good in) his snide remarks, they are partly at fault as well IMO.

edit: @pythonhead: thanks for clearing up the tree-breaking thing. as long as devs are educated when they break something i suppose that's all that can be expected. i don't expect any draconian punishment for breaking the tree, unless it is a repeated occurence and the person in question simply doesn't learn. of course, testing before you commit does seem like an action that should be a given.
_________________
"with us over here, and them over there, barbed wire borders, we're going nowhere" -- nofx
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
cokey
Advocate
Advocate


Joined: 23 Apr 2004
Posts: 3343

PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2005 1:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sjs wrote:
cokehabit wrote:
damn, you'll be throwing your wang about next...
i don't get why you said this, but rest-assured it's not likely to happen. :) all i meant by that was that users cannot be "suspended".
you can guarantee that a few people did. Its to do with a new sport called "wang waving". Its caused quite a fuss in the last few weeks and if the right changes are made we need never heard of it at such a volume again.
_________________
"Sex: breakfast of champions" - James Hunt
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Pythonhead
Developer
Developer


Joined: 16 Dec 2002
Posts: 1801
Location: Redondo Beach, Republic of Calif.

PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2005 1:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sjs wrote:

edit: @pythonhead: thanks for clearing up the tree-breaking thing. as long as devs are educated when they break something i suppose that's all that can be expected. i don't expect any draconian punishment for breaking the tree, unless it is a repeated occurence and the person in question simply doesn't learn. of course, testing before you commit does seem like an action that should be a given.


No argument there. I do know that even if you test something repeatedly you can still make a bonehead move and commit something that wasn't what you just spent half an hour testing. Oops.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
nife
Tux's lil' helper
Tux's lil' helper


Joined: 24 Apr 2003
Posts: 87

PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2005 2:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The devolopers are great, but this is really the kind of stuff that does need to be made public, at least ex post facto. I understand that stuff might bee better off private during the actual action, but after it needs to be shown. Maybe today the action was suspending this dev. maybe next time the decision will be to include or exclude a ebuild that would harm my our other users system. These are all things that are decided behind closed doors. Thats not really something that makes me feel good. We as users and potential contributers of time and/or money need to feel that everything happening in the disto we use is what is in the best intrest of gentoo and by association ourselves. If we don't feel that way then the gentoo board and those who help run it are not doing their job to the best of their ability.

I know that comes off harsh, but thats the best way I could think of to phrase it.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
sjs
n00b
n00b


Joined: 08 Jun 2005
Posts: 6
Location: Vancouver Island

PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2005 2:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cokehabit wrote:
you can guarantee that a few people did. Its to do with a new sport called "wang waving". Its caused quite a fuss in the last few weeks and if the right changes are made we need never heard of it at such a volume again.


i think you misunderstood my initial comment. my apologies for not being clear, since i apparently came across as a "wang waver", as you so eloquently put it. i really did not mean it that way, although re-reading it i can see that it wasn't written very nicely.
_________________
"with us over here, and them over there, barbed wire borders, we're going nowhere" -- nofx
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
cokey
Advocate
Advocate


Joined: 23 Apr 2004
Posts: 3343

PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2005 11:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sjs wrote:
cokehabit wrote:
you can guarantee that a few people did. Its to do with a new sport called "wang waving". Its caused quite a fuss in the last few weeks and if the right changes are made we need never heard of it at such a volume again.
i think you misunderstood my initial comment. my apologies for not being clear, since i apparently came across as a "wang waver", as you so eloquently put it. i really did not mean it that way, although re-reading it i can see that it wasn't written very nicely.
no, no, no mate. I wasn't calling you a wang waver. Dont worry. Its a meaningless comment anyway
_________________
"Sex: breakfast of champions" - James Hunt
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
pitcrawler
Apprentice
Apprentice


Joined: 09 Jan 2005
Posts: 155
Location: Oklahoma, USA

PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2005 12:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've just been reading the info about the Gentoo metastructure reform proposal and it looks quite interesting. I would personally go for the FOSDEM proposal but I'd also add the "with-slacker-boot" proposal onto it. The FOSDEM proposal looks like it will provide a clear focus for each member and the "with-slacker-boot" part would make sure that people have to do their proper duties or they will get booted and a better replacement can be found quickly instead of having to hang on to slackers for a long time.
Other good things about the FOSDEM proposal: The roles are more varied and not everyone needs to know how to debug e-builds etc. People wouldn't have to do more than one type of job. It's more structured, less bureaucratic, and the actions and decisions would be easier to document. This proposal would also force each group to talk to eachother so they would always know what each group are upto.
It seems better than the current way of running things anyway. The only possible worry would be how easily they can recruit people for all the secretary jobs and suchlike.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Reply to topic    Gentoo Forums Forum Index Gentoo Chat All times are GMT
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10  Next
Page 6 of 10

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum